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[PASSED] Repeal "Commend the Western Isles"

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Bormiar
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[PASSED] Repeal "Commend the Western Isles"

Postby Bormiar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:49 pm

Having looked over the region while making this draft, I've come to respect it. For that reason, I am a) hoping someone will offer to write a replacement; and b) I have removed and will not include any clauses which attack the region. For example, while many SCers may be upset by TWI's stance that the WA is dominated by an elite group, I won't include that. This draft is purely about the quality of the resolution, which I and many others don't think does TWI justice.

The Security Council,

Certain that the main problem with “Commend the Western Isles” is that it’s predominantly a laundry list of treaties the Western Isles made. Any region can make treaties, but SC#336 does not contextualize them or explain why those treaties are of any note,

Elaborating that the organization of “Commend the Western Isles” sabotages itself; it is merely a list of treaty names, none of which are elaborated on beyond an encyclopedic, dispassionate description which fails to adequately convey why the treaties are impressive or stray from the norm,

Concluding that the “hailing” and “saluting” clauses— the clauses which refer to the treaties of the Western Isles and make up the bulk of the commendation— are merely pieces of fluff that fill space and say nothing about the Western Isles. Such fluff is characteristic of the proposal, and can also be found in the following clauses:
  • The “applauding” clause cites a “welcoming attitude” and certain helpful resources, such as a guide and mentor nations, which fail to set the Western Isles apart from a typical region. If these guides and mentorship programs are unique or particularly impressive, SC#336 failed to explain why,
  • The “applauding” clause also commends the Western Isles for having a forum for nations to talk in, a typical practice among many regions that's certainly nowhere near commendable or special,
  • The “appreciating” clause, which discussed “Citizens of The Isles” failed to explain what this “creative writing publisher” was or what made it special— the same could perhaps be said of its mention of the Western Isles News,
Noting that the aforementioned clauses make up all but the entirety of SC#336, and there is hardly anything substantive left in SC#336 to comment on,

Noticing the ridiculous “impressed” clause which implies that the Western Isles is “small”, a claim that’s not only wrong, but detracts from the idea that the Western Isles is important,

Unimpressed by the drafting of SC#336 “Commend the Western Isles”, whose author mistakenly attempted to rush the proposal to the floor of the Security Council, went silent whenever a nation provided constructive criticism, ignored or gave curt, unsubstantive responses to virtually every genuine question from voters, and failed to change the proposal very much in an absurd twelve drafts,

Finding a final blow to “Commend the Western Isles” in the fact that of the few nations which voiced support for SC#336 in the public drafting area, many did so while admitting that the proposal was too poorly written for their liking, implying that the Western Isles is respected, but the same nations which respect it feel SC#336 did not do it justice,

Concluding that SC#336 failed to provide beyond a shred of evidence of the Western Isles commendability in its pile of fluff, and if the region is commendable, a much more convincing proposal has to be created,

Hereby repeals SC#336 “Commend the Western Isles”.
Last edited by Sedgistan on Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:56 am, edited 12 times in total.

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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:51 pm

This summarizes things better than I could (bolding mine):

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:The whole point of being Commendable is that you stand out from the crowd. You have proved unable in the section I quoted to show how the nominee does this. It’s just subjective, no facts quoted to show that their new player guides or mentoring are any better than those produced by other regions.

Without some form of proof it’s just waffle. But then that’s most of this draft.

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Postby Honeydewistania » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:54 pm

I support this.
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Postby Cretox State » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:11 pm

Support. Will do a closer look later.

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Postby Pluvie » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:31 pm

I’m not for on commend TWI, not a fan of the proposal at all, but in my eyes this repeal feels like more of a personal attack at the author than the resolution and has a lot of wording that looks and feels a lot harsher and more unkind than I’ve come to expect from the usual repeal. So for that reason I’d be against on this one if it were ever to be proposed.
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:42 pm

Pluvie wrote:I’m not for on commend TWI, not a fan of the proposal at all, but in my eyes this repeal feels like more of a personal attack at the author than the resolution and has a lot of wording that looks and feels a lot harsher and more unkind than I’ve come to expect from the usual repeal. So for that reason I’d be against on this one if it were ever to be proposed.

I don't really know the dude, but I told him none of it was personal.

That being said, if it were super harsh, it would seem super personal, so I'd also like to avoid that. The clause most directed at the author is definitely the "unimpressed" clause, but in my opinion, that's all IC stuff that's also true / something we want to discourage, so I'm going to keep some form of it in. If you have any ideas on how to tone it down, I'd be happy to make changes (:.
Last edited by Bormiar on Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Indimu » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:55 pm

Bormiar wrote:
Elaborating that the mere organization of “Commend the Western Isles” sabotages itself; it is merely a boring list of treaty names, none of which are elaborated beyond an encyclopedic, dull description which makes the eyes glaze over more than it explains why the treaties are impressive

I think this might actually be the clause that feels the harshest(and the oddest?) in my mind. I agree with what it’s saying but the particular wording regarding making the eyes glaze over feels a little over the top imo and like just very odd, definitely feels like something that would be said in anger rather than something put in an official WA proposal imo

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Postby Bormiar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:57 pm

Indimu wrote:
Bormiar wrote:

I think this might actually be the clause that feels the harshest(and the oddest?) in my mind. I agree with what it’s saying but the particular wording regarding making the eyes glaze over feels a little over the top imo and like just very odd, definitely feels like something that would be said in anger rather than something put in an official WA proposal imo


Better? I changed some of the language (e.g. got rid of the words "boring" and "dull") and got rid of the eyes glazing over bit.

