[PASSED] Repeal Commend The Holy Principality of Saint Mark

[Crazy girl]

Markings for sources and notes will obviously not be included in the final submitted version.

The Security Council,

Recognising the work of The Holy Principality of Saint Mark (hereinafter referred to as “Saint Mark”) in the West Pacific and other regions, and the respect they command across these regions,

Regretting, however, that their actions and impact were painted in an inaccurate and incomplete light in their commendation, due to the presence of vague, unsubstantiated claims, and the citation of many actions that are dubious in terms of creating a lasting positive impact,

Noting that their actions in “introducing the new Imperial culture” and “amending the Manners of Governance of the West” have failed to confer a lasting positive impact on the West Pacific, and were in fact reversed by their immediate successor as Delegate,¹

Frustrated that their work in Albion was not explained in context of the culture or history of the now-inactive region, thus failing to prove the significance of the work,

Confused by the citation of their contributions to The Sasquatch Republic, given that the region has never exceeded 25 nations in population and is entirely unremarkable in the greater world,

Challenging the citation of their service as Arbiter in the Conclave of The East Pacific in the commendation, given that their only action as Arbiter was their resignation in which they apologised for their “inattention” after an Advisory Question was filed,²

Observing that during their tenure as the “longest serving Priest of Osiris”, they had presided over just a single case in the Council of Priests, and that it remains the only case to have been ruled on by the Council of Priests its over two years of existence, a fact which betrays their lack of accomplishment in the position and the limited utility of the judicial system which they had crafted, which was incompatible with the system of government in Osiris,³

Disappointed by the erroneous description of Saint Mark’s “assistance in forming the News Partnership Framework which established the governance and goals of the NSToday organization”, as the governance and goals of the organization are detailed in its Charter, not the News Partnership Framework,⁴

Further noting that the News Partnership Framework, the establishment of which Saint Mark was credited with assisting, was never publicly explained throughout its existence, and later required renegotiation with all previous partners, due to its ineffectiveness and lack of benefits to participating regions, as admitted by NationStates Today’s then-Public Relations Director,⁵

Questioning, therefore, the effectiveness of the News Partnership Framework in promoting the development of news media in partnered regions, and thus its benefit to the media scene in NationStates at large,

Exasperated further that the commendation failed to go into sufficient detail concerning the alleged achievements of Saint Mark in many cases, including:

• What kind of “internal reform” they encouraged in The Pacific, how it was achieved, which regions in the conflict involving The Pacific they helped “reach accord”;
• How they “[responded] to events both internal and external in a thoughtful, reasoned way” as Delegate of the West Pacific; and
• Their efforts at "protecting and guiding new nations" in Karma;

Concluding that due to the above failures present in the resolution, it does not sufficiently prove its thesis that Saint Mark was “a leader in many aspects of the world”,

Hereby repeals SC#302 “Commend The Holy Principality of Saint Mark”.

The Security Council,

Recognising the work of The Holy Principality of Saint Mark (hereinafter referred to as “Saint Mark”) in the West Pacific and other regions,

Understanding that Saint Mark is a respected nation across these regions,

Disappointed, however, that many actions cited in their commendation are dubious in terms of lasting positive impact, and are painted in an inaccurate and/or incomplete light,

Noting that their actions in “introducing the new Imperial culture” and “amending the Manners of Governance of the West” have failed to confer a lasting positive impact on the West Pacific, and were in fact reversed by their immediate successor as Delegate;¹

Questioning whether their work in Albion, including creating a religion of dubious significance, has left any lasting positive impact on the region;

Doubting the true notability of their contributions to The Sasquatch Republic, given that the region has never exceeded 25 nations in population and is entirely unremarkable in the greater world;

Challenging the citation of their service as Arbiter in the Conclave of The East Pacific in the commendation, given that their only action as Arbiter was their resignation in which they apologised for their “inattention” after an Advisory Question was filed;²

Observing that during their tenure as the “longest serving Priest of Osiris”, they had presided over just a single case in the Council of Priests, and that it remains the only case to have been ruled on by the Council of Priests its over two years of existence, a fact which betrays their lack of accomplishment in the position and the limited utility of the judicial system which they had crafted;³

Confused by the description of Saint Mark’s “assistance in forming the News Partnership Framework which established the governance and goals of the NSToday organization”, as the governance and goals of the organization are detailed in its Charter, not the News Partnership Framework;⁴

Further noting that the News Partnership Framework, the establishment of which Saint Mark was credited with assisting, was never publicly explained throughout its existence, and later required renegotiation with all previous partners, due to its ineffectiveness and lack of benefits to participating regions, as admitted by NationStates Today’s Public Relations Director;⁵

Questioning, therefore, whether they in fact assisted NationStates Today in becoming the “world’s largest news organization”, and if so, whether it has made a positive impact on the world at large;

