NationStates

Reads like any Empire condemnation or — perhaps this is a better way of saying it — the most gameplay-y gameplay proposal. I think people are sick of that, at least if semi-recent resolutions like those of Morover, Noahs Second Country, mine, and others are any indication. If you want a proposal that's going to get overlooked, this really is it.

I don't mean that to insult you or your draft. Your writing is great, but maybe the style is outmoded? Or maybe it was just boring from the start.

I'm hesitant to suggest this, but maybe throw in something subtle but fun (such as a running joke with NeeNee)? Subtle humanization could go a long way with a nominee like this (distant from the major SC community, empire). If you don't think that works (or the nominee doesn't like it), I'd leave it as is.

Bormiar wrote:Reads like any Empire condemnation or — perhaps this is a better way of saying it — the most gameplay-y gameplay proposal. I think people are sick of that, at least if semi-recent resolutions like those of Morover, Noahs Second Country, mine, and others are any indication. If you want a proposal that's going to get overlooked, this really is it.

Interest in the security council starting to pass more than just gameplay resolutions does not mean that people are sick of gameplay resolutions, or that gameplay resolutions are out of style.

As indicated by the passage of everything outside of your examples.

Bormiar wrote:I'm hesitant to suggest this, but maybe throw in something subtle but fun (such as a running joke with NeeNee)? Subtle humanization could go a long way with a nominee like this (distant from the major SC community, empire). If you don't think that works (or the nominee doesn't like it), I'd leave it as is.

That's a fair point. The "Empire" group of players are not widely popular, particularly amongst communities they targeted. An equivalent Condemnation for, say, Biyah, would not pass. The proposal is well-written and has a good amount of content in it, but could do with capturing more of Neenee's personality.

Bormiar wrote:Reads like any Empire condemnation or — perhaps this is a better way of saying it — the most gameplay-y gameplay proposal. I think people are sick of that, at least if semi-recent resolutions like those of Morover, Noahs Second Country, mine, and others are any indication. If you want a proposal that's going to get overlooked, this really is it.

I don't mean that to insult you or your draft. Your writing is great, but maybe the style is outmoded? Or maybe it was just boring from the start.

I'm hesitant to suggest this, but maybe throw in something subtle but fun (such as a running joke with NeeNee)? Subtle humanization could go a long way with a nominee like this (distant from the major SC community, empire). If you don't think that works (or the nominee doesn't like it), I'd leave it as is.

You say yourself as an example, except 3/5 of the resolutions you authored are GP related

Bormiar wrote:Reads like any Empire condemnation or — perhaps this is a better way of saying it — the most gameplay-y gameplay proposal. I think people are sick of that, at least if semi-recent resolutions like those of Morover, Noahs Second Country, mine, and others are any indication. If you want a proposal that's going to get overlooked, this really is it.

I don't mean that to insult you or your draft. Your writing is great, but maybe the style is outmoded? Or maybe it was just boring from the start.

I'm hesitant to suggest this, but maybe throw in something subtle but fun (such as a running joke with NeeNee)? Subtle humanization could go a long way with a nominee like this (distant from the major SC community, empire). If you don't think that works (or the nominee doesn't like it), I'd leave it as is.

The main options include the glittering and the cookie hoarding, for two. A lot of other running jokes are more OOC based and putting them in would be pushing a meta angle which I'd prefer not to do.

The only thing with inserting humor into a fairly serious proposal is that, as Unibot indicated earlier, Empire was taken pretty seriously because of everything they accomplished in terms of region couping or attempts to do so. Mixing seriousness with humor is doable but also might detract as much as add a new angle.

Refuge Isle wrote:

Bormiar wrote:Reads like any Empire condemnation or — perhaps this is a better way of saying it — the most gameplay-y gameplay proposal. I think people are sick of that, at least if semi-recent resolutions like those of Morover, Noahs Second Country, mine, and others are any indication. If you want a proposal that's going to get overlooked, this really is it.

Interest in the security council starting to pass more than just gameplay resolutions does not mean that people are sick of gameplay resolutions, or that gameplay resolutions are out of style.

As indicated by the passage of everything outside of your examples.