Elaborating that the mere organization of “Commend the Western Isles” sabotages itself; it is merely a list of treaty names, none of which are elaborated on beyond an encyclopedic, dispassionate description which fails to adequately convey why the treaties are impressive or stray from the norm,

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Postby Pluvie » Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:05 pm

First of all yes I much prefer that revision!! It feels a lot more professional and honestly more powerful of a blow imo.
Bormiar wrote:
Unimpressed by the drafting of SC#334 “Commend the Western Isles”, whose author attempted to rush the proposal to the floor of the Security Council, went radio silent whenever a nation provided constructive criticism, ignored or gave curt, unsubstantive responses to virtually every genuine question from voters, failed to change the proposal very much even in an absurd twelve drafts, and made the erroneous claim that “Commend the Western Isles” would set an important precedent for future commendations,

And also yeah my other issue is probably the last sentence of the above clause. While I do feel mentioning the issues with the authors reluctancy to defend or properly change their proposal is important, the erroneous claim remark doesn't seem needed or relevant to the resolution itself to imo I would remove it.
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:07 pm

Pluvie wrote:First of all yes I much prefer that revision!! It feels a lot more professional and honestly more powerful of a blow imo.
Bormiar wrote:

And also yeah my other issue is probably the last sentence of the above clause. While I do feel mentioning the issues with the authors reluctancy to defend or properly change their proposal is important, the erroneous claim remark doesn't seem needed or relevant to the resolution itself to imo I would remove it.

Fair enough. I'll also change that.

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Postby Greater Cesnica » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:05 pm

Alright, let's check this out.
Bormiar wrote:and failed to change the proposal very much even in an absurd twelve drafts,

Let's compare drafts here.
The Security Council,

Noting that The Western Isles has for over five years fostered a vibrant, thriving community of nations,

Observing that The Western Isles is among the most active regions in NationStates,

Acclaiming
The Western Isles for attaining a regional record of 834 constituent nations on November 2, 2016, making it the fourth largest user created region at the time;

Celebrating The Western Isles' steadfast commitment to the principles of democracy, equality, and liberty;

Extols the significance of The Western Isles' Constitution enacting checks and balances on its government's power and authority;

Stirred by The Western Isles' encouragement of private and decentralized initiatives to foster the region's continued growth and prosperity;

Saluting The Western Isles' resolute adherence to the virtues of diplomacy and international cooperation as observed by the formation of these twelve intraregional agreements, alliances, and treaties:

  • The League, an intraregional organization that aims to maintain intraregional peace and stability, act as a forum from which to facilitate international relations, alliances, and as a means to facilitate policy-guiding treaties and initiatives,
  • The Mesder Sea Treaty Organization (MSTO), an intergovernmental military alliance which has fostered immense technological advancement and political influence within The Western Isles,
  • The Coalition of Free Nations (COFN), an intergovernmental military and socioeconomic pact which has fostered peace, stability, and human development growth within The Western Isles,
  • The Cooperative Union (CU), a political and economic union intended to promote socioeconomic stability that collectively comprises the largest economic bloc within The Western Isles,
  • The Coalition of Six (C6), a military alliance intended to uphold the security and stability of the Cooperative Union,
  • The Gael-Four Agreement (G4), a union of four nations located on the Gael peninsula that has fostered freedom of trade and movement between its constitutent nations,
  • The Association of Luso-Hispanic Nations, an international organization comprised of nations with a common lusophone and hispanic culture that seeks to maintain their shared cultural heritage and engage in socioeconomic development and cooperation,
  • The Regional Trade and Economic Agreement (RTEA), an international economic agreement that aims to provide a credible forum for constituent nations to negotiate matters pertaining to all aspects of their respective economies and trade affairs, as well as to collectively strengthen the economies of its constituent nations,
  • The Global Experimental Thermo-Nuclear Reactor Project (GETR), an intraregional scientific research alliance pertaining to the development, implementation, and continuation of the usage of nuclear fusion reactors as a viable energy production source,
  • The Argean Rapid Response Force (ARRF), a rapid engagement military force comprised of specialized units from the nations of Vancouvia, Noronica, and Ostehaar that aims to provide a means of swiftly respond to threats and hostile maneuvering in the age of modern warfare,
  • The Joint Emergency Response Force (JERF), a Noronica-led, multinational military response force intended to coordinate an effective and rapid response to unfolding emergencies and humanitarian crises across The Western Isles, and
  • The Eterna-Argean Friendship Accords (EAFA), a cooperative agreement between the nations within and bordering the Eterna and Argean Seas that seeks to foster a sense of camaraderie and mutual trust, as well as establishing protocols for shared jurisdiction over their respective Seas;

Praising the welcoming, compassionate embrace that new nations receive upon entering The Western Isles;

Admiring The Western Isles' dedication to facilitating the flourishing of the creative arts, as seen in the numerous in-character roleplaying engagements and forums hosted and supported by the region;

Pleased by The Western Isles' collective fostering of both intraregional and interregional trade and freedom of movement between its constituent nations, irrespective of existing agreements and alliances;

Applauding the frequent elections and referendums The Western Isles carries out over all manners of administrative and political decisions, a reflection on the importance the region gives to the value of a democratic system of governance;

Hoping that this resolution encourages other regions to emulate the distinguished, honorable example The Western Isles has forged;

Hereby commends The Western Isles.