Also noting that the commendation fails to go into sufficient detail concerning the alleged achievements of Saint Mark in many cases, including:

• What kind of “internal reform” they encouraged in The Pacific, how it was achieved, which regions in the conflict involving The Pacific they helped “reach accord”; and
• How they “[responded] to events both internal and external in a thoughtful, reasoned way” as Delegate of The West Pacific;

Concluding that the resolution does not sufficiently prove its thesis that Saint Mark was “a leader in many aspects of the world”,

Aghast that Saint Mark has openly refused to comply with multiple World Assembly resolutions, including GA#499 “Access to Abortion”, in a clear attempt to undermine the integrity of this very institution, an attitude which should immediately disqualify the nation from recognition by the Security Council,⁶

Hereby repeals SC#302 “Commend The Holy Principality of Saint Mark”.

1. At the start of their delegacy, Saint Mark/Halo announced changes to the Manners of Governance which added a Hall of Peers and a Judicial section. As seen in the news Manners of Governance published by their immediate successor Bran Astor, the Hall of Peers section is nowhere to be found and the Judicial section bears no resemblance to its previous form.

2. A search of all of their posts in the Conclave subforum yields only one post during their time as Arbiter, which is the one I referenced in the text.

3. As seen in Osiris' court subforum, including the Archives, there have been 3 trial threads posted throughout its existence, one of which is a mock trial, another one where charges were dropped almost immediately after being filed, and the only actual trial being Altino v Krotfordamia, which Halo did preside over.

4. The Important Documents page on the NSToday website includes its Charter, which outlines its governance and goals, and there are no documents in that page relating to partnerships.

5. This can be heard in this podcast for the NationStates Great Exhibition, by then-PR Director Wymondham, roughly starting from the 3:58 mark.

6. They are signatory 14 of this dispatch by United Massachusetts.

[Honeydewistania]

Gorundu knows this already but full support.

[Tinhampton]

Present. SC#302 was never a particularly noteworthy or well-written resolution for most people and I would be glad to see the back of it. I do not, however, support the arguments made in the final clause (especially in a Security Council proposal), which appear to have been shoehorned into this proposal in an incredibly belated attempt to jump onto a bandwagon that left the station after Commend Christian Democrats mk3.

[The Unified Missourtama States]

Not for this, but I will leave you some notes:

Noting that their actions in “introducing the new Imperial culture” and “amending the Manners of Governance of the West” have failed to confer a lasting positive impact on the West Pacific, and were in fact reversed by their immediate successor as Delegate;

As you mentioned in the notes, you could not find any reference to the Hall of Peers, I do however know that they had a Hall of peers when I left and continue to this day, it is an internal function of the Hall of Nations, and so is not outlined in the manners of governance of the West, its direction stands usually under the lead of the speaker and acts similar to this security council.

Confused by the description of Saint Mark’s “assistance in forming the News Partnership Framework which established the governance and goals of the NSToday organization”, as the governance and goals of the organization are detailed in its Charter, not the News Partnership Framework;⁴

Further noting that the News Partnership Framework, the establishment of which Saint Mark was credited with assisting, was never publicly explained throughout its existence, and later required renegotiation with all previous partners, due to its ineffectiveness and lack of benefits to participating regions, as admitted by NationStates Today’s Public Relations Director;⁵

When I talked with Wymondham (a governor of NST) in drafting the resolution he offered a very different view of the News Partnership Framework, saying: "It took a month or so to get it signed, but it helped NST so much. Halo has always brought into what NST aims for which is free, open, open source, unbiased journalism. He has consistently demonstrated his support for this through the NST/TWP agreement, his appearance on both Power20 panels, only Roavin and Xoriet also appeared on both panels, his support for our podcasts and his work which he has started already for this years NST Christmas Charity Fundraiser
It says alot about how much NST appreciates halo that he was the only delegate we have ever formally given a farewell message to on behalf of the whole board."
And later in our closing remarks of the interview: "its the least I could do after everything Halo has done not just for NST but for me as a person."

Concluding that the resolution does not sufficiently prove its thesis that Saint Mark was “a leader in many aspects of the world”,

I would put this last, as it is the conclusion that is supposed to destroy the main thesis.

Aghast that Saint Mark has openly refused to comply with multiple World Assembly resolutions, including GA#499 “Access to Abortion”, in a clear attempt to undermine the integrity of this very institution, an attitude which should immediately disqualify the nation from recognition by the Security Council,⁶

You're going to have to repeal a lot of commendations if we're going off of non-compliance (just looking through the most recent commendations); Kuriko, DGES, Audioslavia, Crushing Our Enemies, and 9003 are in non-compliance with WA resolutions.

[Tinhampton]

Kuriko, DGES, Audioslavia, Crushing Our Enemies, and 9003 are in non-compliance with WA resolutions.