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

Xoriet wrote:

Bormiar wrote:Reads like any Empire condemnation or — perhaps this is a better way of saying it — the most gameplay-y gameplay proposal. I think people are sick of that, at least if semi-recent resolutions like those of Morover, Noahs Second Country, mine, and others are any indication. If you want a proposal that's going to get overlooked, this really is it.

I don't mean that to insult you or your draft. Your writing is great, but maybe the style is outmoded? Or maybe it was just boring from the start.

I'm hesitant to suggest this, but maybe throw in something subtle but fun (such as a running joke with NeeNee)? Subtle humanization could go a long way with a nominee like this (distant from the major SC community, empire). If you don't think that works (or the nominee doesn't like it), I'd leave it as is.

The main options include the glittering and the cookie hoarding, for two. A lot of other running jokes are more OOC based and putting them in would be pushing a meta angle which I'd prefer not to do.

The only thing with inserting humor into a fairly serious proposal is that, as Unibot indicated earlier, Empire was taken pretty seriously because of everything they accomplished in terms of region couping or attempts to do so. Mixing seriousness with humor is doable but also might detract as much as add a new angle.

This is what I was going to add the conversation. Xoriet can throw in glitter and cookies and stuff, but not without confusing the reader into thinking it's a satirical condemnation - and I think backhanded commendations are even more insider baseball-ish than sincere condemnations because funny condemnations read as though the author isn't taking the resolution seriously ...

I'm not as concerned about humanizing the nominee (the goal of an effective condemnation is not to humanize the nominee), or disassociating the nominee's work from the Empire: the reality is Neenee worked as a part of a team.

An author should write the resolution for the nominee, not write the nominee for the resolution. The fact is that's how Neenee operated. Inevitably whenever you're writing these kinds of resolutions, the resolution starts reading as a condemnation or commendation of the group as well as the individual nominee (Can you commend PH without commending ADN? Can you condemn Evil Wolf without condemning LWU?).

Bormiar's examples are mostly WA related (which is a bubble in and of itself) and they're all commendations - you can afford to be fun and present the nominee through a soft, individualistic lens when you're writing a commendation. A condemnation, on the other hand, is a testimony, you're making the case, point by point, that the nominee has wronged a litany of communities within NationStates.

I should add I do suspect there may be challenges involved in passing this resolution, but not because the electorate is bored of Gameplay issues, but because of the big delegates at play here...

The author will want to carefully monitor and assess how the big regions (and WALL) are interpreting the resolution and where they're at in terms of level of support. This is always the challenge with passing Gameplay-related C&Cs - the politics within politics. Will GCRs historically impacted by the Empire see this resolution as appropraite or gratuitous? Has Neenee's and the Empire's reputation been rehabilitated in some GCRs? Could you face backlash? Will 10KI interpret this resolution as a backhanded commendation for couping GCRs and vote against on "Anti-Gameplay" grounds - for lack of a better word? I can't answer these questions from my state of quasi-retirement, but that's what I would be preparing myself for if I were authoring this resolution.

Unibot III wrote:Can you condemn Evil Wolf without condemning LWU?

Well apparently people didn't have much of a problem Commending me and Condemning Lone Wolves United, so I think your point falls flat on it's face.

Evil Wolf wrote:

Unibot III wrote:Can you condemn Evil Wolf without condemning LWU?

Well apparently people didn't have much of a problem Commending me and Condemning Lone Wolves United, so I think your point falls flat on it's face.

Once again demonstrating your aptitude for missing the point.

The question is not whether a member of a condemned group can be commended but whether someone can be condemned for the actions they primarily took as a part of a group. The reality is most people work in teams. A condemnation for one player is often a condemnation in turn for a wider group of people who have assisted them.

Following Unibot and Xoriet's arguments, I'd have to agree with them. You really don't want to risk making the Empire look as though it's not serious.