The Security Council,

Noting that The Western Isles (TWI) has for over five years fostered a vibrant, thriving community of nations with immense participation in the realms of diplomacy, trade relations, collaborative unions, and the proliferation of mass media;

Applauding the welcoming attitude that new nations are introduced to upon entering TWI, as demonstrated by:

  • The numerous well-written guides for nations to build and maintain (for example) thriving economies, militaries, and foreign relations networks,
  • An active, well-equipped system of regional mentors to assist nations in their rise to prosperity, and
  • The existence of the International District, a neutral and open forum for nations and regional representatives to discuss international relations, seek and give advice on nationbuilding, and introduce new nations to TWI's diplomatic scene;
Hailing TWI's diplomatic spirit as demonstrated by the formation of these notable regional socioeconomic unions and alliances:

  • The League, a complementary intraregional organ to the World Assembly that aims to maintain regional peace and stability, and to facilitate international relations, alliances, as well as policy-guiding treaties and initiatives,
  • The Cooperative Union (CU), a political and economic union intended to promote socioeconomic stability which is also TWI's largest economic bloc,
  • The Regional Trade and Economic Agreement (RTEA), which aims to provide a credible forum for member nations to negotiate matters pertaining to all aspects of their respective economies and trade affairs, as well as to collectively strengthen their economies, and
  • The Eterna-Argean Friendship Accords (EAFA), a cooperative agreement between the nations within and bordering the Eterna and Argean Seas that seeks to foster a sense of camaraderie and mutual trust, as well as to establish protocols for shared jurisdiction over their respective Seas;
Saluting the formation of these notable defense organizations and forces as a means to guarantee regional security:

  • The Mesder Sea Treaty Organization (MSTO), an intergovernmental military alliance which has fostered immense technological advancement and wielded much political influence within TWI,
  • The Coalition of Free Nations (COFN), an intergovernmental military and socioeconomic pact which has fostered peace, stability, and development within TWI,
  • The Argean Rapid Response Force (ARRF), a rapid engagement military force comprised of specialized units from the nations of Vancouvia, Noronica, and Ostehaar that aims to respond swiftly to threats and hostile maneuvering in the age of modern warfare, and
  • The Raedlon Organization of States (ROS), a military and socioeconomic alliance of nations within the Raedlon peninsula intended to provide mutual defense and foster economic relations and stability between member states;
Impressed by the exceptionally high prevalence and influence of these intraregional organizations within TWI, a region of just under 170 nations;

Cognizant of TWI's collective resolve in pursuing peace after the intraregional Second Imperial War, an accomplishment made all the more remarkable by the significant ideological divide between the Eastern Union of Socialist Republics (EUSR) and the MSTO, the two warring parties;

Praising TWI for their initiative, vision, and leadership in hosting the Western Isles Climate Response Council, a non-partisan intergovernmental organization which aims to perform research on alternative energy production sources and help nations respond to climate change;

Admiring TWI's dedication to disseminating journalism on a global scale via The Western Isles News, a non-profit media news cooperative that aggregates articles from newspapers across the region and distributes them to a large audience both within and beyond TWI;

Appreciating TWI's commitment to promoting the creative arts with the Citizens of The Isles, a creative writing publisher sponsored and maintained by a decentralized cooperative of TWI residents;

Hopeful that this resolution will encourage other regions to emulate the distinguished, honorable example The Western Isles has forged;

Hereby commends The Western Isles.

I'll let others decide whether there was a significant difference between these two iterations; I personally believe there was. Also, how is it 'absurd' that I had 12 drafts? I like to incrementally update and create drafts on things I work on. I like to show every small change; I don't think that's really a viable attack.
whose author attempted to rush the proposal to the floor of the Security Council,

Yeah, I made a mistake here. How is this pertinent to the resolution itself however? This is more of an attack on my drafting ethic and irrelevant to the resolution text.
went radio silent whenever a nation provided constructive criticism, ignored or gave curt, unsubstantive responses to virtually every genuine question from voters,

Initially I was busy IRL (which is why I tried to rush submitting foolishly), and then I took a break from drafting before getting back in. As for the curt responses, I do recognize that I could have been more explicit with the changes I was performing in response to feedback. However, I take issue with the contention that I didn't pay attention to the genuine questions and concerns being mentioned here; as one can see from the absurd extensive drafting history I left behind that I was incrementally editing and fixing and adding and removing according to what was being put in the thread. Also, I would like to just clarify this: I got a lot of drafting advice via Discord, which of course was not documented in the on-site thread; something that I am aware isn't the best practice.
Noticing the ridiculous “impressed” clause which implies that the Western Isles is “small”, a claim that’s not only wrong, but detracts from the idea that the Western Isles is important,

TWI having this amount and quality of regionbuilding and RP accomplishments is impressive, as it has achieved such performance with a relatively low number of nations compared to other RP-oriented regions.
The “applauding” clause also commends the Western Isles for having a forum for nations to talk in, a baseline requirement for many regions, and certainly nowhere near commendable,

Bormiar is referring to this:
The existence of the International District, a neutral and open forum for nations and regional representatives to discuss international relations, seek and give advice on nationbuilding, and introduce new nations to TWI's diplomatic scene;