Where is your source for this claim? None of these nations (except Audio) are in the WA, and thus have nothing to lose from "non-compliance with WA resolutions..." as far as I can tell, Halo/Saint Mark resigned from the WA a couple of weeks at most after signing the Charter of the International Alliance for the Preborn.

[Gorundu]

Not for this, but I will leave you some notes:

Noting that their actions in “introducing the new Imperial culture” and “amending the Manners of Governance of the West” have failed to confer a lasting positive impact on the West Pacific, and were in fact reversed by their immediate successor as Delegate;

As you mentioned in the notes, you could not find any reference to the Hall of Peers, I do however know that they had a Hall of peers when I left and continue to this day, it is an internal function of the Hall of Nations, and so is not outlined in the manners of governance of the West, its direction stands usually under the lead of the speaker and acts similar to this security council.

I can see that it now appears to be a repository of regional commendations by the Hall of Nations. That's nowhere close to the original purpose it was established for, however, so I think the point stands.

Confused by the description of Saint Mark’s “assistance in forming the News Partnership Framework which established the governance and goals of the NSToday organization”, as the governance and goals of the organization are detailed in its Charter, not the News Partnership Framework;⁴

Further noting that the News Partnership Framework, the establishment of which Saint Mark was credited with assisting, was never publicly explained throughout its existence, and later required renegotiation with all previous partners, due to its ineffectiveness and lack of benefits to participating regions, as admitted by NationStates Today’s Public Relations Director;⁵

When I talked with Wymondham (a governor of NST) in drafting the resolution he offered a very different view of the News Partnership Framework, saying: "It took a month or so to get it signed, but it helped NST so much. Halo has always brought into what NST aims for which is free, open, open source, unbiased journalism. He has consistently demonstrated his support for this through the NST/TWP agreement, his appearance on both Power20 panels, only Roavin and Xoriet also appeared on both panels, his support for our podcasts and his work which he has started already for this years NST Christmas Charity Fundraiser
It says alot about how much NST appreciates halo that he was the only delegate we have ever formally given a farewell message to on behalf of the whole board."
And later in our closing remarks of the interview: "its the least I could do after everything Halo has done not just for NST but for me as a person."

To be honest, most of what you quoted from Wym sounds rather abstract, talking about how he "demonstrated his support" or how he has "always bought into what NST aims for". I have come to my conclusions from the sources I have gathered and which I have listed in this thread, and from the timeline I have in mind I don't believe the current partnership framework that NSToday has is the same as the one Halo signed back in his time. In any case, I never really observed the NST/TWP agreement, or for that matter, pretty much any of the agreements NST has had, make any great impact on the signatory regions or NST in terms of news output. Perhaps one thing that it did help with was NSToday's recruitment of staff and authors from those signatory regions, but if what we see these days is anything to go by, that hasn't necessarily translated to more or better articles.

Concluding that the resolution does not sufficiently prove its thesis that Saint Mark was “a leader in many aspects of the world”,

I would put this last, as it is the conclusion that is supposed to destroy the main thesis.

Aghast that Saint Mark has openly refused to comply with multiple World Assembly resolutions, including GA#499 “Access to Abortion”, in a clear attempt to undermine the integrity of this very institution, an attitude which should immediately disqualify the nation from recognition by the Security Council,⁶

You're going to have to repeal a lot of commendations if we're going off of non-compliance (just looking through the most recent commendations); Kuriko, DGES, Audioslavia, Crushing Our Enemies, and 9003 are in non-compliance with WA resolutions.

Like Tinhampton, I must ask for your sources. As the GA is primarily a roleplay environment, non-compliance is defined by a nation's openly stated intention not to comply with a particular resolution. I can find no instances of those you mentioned having produced a statement of this sort on any resolution.

[The Unified Missourtama States]

Kuriko, DGES, Audioslavia, Crushing Our Enemies, and 9003 are in non-compliance with WA resolutions.

Where is your source for this claim? None of these nations (except Audio) are in the WA, and thus have nothing to lose from "non-compliance with WA resolutions..." as far as I can tell, Halo/Saint Mark resigned from the WA a couple of weeks at most after signing the Charter of the International Alliance for the Preborn.

Although non-member nations are not forced to comply, we should still put them under scrutiny, generally speaking, resolutions of the World Assembly are for the common interests of all people. Furthermore, precedence has been set by other authors that stats and policies are part of C&C'able actions, I would believe that how the player runs a nation is reflective of their IC views this is certainly how I play, and I see this through many other players. Most notably the commendation of Kindjal, being a greatly written piece of roleplay.

