[PASSED] Repeal Commend The Holy Principality of Saint Mark

[Nepleslia]

snip

Approval raiding can.

Oh, joy. Thanks for clarifying, though.

[The Reformed American Republic]

For those interested, the proposal’s reached quorum and thus is now locked in queue (unless approval raiding can knock things out of queue - I’m admittedly not too familiar with WA/R&D mechanics).

Approval raiding can.

Which is why founders and executive delegates should now take extra security measures, regardless how small or unknown your region is.

[Varanius]

Oh don’t worry, we know.

Can I expect a full circus or is this all I get?

Given the last 5 or so posts, it seems the circus came to you!

[The Reformed American Republic]

Can I expect a full circus or is this all I get?

Given the last 5 or so posts, it seems the circus came to you!

The circus came from TWP raiders attacking various regions (including my own) because they have a delegate who voted a certain way. If that hadn't happened, many wouldn't be complaining and I wouldn't be here.

[Varanius]

Given the last 5 or so posts, it seems the circus came to you!

The circus came from TWP raiders attacking various regions (including my own) because they have a delegate who voted a certain way. If that hadn't happened, many wouldn't be complaining and I wouldn't be here.

Yeah, we all care sooo much about your complaining lmao

[The Reformed American Republic]

The circus came from TWP raiders attacking various regions (including my own) because they have a delegate who voted a certain way. If that hadn't happened, many wouldn't be complaining and I wouldn't be here.

Yeah, we all care sooo much about your complaining lmao

And I'm so deeply hurt by your snark.

[Varanius]

Yeah, we all care sooo much about your complaining lmao

And I'm so deeply hurt by your snark.

That was a good one

[The Reformed American Republic]

Hey, I try.

[Praeceps]

Upon a reread of the thread, it seems that most of the points that I would make have already been put forward. That being said, I have to say, I'm really disappointed to see the accusation of badgehunting being thrown around.

I'm not a fan of the term at all. It's generally used as an insult based on the connotations it carries instead of providing actual constructive criticisms. I would first argue that badge hunting (which I don't think is the case here) is not nearly as bad as some seem to think it is. More people getting involved in writing resolutions is a good thing. If their motivation is that they get a badge on their profile, well, good for them.

The problem of "badgehunting" is that frequently proposals are suggested that are likely to be perceived as popular (eg. Commend GCR or a GCR Delegate), are poorly-written (and by this I mean it's a couple of sentences that are generic), are rushed to submission, etc. However, calling a proposal nothing but a badge hunt is not helpful at all and does not help the SC community. It is far more helpful to actually provide specific criticisms to a proposal that the author can act on instead of relegating to calling it a badge hunt.

It is quite clear however—well, at least it should be—that this is not a badge hunt. You would think that if Gorundu was attempting to just get a badge he would have chosen one of the many possibilities that would be nowhere near as controversial as this one is turning out to be so far. The vast majority of resolutions do not have counter-approval raids done. It would not have been to find a topic that wouldn't have had a group be afraid of it coming to vote and resorting to approval raids. Furthermore, Gorundu has clearly done his research, he has managed to refute the points made in the original and provide evidence on each of his claims. Lastly, Gorundu has been receptive to constructive feedback on improving the resolution. It is a stretch to call this a badge hunt. I would be fascinated to know how in the world this is a badge hunt other than people just trying to throw the criticism at Gorundu in hopes that it sticks.

Also, quite bizarre that the ones throwing the term around are those that profess to not frequent this forum.

Really, if we're discussing toxic actions as was done earlier in this thread, I feel like there's something that would fit better as being toxic than suggesting this repeal at all.

[Great Algerstonia]

On two counts. One, by my recollection, TWP has been involved in quorum raids more often than it has not. Two, the proposal isn't even remotely anti-TWP, unless being critical of Halo is now anti-TWP.

1. I believe you'll note I stated SC quorum raids, not quorum raids in general. We do participate in GA quorum raids, but our policy in general is not to do so towards the Security Council at this time.

2. If someone went after a commend for former TEP delegate, I'd be willing to bet your community would be angry as well, especially if done in a way with minimal research, no reach-out to discuss a replacement, etc etc. Gorundu has made it clear elsewhere that he "expected" this response from the communities that Halo has been involved in.

Would we be angry? Probably.

Would we quorum raid it? Definite no. Why? Because quorum raiding annoys literally everyone but themselves, does nothing to improve the game, and completely throws out authors' hard work.