The word 'forum' refers to an IC and an OOC hub located within an RP location that serves as a neutral zone for nations to interact in; both of these threads serve essentially the same purpose, just one is in-character whereas one is OOC. What's so unique about them? It's a means to coordinate roleplay and regionbuilding in a region that has an explicit policy of having no off-site chats or forums; as TWI's philosophy is that any regionbuilding and RP, along with the accompanying discussions and coordination should be available on-site, without further hurdles or hassles. This was to ensure that both a brand-new nation and a multi-year veteran of the region have the same information to go on and utilize on the same platform; and thus operate on the same level playing field. Therefore, having such threads is crucial and of unique relevancy to TWI's ability to maintain its stellar RP and regionbuilding performance.
The “appreciating” clause, which discussed “Citizens of The Isles” but failed to explain what this “creative writing publisher” was or what made it special— the same could perhaps be said of its mention of the Western Isles News,

The key words in the clauses that Bormiar is referring to here that I used were 'decentralized' and 'cooperative'- words that tell the reader that these initiatives are not the work of a centralized regional structure or leadership, as for instance most major regional newspaper threads are; but rather the combined efforts of nations across TWI in their strive to innovate, showcase their creativity and nationbuiding prowess, and have fun roleplaying and distributing their national newspapers and short stories.
Elaborating that the mere organization of “Commend the Western Isles” sabotages itself; it is merely a list of treaty names, none of which are elaborated on beyond an encyclopedic, dispassionate description

This is a subjective analysis, I personally disagree that the descriptions were 'dispassionate'.
Concluding that the “hailing” and “saluting” clauses— the clauses which refer to the treaties of the Western Isles and make up the bulk of the commendation— are merely pieces of fluff that fill space and say nothing about the Western Isles.

I'd argue that they say a lot about the region. It tells the reader that this region has clearly put a lot of effort, time, and commitment into the diplomacy aspect of their regionbuilding and RP. In touching upon the aspects of military RP and regionbuilding, the "saluting" clause informs the reader that the region has, as with their diplomacy aspect, undertaken quite a laudable effort in their military-based regionbuilding and RP. Remember, this is a commend based primarily on TWI's RP and regionbuilding accomplishments, which are covered quite liberally in the aforementioned clauses. If this was a commend of a region for participating in defender activity, or World Assembly achievements, for instance, then yes, this would be fluff. However if the commendation is geared towards specifically RP and regionbuilding accomplishments, then I don't think it's fair to call those clauses fluff.

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Postby Wayneactia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:56 am

Unconditional support.

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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:17 am

Full support. But then after my comments in the Commend drafting thread what other response could I make. :)
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Postby Shanzie » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:01 am

I dont really feel like this draft shows why TWI is not commendable. Instead, it just attacks the author with really harsh wording. I dont get it. Is this some sort of personal attack?

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Postby Aruia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:28 am

If this comes to a vote despite coming off as a personal attack due to poor choice of words, ill vote in favor just for the principal to show how little this resolution means and the sentimental appreciation by the writer of the resolution is much more valuable than a shiny badge.
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Postby Free Las Pinas » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:08 am

Shanzie wrote:I dont really feel like this draft shows why TWI is not commendable. Instead, it just attacks the author with really harsh wording. I dont get it. Is this some sort of personal attack?

Aruia wrote:If this comes to a vote despite coming off as a personal attack due to poor choice of words, ill vote in favor just for the principal to show how little this resolution means and the sentimental appreciation by the writer of the resolution is much more valuable than a shiny badge.

That's because that's not the point of this repeal. The author stated that they think TWI is commendable, and the currently at-vote proposal just doesn't do the region justice, which is a totally reasonable purpose for repeal. They also pointed out that it'd be nice if somebody offered to make a replacement, if that helps you see the point being made.

In other words, this repeal would allow for a new proposal that better represents TWI, which I think is great. Of course, if TWIers themselves don't want it, I'd vote against this too.
Last edited by Free Las Pinas on Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shanzie
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Postby Shanzie » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:18 am

Free Las Pinas wrote:
Shanzie wrote:I dont really feel like this draft shows why TWI is not commendable. Instead, it just attacks the author with really harsh wording. I dont get it. Is this some sort of personal attack?

Aruia wrote:If this comes to a vote despite coming off as a personal attack due to poor choice of words, ill vote in favor just for the principal to show how little this resolution means and the sentimental appreciation by the writer of the resolution is much more valuable than a shiny badge.

That's because that's not the point of this repeal. The author stated that they think TWI is commendable, and the currently at-vote proposal just doesn't do the region justice, which is a totally reasonable purpose for repeal. They also pointed out that it'd be nice if somebody offered to make a replacement, if that helps you see the point being made.

In other words, this repeal would allow for a new proposal that better represents TWI, which I think is great. Of course, if TWIers themselves don't want it, I'd vote against this too.

We weren't consulted, tbh. Theres things we do find commendable about our region. I think we are a special region deserving of recognition. The thing is, we just don't need it and this resolution at vote doesn't actually capture what our region is.

However, I hate this draft of the repeal because it is so angry. Calling provisions absurd, ridiculous, or getting mad at the way they did something is attacking a resolution so badly that it feels like a personal beef. Ive seen many good reveals of both GA and SC resolutions that did a good job of explaining the need for a repeal without just attacking it with just frankly childish words. This draft is seething with anger. I just don't get why.

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Aruia
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Postby Aruia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:19 am

Free Las Pinas wrote:
Shanzie wrote:I dont really feel like this draft shows why TWI is not commendable. Instead, it just attacks the author with really harsh wording. I dont get it. Is this some sort of personal attack?