As their (The Holy Principality Of Saint Mark) agreement was IC (both written and in stats), and not as a player, I have to agree that they were in direct IC violation of WA law while a member state. I sustain Gorundu's following judgement (however only for this specific case):

As the GA is primarily a roleplay environment, non-compliance is defined by a nation's openly stated intention not to comply with a particular resolution. I can find no instances of those you mentioned having produced a statement of this sort on any resolution.

[Honeydewistania]

Present. SC#302 was never a particularly noteworthy or well-written resolution for most people and I would be glad to see the back of it. I do not, however, support the arguments made in the final clause (especially in a Security Council proposal), which appear to have been shoehorned into this proposal in an incredibly belated attempt to jump onto a bandwagon that left the station after Commend Christian Democrats mk3.

To assert that refusing to commend defiant nations is a bandwagon is ridiculous. Standards should still apply. And the SC, despite what Gruen says, is part of the World Assembly and therefore relevant.

[Fauxia]

Blah blah blah non compliance blah blah blah.

Will support this if you get rid of that line. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the proposal, which is about factual inaccuracies rather than bashing Mark. Besides, it's just a silly reason to oppose a commendation.

[Wymondham]

So, just a few points of order
1. I am no longer the NST PR Director and haven't been since September
2. Firstly, I would note that my views expressed on that podcast were not totally accurate, that is to say they were false, as I was there to sell a particular line about how amazing our new sort of agreement was, and thus deliberately downplayed the old one, quite simply, I lied on that podcast to promote NST's new line, which was due to a change of priorities in the boardroom, not any perceived issues with the frameworks. The news partnership frameworks were incredibly effective, they enabled NST to establish relationships with lots of regions, and got NST's FA off the ground. The news partnership framework with TWP was without doubt, the most important agreement I ever negotiated for NSToday, for 2 reasons. The first agreement NST signed with a major region, all previous agreements had been done by my predecessor with limited success, and often with regions of questionable OOC provenance. The second reason is that, it included an element of cross promotion, it granted NST the right to have its Weekend Edition dispatches pinned on the TWP WFE. Halo took a chance on NST, when I was just finding my feet in PR he took a chance on a region which had, until mere weeks beforehand, been doing agreements with blacklisted regions and was hosting an open season for fascists in our discord, I wish to note that this was all before I became PR Director, dw I didn't go around protecting fash. In the week or so prior to the NST agreement, I had been going round every region I knew, and they all said the same thing to me, "we don't know if we can trust you" - Halo did an agreement with NST and in doing so said, quite publicly, as a well respected member of the NS community, "I trust you". Without that agreement and the effect , NST would have been too much of a political hot potato to do Power20 a month or so later, and we most certainly would never have been able to get the same traction on our Charity Fundraiser as we did in December of that year. I will say this one last time, so I am abundantly clear, the agreement between NST and TWP, which Halo negotiated, in my honest opinion now I'm no longer having to sell a particular line, was without a shadow of a doubt the most important agreement, document or piece of legislation, that NST has signed since its founding.
My apologies if I rambled slightly, trying to do this and schoolwork at the same time was probably not the best idea lol.

[Lord Dominator]

Blah blah blah non compliance blah blah blah.

Will support this if you get rid of that line. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the proposal, which is about factual inaccuracies rather than bashing Mark. Besides, it's just a silly reason to oppose a commendation.

Arguably it's a reasonable argument against someone who is primarily a GA player, it's just that Mark isn't.

Observing that during their tenure as the “longest serving Priest of Osiris”, they had presided over just a single case in the Council of Priests, and that it remains the only case to have been ruled on by the Council of Priests its over two years of existence, a fact which betrays their lack of accomplishment in the position and the limited utility of the judicial system which they had crafted;

I don't think this is a good argument, since you're effectively trying to say that their work isn't meaningful because Osiris doesn't only has criminal trials very rarely for unrelated reasons.

[Nova Vandalia]

All lot of your argument for the repeal of Mark's Commend is based on the lack of information that is available currently, at least to you. I don't think a potential and unverifiable "lack of surviving" or "unavailable to the public" sources makes the strongest case for a repeal. As Wym had come along to correct the points you put forward on the basis of source/note 5.

I would definitely be intrigued to get first hand accounts of how Halo's helped shape the governance from individuals who lead those regions like Altino, Rigel, and the newest Osiris Pharaoh Valerievna, as well from Bran and Dilber who succeeded him in TWP, similiar to Wym's take on it. As to me that would be signifier of the commendation being true than a search of forums and declaring that the commendable actions are "dubious","inaccurate", or were painted in an "incomplete light."

The burden proof for the commendation had already passed muster, in April, and I'm not just seeing enough to dispute that or that anything has changed to warrant a new look at Mark, other than saying there isn't enough proof 8 months too late.

[Honeydewistania]

Blah blah blah non compliance blah blah blah.

Will support this if you get rid of that line. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the proposal, which is about factual inaccuracies rather than bashing Mark. Besides, it's just a silly reason to oppose a commendation.