[Varanius]

1. I believe you'll note I stated SC quorum raids, not quorum raids in general. We do participate in GA quorum raids, but our policy in general is not to do so towards the Security Council at this time.

2. If someone went after a commend for former TEP delegate, I'd be willing to bet your community would be angry as well, especially if done in a way with minimal research, no reach-out to discuss a replacement, etc etc. Gorundu has made it clear elsewhere that he "expected" this response from the communities that Halo has been involved in.

Would we be angry? Probably.

Would we quorum raid it? Definite no. Why? Because quorum raiding annoys literally everyone but themselves, does nothing to improve the game, and completely throws out authors' hard work.

Quorum raiding is a perfectly acceptable tool to express political disagreement with a resolution. And given the fact that this resolution is in queue despite the quorum raid makes the whole thing about throwing out work a rather moot point doesn’t it. Also, annoying people? Seriously? This is a political simulator, not a kindergarten playground.

[Comfed]

Also, annoying people? Seriously? This is a political simulator, not a kindergarten playground.

Though I don't agree with this proposal, nor do I disagree with the raid, this is a poor argument because there's more to NS then Gameplay.

[Great Algerstonia]

Would we be angry? Probably.

Would we quorum raid it? Definite no. Why? Because quorum raiding annoys literally everyone but themselves, does nothing to improve the game, and completely throws out authors' hard work.

Also, annoying people? Seriously? This is a political simulator, not a kindergarten playground.

Would you be saying this if commend Halo was quorum raided?

[Makdon]

This is a political simulator, not a kindergarten playground.

Yet some people seem to insist on acting like children

[Nepleslia]

This is a political simulator, not a kindergarten playground.

Yet some people seem to insist on acting like children

That tends to happen whenever politics are involved, be it RL/NS/etc. :v

[Varanius]

Also, annoying people? Seriously? This is a political simulator, not a kindergarten playground.

Would you be saying this if commend Halo was quorum raided?

My values and opinions don’t suddenly shift because of politics. So to answer your question, yes, this would still be my opinion.

[Honeydewistania]

Would we be angry? Probably.

Would we quorum raid it? Definite no. Why? Because quorum raiding annoys literally everyone but themselves, does nothing to improve the game, and completely throws out authors' hard work.

Quorum raiding is a perfectly acceptable tool to express political disagreement with a resolution. And given the fact that this resolution is in queue despite the quorum raid makes the whole thing about throwing out work a rather moot point doesn’t it.

If it's so moot and ineffective, why do it?

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

The WA shouldn't commend those nations who willfully do not comply with WA resolutions, and that reason alone is enough to repeal this. Glad to see it's back in quorum - and hopefully the replacement goes down in flames.

[Varanius]

Quorum raiding is a perfectly acceptable tool to express political disagreement with a resolution. And given the fact that this resolution is in queue despite the quorum raid makes the whole thing about throwing out work a rather moot point doesn’t it.

If it's so moot and ineffective, why do it?

Reading comprehension is still a gift I see. I said the point was moot. Of course I wasn’t arguing that quorum raiding is never effective, I’m saying that proposal can still get in despite that, and radical calls to remove them, or refusals to partake in them because it’s rude to authors or whatever simply originates from authors whose own proposals would’ve barely got in on their actual merits and decided they needed a boogie man to blame for their own failed, half-baked proposals.

[Comfed]

The WA shouldn't commend those nations who willfully do not comply with WA resolutions, and that reason alone is enough to repeal this. Glad to see it's back in quorum - and hopefully the replacement goes down in flames.

How does non-compliance with GA resolutions negate all the work that Halo has done for TWP?

[Great Algerstonia]

The WA shouldn't commend those nations who willfully do not comply with WA resolutions, and that reason alone is enough to repeal this. Glad to see it's back in quorum - and hopefully the replacement goes down in flames.

How does non-compliance with GA resolutions negate all the work that Halo has done for TWP?

Compliance with WA resolutions is a fundamental part of the WA, and non-compliance in them means that you are an enemy of the WA by going against it's primary institutions.

[Great Algerstonia]

Would you be saying this if commend Halo was quorum raided?

My values and opinions don’t suddenly shift because of politics. So to answer your question, yes, this would still be my opinion.

I doubt this but this is a discussion for another when and another where...

[Varanius]

How does non-compliance with GA resolutions negate all the work that Halo has done for TWP?

Compliance with WA resolutions is a fundamental part of the WA, and non-compliance in them means that you are an enemy of the WA by going against it's primary institutions.