Aruia wrote:If this comes to a vote despite coming off as a personal attack due to poor choice of words, ill vote in favor just for the principal to show how little this resolution means and the sentimental appreciation by the writer of the resolution is much more valuable than a shiny badge.

That's because that's not the point of this repeal. The author stated that they think TWI is commendable, and the currently at-vote proposal just doesn't do the region justice, which is a totally reasonable purpose for repeal. They also pointed out that it'd be nice if somebody offered to make a replacement, if that helps you see the point being made.

In other words, this repeal would allow for a new proposal that better represents TWI, which I think is great. Of course, if TWIers themselves don't want it, I'd vote against this too.



i want to reaffirm and clear my statement - whatever the WA decides the sentiment value of the appreciation gesture goes far long way than what outcome the voting will have.
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Postby Comfed » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:53 am

I definitely support this. I was not convinced by the original resolution, and maybe TWI is commendable but I don't know because the current one isn't convincing.
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Postby Corindia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:18 am

I'm in the region, and while I agree that the original proposal would have been better if we were asked about what we thought should go in there, I'm still glad it passed and I think the region earned it. I haven't been impressed by the amount of ugly politics surrounding it and the repeal though, that's a big part of the reason why we tend to just ignore the WA and gameplay.

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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:02 am

Corindia wrote:I'm in the region, and while I agree that the original proposal would have been better if we were asked about what we thought should go in there, I'm still glad it passed and I think the region earned it. I haven't been impressed by the amount of ugly politics surrounding it and the repeal though, that's a big part of the reason why we tend to just ignore the WA and gameplay.

I saw no politics, unless you meant people who though the resolution wasn't good enough.
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Bormiar
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:28 pm

Regarding the points that this is a "personal attack" coming from Shanzie and Aruia (two members of TWI), I've made it clear above — when talking to Pluvie — that I don't know Cesnica, and therefore have no personal grievances with him. I understand that I may read my proposal with a different tone than how others read it, so I have offered to — and will — make any reasonable changes regarding the tone that others suggest. I have already made all of Pluvie's suggestions. I will not, however, waver on the gestalt of my proposal: that the commendation was poorly written and did not adequately convey what made the Western Isles impressive, and that that is the fault of the author, not unreasonable standards.

Seeing as my other option is to argue that TWI isn't commendable (which is neither true nor in your best interest, Shanzie/Aruia), that message is crafted to be ideal for the Western Isles. Therefore, your respective positions as the two most fervent critics of this draft makes the Western Isles appear incredibly defensive, and Shanzie's own usage of the word "we" in regards to TWI implies that Shanzie is attempting to speak on behalf of the region. That alloyed with Aruia's accusations of the WA elite gatekeeping shows that you two seem more interested in getting a commendation than reflecting well on TWI. I suspect that's why Shanzie (and I assume also Aruia) was told off by both the author and others, according to Greater Cesnica.

Regarding Shanzie's statement that "we weren't consulted", first-off I don't believe you speak for the Western Isles. If you do, or if any member of TWI has thoughts as to how I can make this proposal reflect best on TWI — or on how we can get a replacement going — telegram me or dm at bormiar#7043. I'm pushing forward with a repeal though, because even if TWI is fine with a commendation that their own members admit is sub-par, the current and future readers of SC resolutions deserve to really understand why every nominee was commended, what set them apart from the norm. That's not a sentiment I just made up; it is shared by every SCer I know.

Just remember I am not your enemy.

Edit: apparently Shanzie was talking about the commendation when saying they weren't consulted: "When I say we were not consulted, I say that all officers and our founder were blindsided by the commendation". Sorry!




Greater Cesnica wrote:My response above: viewtopic.php?p=38108897#p38108897


Come on dude. You couldn't wait 12 hours? I wasn't ignoring you; I was sleeping and eating and working. Just... let me have a life.

Anyways:

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Bormiar wrote:and failed to change the proposal very much even in an absurd twelve drafts,

Let's compare drafts here.
The Security Council,

Noting that The Western Isles has for over five years fostered a vibrant, thriving community of nations,

Observing that The Western Isles is among the most active regions in NationStates,

Acclaiming
The Western Isles for attaining a regional record of 834 constituent nations on November 2, 2016, making it the fourth largest user created region at the time;

Celebrating The Western Isles' steadfast commitment to the principles of democracy, equality, and liberty;

Extols the significance of The Western Isles' Constitution enacting checks and balances on its government's power and authority;

Stirred by The Western Isles' encouragement of private and decentralized initiatives to foster the region's continued growth and prosperity;

Saluting The Western Isles' resolute adherence to the virtues of diplomacy and international cooperation as observed by the formation of these twelve intraregional agreements, alliances, and treaties:

  • The League, an intraregional organization that aims to maintain intraregional peace and stability, act as a forum from which to facilitate international relations, alliances, and as a means to facilitate policy-guiding treaties and initiatives,
  • The Mesder Sea Treaty Organization (MSTO), an intergovernmental military alliance which has fostered immense technological advancement and political influence within The Western Isles,
  • The Coalition of Free Nations (COFN), an intergovernmental military and socioeconomic pact which has fostered peace, stability, and human development growth within The Western Isles,
  • The Cooperative Union (CU), a political and economic union intended to promote socioeconomic stability that collectively comprises the largest economic bloc within The Western Isles,
  • The Coalition of Six (C6), a military alliance intended to uphold the security and stability of the Cooperative Union,
  • The Gael-Four Agreement (G4), a union of four nations located on the Gael peninsula that has fostered freedom of trade and movement between its constitutent nations,
  • The Association of Luso-Hispanic Nations, an international organization comprised of nations with a common lusophone and hispanic culture that seeks to maintain their shared cultural heritage and engage in socioeconomic development and cooperation,
  • The Regional Trade and Economic Agreement (RTEA), an international economic agreement that aims to provide a credible forum for constituent nations to negotiate matters pertaining to all aspects of their respective economies and trade affairs, as well as to collectively strengthen the economies of its constituent nations,
  • The Global Experimental Thermo-Nuclear Reactor Project (GETR), an intraregional scientific research alliance pertaining to the development, implementation, and continuation of the usage of nuclear fusion reactors as a viable energy production source,
  • The Argean Rapid Response Force (ARRF), a rapid engagement military force comprised of specialized units from the nations of Vancouvia, Noronica, and Ostehaar that aims to provide a means of swiftly respond to threats and hostile maneuvering in the age of modern warfare,
  • The Joint Emergency Response Force (JERF), a Noronica-led, multinational military response force intended to coordinate an effective and rapid response to unfolding emergencies and humanitarian crises across The Western Isles, and
  • The Eterna-Argean Friendship Accords (EAFA), a cooperative agreement between the nations within and bordering the Eterna and Argean Seas that seeks to foster a sense of camaraderie and mutual trust, as well as establishing protocols for shared jurisdiction over their respective Seas;

Praising the welcoming, compassionate embrace that new nations receive upon entering The Western Isles;

Admiring The Western Isles' dedication to facilitating the flourishing of the creative arts, as seen in the numerous in-character roleplaying engagements and forums hosted and supported by the region;

Pleased by The Western Isles' collective fostering of both intraregional and interregional trade and freedom of movement between its constituent nations, irrespective of existing agreements and alliances;

Applauding the frequent elections and referendums The Western Isles carries out over all manners of administrative and political decisions, a reflection on the importance the region gives to the value of a democratic system of governance;

Hoping that this resolution encourages other regions to emulate the distinguished, honorable example The Western Isles has forged;

Hereby commends The Western Isles.

The Security Council,

Noting that The Western Isles (TWI) has for over five years fostered a vibrant, thriving community of nations with immense participation in the realms of diplomacy, trade relations, collaborative unions, and the proliferation of mass media;

Applauding the welcoming attitude that new nations are introduced to upon entering TWI, as demonstrated by:

  • The numerous well-written guides for nations to build and maintain (for example) thriving economies, militaries, and foreign relations networks,
  • An active, well-equipped system of regional mentors to assist nations in their rise to prosperity, and
  • The existence of the International District, a neutral and open forum for nations and regional representatives to discuss international relations, seek and give advice on nationbuilding, and introduce new nations to TWI's diplomatic scene;
Hailing TWI's diplomatic spirit as demonstrated by the formation of these notable regional socioeconomic unions and alliances:

  • The League, a complementary intraregional organ to the World Assembly that aims to maintain regional peace and stability, and to facilitate international relations, alliances, as well as policy-guiding treaties and initiatives,
  • The Cooperative Union (CU), a political and economic union intended to promote socioeconomic stability which is also TWI's largest economic bloc,
  • The Regional Trade and Economic Agreement (RTEA), which aims to provide a credible forum for member nations to negotiate matters pertaining to all aspects of their respective economies and trade affairs, as well as to collectively strengthen their economies, and
  • The Eterna-Argean Friendship Accords (EAFA), a cooperative agreement between the nations within and bordering the Eterna and Argean Seas that seeks to foster a sense of camaraderie and mutual trust, as well as to establish protocols for shared jurisdiction over their respective Seas;
Saluting the formation of these notable defense organizations and forces as a means to guarantee regional security:

  • The Mesder Sea Treaty Organization (MSTO), an intergovernmental military alliance which has fostered immense technological advancement and wielded much political influence within TWI,
  • The Coalition of Free Nations (COFN), an intergovernmental military and socioeconomic pact which has fostered peace, stability, and development within TWI,
  • The Argean Rapid Response Force (ARRF), a rapid engagement military force comprised of specialized units from the nations of Vancouvia, Noronica, and Ostehaar that aims to respond swiftly to threats and hostile maneuvering in the age of modern warfare, and
  • The Raedlon Organization of States (ROS), a military and socioeconomic alliance of nations within the Raedlon peninsula intended to provide mutual defense and foster economic relations and stability between member states;
Impressed by the exceptionally high prevalence and influence of these intraregional organizations within TWI, a region of just under 170 nations;

Cognizant of TWI's collective resolve in pursuing peace after the intraregional Second Imperial War, an accomplishment made all the more remarkable by the significant ideological divide between the Eastern Union of Socialist Republics (EUSR) and the MSTO, the two warring parties;

Praising TWI for their initiative, vision, and leadership in hosting the Western Isles Climate Response Council, a non-partisan intergovernmental organization which aims to perform research on alternative energy production sources and help nations respond to climate change;

Admiring TWI's dedication to disseminating journalism on a global scale via The Western Isles News, a non-profit media news cooperative that aggregates articles from newspapers across the region and distributes them to a large audience both within and beyond TWI;

Appreciating TWI's commitment to promoting the creative arts with the Citizens of The Isles, a creative writing publisher sponsored and maintained by a decentralized cooperative of TWI residents;

Hopeful that this resolution will encourage other regions to emulate the distinguished, honorable example The Western Isles has forged;

Hereby commends The Western Isles.