Arguably it's a reasonable argument against someone who is primarily a GA player, it's just that Mark isn't.

If he isn't a 'GA player', why does he care about a GA proposal so much that he declares noncompliance?

Observing that during their tenure as the “longest serving Priest of Osiris”, they had presided over just a single case in the Council of Priests, and that it remains the only case to have been ruled on by the Council of Priests its over two years of existence, a fact which betrays their lack of accomplishment in the position and the limited utility of the judicial system which they had crafted;

I don't think this is a good argument, since you're effectively trying to say that their work isn't meaningful because Osiris doesn't only has criminal trials very rarely for unrelated reasons.

But it says that the impact it had on the international community, or even Osiris, is not that great, and not commend-worthy

[Honeydewistania]

All lot of your argument for the repeal of Mark's Commend is based on the lack of information that is available currently, at least to you. I don't think a potential and unverifiable "lack of surviving" or "unavailable to the public" sources makes the strongest case for a repeal. As Wym had come along to correct the points you put forward on the basis of source/note 5. [/qupte]

If Gorundu is corrected, he'll stand corrected. But if he isn't (which I'm sure he won't be), then your point is moot.

I would definitely be intrigued to get first hand accounts of how Halo's helped shape the governance from individuals who lead those regions like Altino, Rigel, and the newest Osiris Pharaoh Valerievna, as well from Bran and Dilber who succeeded him in TWP, similiar to Wym's take on it. As to me that would be signifier of the commendation being true than a search of forums and declaring that the commendable actions are "dubious","inaccurate", or were painted in an "incomplete light."

I disagree. As Wym perfectly demonstrated, it's shockingly easy to you know, lie on the internet ( ). If the selling line here is to keep NST's reputation codified in a SC resolution, or have Halo keep a shiny badge, they could easily lie.

The burden proof for the commendation had already passed muster, in April, and I'm not just seeing enough to dispute that or that anything has changed to warrant a new look at Mark, other than saying there isn't enough proof 8 months too late.

Did it? Because there were complaints in the thread and in WA voting threads as a result of lack of evidence or elaboration in April.

[Lord Dominator]

Arguably it's a reasonable argument against someone who is primarily a GA player, it's just that Mark isn't.

If he isn't a 'GA player', why does he care about a GA proposal so much that he declares noncompliance?

I have no idea. Would you care to explain then why non-compliance with GA matters undermines an entirely Gameplay commendation then?

I don't think this is a good argument, since you're effectively trying to say that their work isn't meaningful because Osiris doesn't only has criminal trials very rarely for unrelated reasons.

But it says that the impact it had on the international community, or even Osiris, is not that great, and not commend-worthy

No it doesn't the clause reads that their own accomplishment in that area isn't much. Hard disagree on the lack of impact to Osiris (since it's a pretty good court system, so far as I can tell).

And of course, how I hate that 'commend worthy' idea, as if a single action has to be individually significant enough, where in this case it is pretty clearly in a line of notable contributions to various regions.

[Gorundu]

[snipped to save space]

I must say lying isn't a particularly a good look for an organization that claims to have the aim to deliver objective, unbiased news to the public.
Frankly, I listened to both of your podcasts during NSGE, and I couldn't even really pick up anything that talks up your new partnership agreement and its benefits. In fact it wasn't even clear it was a new agreement until you got to that part in the Q&A. So forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical on your claim. Basically, when you are offering me two versions of events, how am I supposed to trust either one of them?

Anyway, I find the whole thing about Halo taking a chance on NSToday a non-item, in terms of this commendation. Let's take an example we should all know well - CCD. Now, your first reaction might be to balk at the fact that I'm comparing a fascist region to a news organization, but as you admitted yourself, NSToday hosted "an open season for fascists", and CCD also hosted fascists, so I'd say that's a pretty apt comparison. As we all know, CCD is attempting to reform itself right now, just like NSToday was trying to at that time. So, if a reputable region/leader decided to take their chances and open diplomatic relations with CCD at this time, while all the other regions are still not sure if they can trust CCD, and CCD eventually turns out to be alright (i.e. not fascist anymore), is that commendable?

I'm sure Halo signing the agreement was quite a PR success for NSToday, as you have said. But its wider impact? As I've stated in my reply to TUMS, I don't know if there's anything to show for it.

(Edit: I have edited the "Questioning" clause of the proposal to better reflect my statements here and in reply to TUMS.)

All lot of your argument for the repeal of Mark's Commend is based on the lack of information that is available currently, at least to you. I don't think a potential and unverifiable "lack of surviving" or "unavailable to the public" sources makes the strongest case for a repeal. As Wym had come along to correct the points you put forward on the basis of source/note 5.