Hey Gorundu, for the record, this is what actual embellishment looks like

[Bormiar]

On the topic of quorum raiding, I have to agree with TWP/Dilber. TWP's quorum raiding is a natural — if a little escalatory — extension of the politics and tension within this thread. That's not to say I support quorum raiding; I just find this to be no worse than them, say, quorum raiding the GA. Furthermore, if what they say about quorum raiding the GA is true, they've already strongly defined themselves as open to quorum raiding simply because they dislike the proposal, and are therefore already openly WA bad guys or vigilantes or however they want to describe it. In an IC game, you can't tell the bad guys to play fair or do the right thing.

The problem with TWP in the WA is that they're just not very good at it (no offense guys). They don't have any good writers and have only one constructive critic that I know of (BBD ofc). When TWPers do show up in a thread or the region pays any attention to the WA, it's usually seen as self-serving because they almost never show up unless it has to do with them— the same couldn't be said of any other GCR except Balder (and perhaps Lazarus, but I have yet to see them interested in the WA). TWPers generally have opinions starkly contrasting the GA and SC community but instead of trying to subtly change things with decent drafting, they prefer zealous shows of force (quorum raiding, the Halo thing, angry forum comments) that may work in the short-term, but ultimately just make them look bad. They've gotten their minor wins, but ultimately, what stake has TWP ever had in the shaping of the WA? Considering steady the decline of NatSov and TWP's complete absence from SC politics except in rare situations (TNP, by contrast, is almost always relevant), I'd say TWP hasn't ever had a major foothold in the WA.

So they're like WA terrorists. Like real-life terrorists, they have radical opinions and may appear relevant in short bursts, but ultimately always fail to unseat the powers they're against.

Frankly, if the gameplay community were a bit more mature and learned to distinguish IC evil with being a jerk OOC, TWP's quorum raiding and other stuff could be a very fun inclusion in the game. But the OOC hostility (namely the righteous indignance) shown on both sides probably means we can't have that.

My advice is that until GP culture matures (assuming that will happen), TWP should stop trying to be the bad guy. They should work with their friends and other communities that feel left out in the SC, and they should try to pump out the best drafts they can for the most obvious possible nominees. The writers should have humility and patience and a lot of care when they draft. It should be the kind of proposal that can't get rejected, both because the nominee's a great choice, and because the proposal is well-argued. Chiefly, TWP drafters should remember that people from TNP and TRR and elsewhere are not necessarily their enemies (same goes for TNP and TRR: TWP is not our enemy). I think that if they do that, they'll gain respect and networks within the SC that they never had, which will make people want to help them and want to pass their proposals.

I actually have a few specific ideas for how to do that:

• Immediately start pumping out a pristine Commend Halo replacement. This a) shows maturity by extending the olive branch, b) gets Halo the commendation he deserves, c) ends this stupidity, and d) would be the first major step towards TWP becoming more respected and prominent in the SC. TWP has a new administration now with a far more likable delegate, so it's in the perfect position to change its WA PR and make steps towards reconciliation (the other side's approval and help in the creation of a replacement would be their way of finding a compromise).
• Reach out to the Pacific. The Pacific has an affable WA community of smart and — more importantly — reasonable future writers who are just dying to get involved in the SC. Iirc TWP has started working with them on a certain draft I can't publicly discuss, but that draft hasn't seen much progress (it's a brilliant choice of nominee too, so a perfect opportunity for TWP).
• I'm not familiar with the intricacies of this relationship, but Osirans (I don't mean the government like I did with TP. I mean private Osiran citizens looking to contribute) seem like a natural ally in opening up the SC to involve more regions (i.e. TWP, Osiris, TP, et al.). Wymondham, for example, is an excellent writer, if a little naive when it comes to SC politics. I have a hunch Rach, Altino, Yokiria, and Syberis (?) would be good writers too. Again, I don't know if that makes sense from an FA perspective.

Basically, there's a growing group of writers from regions like TWP and Osiris and TP who want to contribute to the SC but have no idea how to do that, and thus far all that has led to is recklessness and massive failures. They don't have a friendly behemoth like WALL or 10KI to guide them through the process of drafting, so they've had to rely on themselves. Given that the TWP government across administrations has shown so much interest in this commend Halo draft, I can only assume that they want TWP to have more representation in the SC. You guys really just have to start writing and listen to good advice. Really, just start writing and worry about the bureaucracy and politics later.

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Sorry for the rant. I really only intended to pop by :/

[Varanius]

In all seriousness, I’d like to congratulate Borm for writing the first argument of the thread that I actually considered for more than 10 seconds .