I'll let others decide whether there was a significant difference between these two iterations; I personally believe there was. Also, how is it 'absurd' that I had 12 drafts? I like to incrementally update and create drafts on things I work on. I like to show every small change; I don't think that's really a viable attack.


In 12 drafts, I would've expected the entire proposal to have been rewritten, probably multiple times too. You say that you like to make changes in small increments, but really you were just twiddling your thumbs when what was required was a complete bare-bones overhaul— something that seems to have been made clear by draft 11.

So let's contrast these two drafts:

  • The big list of treaties in the "saluting" clause was abridged and reorganized into two back-to-back lists. Insofar that the language was changed, it became possibly more encyclopedic and stale. This clause really was the worst part of the resolution— just a laundry list of diplomacy examples without any explanation as to why they're impressive. You needed to change it more than just a reorganization.
  • You got rid of a few obvious bits of fluff that other people pointed out: the second, third, fourth, fifth, tenth, and eleventh clauses. You then replaced that by beefing up the filler in the "Praising" clause (which became the "Applauding" clause) and adding new filler in the diplomacy clauses and in the inclusion of the "Impressed" clause.
  • You added the stuff on the "intraregional Second Imperial War", Western Isles Climate Response Council, and The Western Isles News.
  • You fixed a rule 4 violation.

So, yeah, the draft improved by replacing some of the filler with actual content, but the essence of it is the same. 600 words that give me every random fact about TWI diplomacy, yet tell me nothing at all. What you needed to do — instead of twiddle your thumbs for 12 drafts — was go to TWI members and ask them what bits of roleplay (perhaps out of the list of treaties / orgs you made) they think had the most meaningful impacts on them and why. Then you should've taken that why and used it to tell the reader why these bits of roleplay are important to them, what they say about TWI, what sets TWI apart. You could've done that in a single sentence, and it still would've been a hell of a lot better than listing out a dozen treaties and throwing around fuzzy words like "diplomatic", "influence", "collaborative", "immense participation", "initiatives", and "high prevalence", just hopin' they'll stick.

Greater Cesnica wrote:
whose author attempted to rush the proposal to the floor of the Security Council,

Yeah, I made a mistake here. How is this pertinent to the resolution itself however? This is more of an attack on my drafting ethic and irrelevant to the resolution text.

Well it shows more of an interest in making a resolution than making a resolution the best it can be. That's something I'd like to discourage in my proposal.

Greater Cesnica wrote:Initially I was busy IRL (which is why I tried to rush submitting foolishly), and then I took a break from drafting before getting back in. As for the curt responses, I do recognize that I could have been more explicit with the changes I was performing in response to feedback. However, I take issue with the contention that I didn't pay attention to the genuine questions and concerns being mentioned here; as one can see from the absurd extensive drafting history I left behind that I was incrementally editing and fixing and adding and removing according to what was being put in the thread. Also, I would like to just clarify this: I got a lot of drafting advice via Discord, which of course was not documented in the on-site thread; something that I am aware isn't the best practice.


If you didn't have time for it, you should've waited until you did have time.

Maybe you paid attention to the comments and concerns, but you sure as hell didn't address them. That's unhelpful to the voter and future readers of this, and is an example of a drafting process we'd like to discourage.

Cretox State doesn't understand what two clauses are referring to and asks one possibly-rhetorical question. He also shares some of the same points I'm making now, at the beginning of your drafting. — not addressed
Electrum asks two questions and points out the very same issue that Cretox and I both have (but you didn't fix), the laundry list of diplomacy stuff that's just filler — not addressed
Praeceps, who was asked to provide comments, asked two questions and states that he doesn't understand something. Also points out the same thing that Electrum and Cretox had before (that the diplomacy stuff was just filler and didn't explain why it was commendable)still not addressed or fixed
Makdon writes detailed commentary on your draft and you respond with a curt comment that has nothing to do with his commentary. He also addresses the same diplomacy issues that Electrum and Cretox and Praeceps had before, which you did not fix then, and have not fixed now
Comfed corrects you — you let someone else fight your battle
chain of 3 people commenting on poor quality — not addressed
question from curious voter — not addressed
someone asks how to vote — not addressed

So, yes, you did ignore people, and you did give curt responses. And you ignored the most valuable piece of advice anyone could give you, even after at least 4 people brought it up. Had you took that advice, this repeal wouldn't exist.

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Noticing the ridiculous “impressed” clause which implies that the Western Isles is “small”, a claim that’s not only wrong, but detracts from the idea that the Western Isles is important,

TWI having this amount and quality of regionbuilding and RP accomplishments is impressive, as it has achieved such performance with a relatively low number of nations compared to other RP-oriented regions.


...it's three times the size of Greater Dienstad, 6 times the size of Gholgoth, about the size of Atlantian Oceania, etc... you yourself mentioned that it peaked at 834 nations in your early drafts. That's gargantuan. To use my earlier examples, it's bigger than peak Atlantian Oceania, peak Gholgoth, and peak Greater Dienstad combined.

How the hell could you call that relatively small? It's relatively massive.