If you actually read it, this repeal isn't about "lack of surviving" or "unavailable to the public" sources. It's about embellishment and inaccuracies. And there are sources to prove it.

If he isn't a 'GA player', why does he care about a GA proposal so much that he declares noncompliance?

I have no idea. Would you care to explain then why non-compliance with GA matters undermines an entirely Gameplay commendation then?

I thought it's information that some nations would find useful in determining their stance on this proposal, hence why it was included.

But it says that the impact it had on the international community, or even Osiris, is not that great, and not commend-worthy

No it doesn't the clause reads that their own accomplishment in that area isn't much. Hard disagree on the lack of impact to Osiris (since it's a pretty good court system, so far as I can tell).

So far as I can tell, Osiris' court system is a solution looking for a problem. A court system is necessary in a democratic region such as TNP because of the limited ability of the Delegate or security officials to take unilateral action against threats to the region. In a "meritocratic" region such as Osiris, that power is entrusted to the Delegate, making the existence of a court to determine, say, treason, rather moot. That's why you don't see a court system in, for example, TWP. And the lack of court cases in Osiris proves that.

I'll add further that this only court case in Osiris barely tested the system, given the defendant pleaded guilty, so it was all a very straightforward, unconstested process. In fact, it seems that this case doesn't really even need to be resolved by the court, given that the Pharaoh can both ban the guilty nation and deny any citizenship application from them.

Lastly, a power often given to courts is judicial review, which is not granted to the Council of Priests in Osiris, but rather the power to interpret the Constitution lies with the Pharaoh. Another example to demonstrate why the court system is unnecessary.

And of course, how I hate that 'commend worthy' idea, as if a single action has to be individually significant enough, where in this case it is pretty clearly in a line of notable contributions to various regions.

This works the other way around too. In the case of this repeal, it's not about if a single action doesn't pass muster, it's pretty clearly about embellishments and inaccuracies throughout the resolution.

[Nova Vandalia]

Fine let me put it this way. If you're Citing the forums, as proof that this was embellished. I assume that you there for access to ALL of the forum in Osiris, Albion, and TWP including any parts of it that are for citizens, any part require governmental and operational security masking/roles?

Is this true?

Otherwise you're "citation and note" wasn't actually found with due diligence.

I mean should I vote against ever commendation that references a Nation's accomplishment in TITO, since I can't verify it as I don't have access to that part of XKI's forums? I mean hell for all I know it's all embellishments and inaccurate information, and the obvious answer is No I shouldn't. And yet you're asking us to this with a very well respected Nation.

On top of that this would become the 1st ever Repeal on a Commend that isn't due to the Commended Party, later on turning into a quite the IC or OOC despicable Nation. Do you really want to lay down that precedent? Because I'm sure I can't verify to the point of certainty a lot of the previous points made in most commendations, given the SC's long history of them and that way that information disappears over time.

Honestly this whole repeal draft strikes me as odd, contrived and frivolous.

[Gorundu]

Fine let me put it this way. If you're Citing the forums, as proof that this was embellished. I assume that you there for access to ALL of the forum in Osiris, Albion, and TWP including any parts of it that are for citizens, any part require governmental and operational security masking/roles?

Is this true?

Otherwise you're "citation and note" wasn't actually found with due diligence.

I mean should I vote against ever commendation that references a Nation's accomplishment in TITO, since I can't verify it as I don't have access to that part of XKI's forums? I mean hell for all I know it's all embellishments and inaccurate information, and the obvious answer is No I shouldn't. And yet you're asking us to this with a very well respected Nation.

You seem to be purposefully forgetting everything I've said. I'll quote myself for you:

If you actually read it, this repeal isn't about "lack of surviving" or "unavailable to the public" sources. It's about embellishment and inaccuracies. And there are sources to prove it.

Your TITO example makes no sense at all, given it is again trying to say that I'm trying to repeal a commendation because there aren't sources to prove what they have done. In fact, it's because there are sources to prove the opposite.

I invite you to point out anything in the proposal where I was wrong. So far I haven't been proven wrong in any of my research. Just because I don't have access to everything doesn't mean there isn't a clear picture from what I can access.

On top of that this would become the 1st ever Repeal on a Commend that isn't due to the Commended Party, later on turning into a quite the IC or OOC despicable Nation. Do you really want to lay down that precedent? Because I'm sure I can't verify to the point of certainty a lot of the previous points made in most commendations, given the SC's long history of them and that way that information disappears over time.

Honestly this whole repeal draft strikes me as odd, contrived and frivolous.