Greater Cesnica wrote:
The “applauding” clause also commends the Western Isles for having a forum for nations to talk in, a baseline requirement for many regions, and certainly nowhere near commendable,

Bormiar is referring to this:
The existence of the International District, a neutral and open forum for nations and regional representatives to discuss international relations, seek and give advice on nationbuilding, and introduce new nations to TWI's diplomatic scene;

The word 'forum' refers to an IC and an OOC hub located within an RP location that serves as a neutral zone for nations to interact in; both of these threads serve essentially the same purpose, just one is in-character whereas one is OOC. What's so unique about them? It's a means to coordinate roleplay and regionbuilding in a region that has an explicit policy of having no off-site chats or forums; as TWI's philosophy is that any regionbuilding and RP, along with the accompanying discussions and coordination should be available on-site, without further hurdles or hassles. This was to ensure that both a brand-new nation and a multi-year veteran of the region have the same information to go on and utilize on the same platform; and thus operate on the same level playing field. Therefore, having such threads is crucial and of unique relevancy to TWI's ability to maintain its stellar RP and regionbuilding performance.


Lol.

I'm fully aware of what the word forum is referring to. I'm also aware that a thread like the ones that you are attempting to commend TWI for are nothing out of the ordinary— you're literally commending them for making a forum thread.

What you should've done was explain what made that forum thread better than the other forum threads. You didn't do that in the resolution, and your current attempt at doing it is ridiculous. You say that it's special because it conflicts with TWI's philosophy, which leads me to believe that I can be commended for anything I do as long as I state that I shouldn't be doing it.

I believe that TWI's forum thread could be special, but you haven't done anything near proving that.

Greater Cesnica wrote:
The “appreciating” clause, which discussed “Citizens of The Isles” but failed to explain what this “creative writing publisher” was or what made it special— the same could perhaps be said of its mention of the Western Isles News,

The key words in the clauses that Bormiar is referring to here that I used were 'decentralized' and 'cooperative'- words that tell the reader that these initiatives are not the work of a centralized regional structure or leadership, as for instance most major regional newspaper threads are; but rather the combined efforts of nations across TWI in their strive to innovate, showcase their creativity and nationbuiding prowess, and have fun roleplaying and distributing their national newspapers and short stories.


I wasn't referring to those words; I was referring to the clause in general. If I were to guess, the news source takes examples of roleplay and puts that in a dispatch? What makes that special (commendable is inherently special btw)?

Also, the words "decentralized cooperative" are definitely examples of fluff; thank you for bringing them up. They're meaningless words if you don't explain them to readers. Explaining them now — and using a full paragraph to do it — cannot make up for failing to do so in the proposal. It's not like decentralizing a news source is even impressive, anyways — it's just a different kind of organization.

You could benefit from reading this: https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/po ... h/e_polit/

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Elaborating that the mere organization of “Commend the Western Isles” sabotages itself; it is merely a list of treaty names, none of which are elaborated on beyond an encyclopedic, dispassionate description

This is a subjective analysis, I personally disagree that the descriptions were 'dispassionate'.


At least four people gave you that "subjective analysis" in the thread during your drafting— including the best roleplay SC writer I've ever seen— and you ignored them. There was no controversy. People just kept telling you an inconvenient truth about your writing that you didn't like. And now you label it as "subjective" as a means of discrediting it when your own negligence bites you in the ass later.

If you fail to create a subjectively tasteful proposal, you have failed.

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Concluding that the “hailing” and “saluting” clauses— the clauses which refer to the treaties of the Western Isles and make up the bulk of the commendation— are merely pieces of fluff that fill space and say nothing about the Western Isles.

I'd argue that they say a lot about the region. It tells the reader that this region has clearly put a lot of effort, time, and commitment into the diplomacy aspect of their regionbuilding and RP. In touching upon the aspects of military RP and regionbuilding, the "saluting" clause informs the reader that the region has, as with their diplomacy aspect, undertaken quite a laudable effort in their military-based regionbuilding and RP. Remember, this is a commend based primarily on TWI's RP and regionbuilding accomplishments, which are covered quite liberally in the aforementioned clauses. If this was a commend of a region for participating in defender activity, or World Assembly achievements, for instance, then yes, this would be fluff. However if the commendation is geared towards specifically RP and regionbuilding accomplishments, then I don't think it's fair to call those clauses fluff.


Now you're just shoveling against the tide.

It does say a lot about the region— a lot of useless facts that few readers care about, and none will remember. All you did was give a laundry list bunch of treaties and pacts without explaining what made them special, important, or commendable. And you did so using extraneous information and buzzwords that you hoped would mean something.

You have to explain what makes this roleplay special. Not now. Not in a thread. In the resolution. It has to resonate with people. It has to establish traits that define TWI — traits like "hardworking" or "talented". It should make readers feel just as impressed by TWI as you were when you decided to commend them. You didn't do that.

It seems lots of people — Praeceps, Makdon, Cretox, BBD, Electrum — told you this before you submitted the proposal, and you didn't fix it.



Ok, I think I responded to everything in the thread that I need to. If I missed something (like a point I should've addressed or a suggestion), please tell me here.
Last edited by Bormiar on Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Shanzie
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Posts: 266
Founded: Dec 22, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shanzie » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:32 pm

Just to be clear, I'm not defending the commendation as it was written. I just didn't think the tone was appropriate. Your criticisms are absolutely right.

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Bormiar
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Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:36 pm

Shanzie wrote:Just to be clear, I'm not defending the commendation as it was written. I just didn't think the tone was appropriate. Your criticisms are absolutely right.

Thank you.

Naturally, I'd be happy to amend the tone if you have any specific examples. Just a clause or phrase should be fine for me to know what to tweak.

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