I suggest you study up on your Security Council history. Out of the 20 commendation repeals that have passed, both for regions and nations, 10 have been because the original resolution was poorly written, contained severe inaccuracies, or the nominee was simply determined to be undeserving even based on the original circumstances: SC#8 Repeal "Commend 10000 Islands", SC#101 Repeal "Commend The Quote Of The Day", SC#142 Repeal "Commend The NationStates Community", SC#161 Repeal "Commend Hobbesistan", SC#166 Repeal "Commend Luna Amore", SC#172 Repeal "Commend Tiago Silva", SC#231 Repeal "Commend Texas", SC#322 Repeal "Commend The Red Fleet", SC#323 Repeal "Commend Kuriko" and SC#330 Repeal "Commend Wintony".

[Makdon]

Fine let me put it this way. If you're Citing the forums, as proof that this was embellished. I assume that you there for access to ALL of the forum in Osiris, Albion, and TWP including any parts of it that are for citizens, any part require governmental and operational security masking/roles?

Is this true?

Otherwise you're "citation and note" wasn't actually found with due diligence.

I mean should I vote against ever commendation that references a Nation's accomplishment in TITO, since I can't verify it as I don't have access to that part of XKI's forums? I mean hell for all I know it's all embellishments and inaccurate information, and the obvious answer is No I shouldn't. And yet you're asking us to this with a very well respected Nation.

Which, if any, of the claims made in this proposal are not backed up with evidence Gorundu provides? What's being talked about in this proposal isn't some vague thing like "a Nation's accomplishment in TITO", it's specific claims made by the original commendation that can be shown to be misleading or embellishing.

On top of that this would become the 1st ever Repeal on a Commend that isn't due to the Commended Party, later on turning into a quite the IC or OOC despicable Nation. Do you really want to lay down that precedent? Because I'm sure I can't verify to the point of certainty a lot of the previous points made in most commendations, given the SC's long history of them and that way that information disappears over time.

This is blatantly false. Repeals have been passed for a multiplicity of reasons since their inception. In fact, the most recent SC repeal of a commendation, authored by me, had nothing to do with the nominee being IC or OOC despicable.

[Fauxia]

Arguably it's a reasonable argument against someone who is primarily a GA player, it's just that Mark isn't.

If he isn't a 'GA player', why does he care about a GA proposal so much that he declares noncompliance?[quote]
Having stances on GA proposals does not make someone a GA player. TRR gets some people (including me) to discuss GA proposals, and I don't think any of us counts or would consider ourselves GA players. Well, besides maybe Gorundu or Morover.

Regardless, as previously stated, the line does not make much sense in a repeal based otherwise entirely on factual inaccuracies or things that render Halo's supposed accomplishments null. This doesn't counter anything, it's the equivalent of saying "but I don't like him!"

[Nova Vandalia]

Which, if any, of the claims made in this proposal are not backed up with evidence Gorundu provides? What's being talked about in this proposal isn't some vague thing like "a Nation's accomplishment in TITO", it's specific claims made by the original commendation that can be shown to be misleading or embellishing.

Except they're not is what I'm saying, I can literally go and asked the people in those communities in Osiris, in TWP, in Albion, those involved with NSToday, although Wymondham already spoke and say hey what is the impact you feel Mark has made. Instead of doing a lazy forum forum search on 3 websites. Hell I am more than glad to talk to Altino, Rigel, Dilber, Bran, Miss Bad Choices, who ever is in charge of Albion, but I also forget they're not the popular girls, so it definitely feels like this is purposefully trying to avoid talking to them or you know the actual communities Mark has influenced, and instead do it with minimal research as proof.

This is blatantly false. Repeals have been passed for a multiplicity of reasons since their inception. In fact, the most recent SC repeal of a commendation, authored by me, had nothing to do with the nominee being IC or OOC despicable.

Ah yeah I admit you're right, this was actually me miss-researching. XD I went back when I looked using the outdated list on the forum. I stand very corrected. Thank you for the correction, but my point on research still stands, that using forums can lead to incorrect assumptions, as it did with my own. Gorundu hasn't talked to those communities at all. He is doing this purely from an outside perspective and Commends are in fact subjective things, so talk to those communities, and see yourself the impact Mark has made, is all I'm saying and the same goes for Gorundu, come talk to the communities he's impacted in stead of hiding behind falsely "objective" research.

[Nova Vandalia]

Last Reply and I'm out. My Argument is you do not know these communities enough to make the decision on if his impact is true to the initial commend. If you're refusing to talk to the communities about the impact and taking a lack of forum posts as proof, then you already know you're in the wrong and are trying to repeal a commend from a deserving nation.

Before you post this talk to Osi, talk to TWP, talk to Albion. I think almost of all of them will say that the impact is true and lasting and major. Not doing so is something worse than cowardice, because you gain from being to afraid to do so.

Also don't call small regions unremarkable, y'all may be in involved in a GCR, that is used to massive numbers, but it diminishes the work those player have put in to those regions. TSR has been around for a while even if it's small it's lasted, and with some great darn nations, and their success wasn't handed to them due to a consistent stream of new players. They still made it into UCR con 3 years have some notable players and embassies.

I know I'm not good at arguing technical. I get overly feisty, and loose my train of thought, and I'm not the best at typing anyways. But this repeal is toxic, when the proof of past commends fades away, and we try to look back and find it lacking I hope we don't repeal further ones, I hope we reach out to those who were still around at the time those in those communities that nation affected and say hey tell us about it, instead of jumping on it hungry for a "Authors" Badge.

I hope you three have a good day, but this is ridiculous and I hope if it does make it to Vote, that the larger community notices it for what is, a bad faith attempt for an Author's Badge.

[Honeydewistania]

Last Reply and I'm out. My Argument is you do not know these communities enough to make the decision on if his impact is true to the initial commend. If you're refusing to talk to the communities about the impact and taking a lack of forum posts as proof, then you already know you're in the wrong and are trying to repeal a commend from a deserving nation.

Since when was a lack of forum posts cited as a reason to repeal?

Before you post this talk to Osi, talk to TWP, talk to Albion. I think almost of all of them will say that the impact is true and lasting and major. Not doing so is something worse than cowardice, because you gain from being to afraid to do so.

Yes, they will say that. And even if they made a true and lasting and major impact on these regions, this commendation does not show that.

Also don't call small regions unremarkable, y'all may be in involved in a GCR, that is used to massive numbers, but it diminishes the work those player have put in to those regions. TSR has been away for a while even if it's small it's lasted, and with some great darn nations, and their success wasn't handed to them due to a consistent stream of new players. They still made it into UCR con 3 years. have some notable players and embassies.

Right, but how has contributing to them benefitted the international community? Or made an impact that should be recognised?

I know I'm not good at arguing technical. I get overly feisty, and loose my train of thought, and I'm not the best at typing anyways. But this repeal is toxic, when the proof of past commends fades away, and we try to look back and find it lacking I hope we don't repeal further ones, I hope we reach out to those who were still around at the time those in those communities that nation affected and say hey tell us about it, instead of jumping on it hungry for a "Authors" Badge.

Pls don’t label stuff you don’t like as OOC toxic, thx.

I hope you three have a good day, but this is ridiculous and I hope if it does make it to Vote, that the larger community notices it for what is, a bad faith attempt for an Author's Badge.

It isn’t, it’s more of an attempt to remove a poorly written resolution. Maybe you should get to know Gorundu more so that you will know that’s not why he is writing this

[Big Bad Badger]

This is completely pointless and mean spirited at one of the truly best humans and best players in this game. Y'all should be ashamed of yourselves going after Halo's commendation like this. There are plenty of low hanging repeals to go after of people who are less worthy of commendation than Halo.

[Nova Vandalia]

Since when was a lack of forum posts cited as a reason to repeal?

The entire time. This doesn't take into account that maybe some of the judicial cases where handled in Discord or in other ways.
It doesn't take into account the same with Arbiter, with his regulations in TWP. He admits his only evidence in most of them are a forum search, of which Gorundu still hasn't offered up if he has access to all of the forums in which he searched. It his notes where he's getting the fact that he feels thing have been overinflated from, and he point to a lack of on forum cases, point to a lack of on forum proof that the House of Peers has had an impact.

[/quote]

Yes, they will say that. And even if they made a true and lasting and major impact on these regions, this commendation does not show that.

It does, and it did to 10,000+ worth of nation with WA votes, because they respected those communities opinion on his lasting impact, and ones that back up what is stated in the initial Commendation.

Right, but how has contributing to them benefited the international community? Or made an impact that should be recognized?

The TSR is well respected in that Niche, one that you haven't visited in a long time Honeydew. Just because you don't feel the impact in big ol' Lazarus doesn't diminish their impact. As I said they're an active community, they're participated in UCR Con helping other UCR's grow and learn the rope of how to stick around. They're host regular events. Are they worthy of a commendation as a region no, but we're not debating that, have they benefited the international community, yes, and is Halo an integral part of it yes..

Pls don’t label stuff you don’t like as OOC toxic, thx.

Fair enough, but in my opinion it is. This is exactly what drives people away from the community at large, and it's more than I just don't like it. I feel like it damages the community to pulls awards away from people damned well deserving of them, and causes retirements of well loved players.

It isn’t, it’s more of an attempt to remove a poorly written resolution. Maybe you should get to know Gorundu more so that you will know that’s not why he is writing this

I know Gorundu, I was at RaiderCon with them we were on the same team trying to win the "Puzzle Prize." I've been on raids with Gorundu. So please don't assume I don't know them. What I do know that the resolution is solid, and is true, and I'm not calling Gorundu a bad Nation, I enjoyed working with him on the Puzzle. I've enjoyed doing raids against fascistic regions with him. I'm calling his actions in this regard, misplaced and incorrect.