Maybe what I'm looking for is something more individual. A lot of this resolution could be copy and pasted into a condemnation of the Empire, which is a problem because it implies Neenee may be incompetent without the support of the other Empire players (which simply isn't true). While it's to be expected that you'd talk about the Empire a lot, in some cases you could do a lot better to make it more about Neenee. For example:

Deeply concerned by the coup of The East Pacific executed on August 16, 2008, through the satellite nation Lady Phedre and under the aegis of the newly formed Empire. The coup ended some two months after the initial seizure of the region from the sitting legal Delegate, Gnidrah, by gathering endorsements unlawfully until Gnidrah was replaced and the satellite nation of Lady Phedre controlled The East Pacific. Over one-hundred nations were banned from The East Pacific during the coup.

I'm not sure that this clause even mentions Minineenee (which is already a problem). As I understand it, the Empire got a lot more organized during the TEP coup, and its elites were given out roles. I think you should find out what Neenee specifically was doing during the coup and stress that.

Further disturbed by the execution of the unlawful seizure of Osiris in 2012 from the legitimately elected Pharaoh, an effort which was spearheaded by Minineenee’s Empire allies Dalimbar and New Kervoskia but driven by Minineenee.

Here's another glaring example. It sounds like this was the work of NK and Dalimbar, and Minineenee had very little part of it. "Driven by Minineenee" really isn't good enough to make this substantive. I suspect it's intentionally vague because either a) you couldn't find out what Neenee was doing, or b) Neenee didn't do much. I would look into her (?) involvement there more.

Alarmed that Minineenee was further caught attempting to coup several other regions across their time, namely concentrating these efforts in the Sinker regions. Two such regions which Minineenee attempted to coup were:
• The Rejected Realms, both in 2011 and early 2015, attempted by subtly gathering endorsements from unwitting natives of the region through the use of hitherto-unknown satellite nations. Both efforts were outed before they could succeed.
• Lazarus during its Anarchy phase in 2018, an effort made before a stabilized new regime could be enacted by the native populace and which was ultimately thwarted by the then-current delegate, Imkiville.

Introducing the first of the coups by Minineenee with the overthrow of The West Pacific onNovember 2, 2005, wherein Minineenee and their allies in the Core held absolute power under a declaration of martial law following the announcement of dissolution of the constitution with Minineenee as the sitting Delegate. The coup led to a period of instability and chaos in The West Pacific that persisted for many years after.

I really like these two clauses because they're specific to Minineenee. They establish Neenee as competent without Dali and NK and Biyah helping her out. I think you should make the former more prominent, and should fix the typo (marked in red) in the latter.

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I think that the best way to make this about Neenee and not the Empire is to be very specific about what Neenee was doing. Of course, interviewing Neenee is likely the only way to do that, but I don't see you having too much of a problem with that.

The third draft is up, and I worked on addressing points raised by Bormiar, BBD, and Unibot. Some things have been re-stated or rephrased due to placement and wording as well.

I would love to go on about the improper syntax of the proposal here, but I think resolutions perhaps have their own rules.

Support, a more than worthy candidate.

Looking good. And ASBS is back? *waves !!!*

Deeply concerned by the coup of The East Pacific which was executed on August 16, 2008, through the satellite nation Lady Phedre and under the aegis of the newly formed Empire. Through the unlawful gathering of endorsements, Minineenee built up to the coup until Gnidrah was finally replaced and the satellite nation of Lady Phedre controlled The East Pacific. Minineenee's roles were as the ringleader of the group and as the head of the illegitimate government, where they most notably served as the Delegate of the coup government of The East Pacific for the duration of the operation. The coup ended some two months after the initial seizure of the region from the sitting legal Delegate, Gnidrah. Over one-hundred nations were banned from The East Pacific during the coup.

Further disturbed by the execution of the unlawful seizure of Osiris in 2012 from the legitimately elected Pharaoh, an effort which was publicly spearheaded by Minineenee’s Empire allies Dalimbar and New Kervoskia but encouraged and driven by Minineenee behind the scenes, as credit for the inspiration and eventual execution was eventually attributed to Minineenee by the executors of the coup.

Excellent changes here. These clauses went from filler to genuinely substantive. Nice job.

I'm not a fan of condemning members of the Empire, but I just might have to vote for on principal. Seeing a well-written, patiently drafted proposal is very refreshing.

Unibot III wrote:Looking good. And ASBS is back? *waves !!!*

He hangs around TEP if you look for him.

Bormiar wrote:Excellent changes here. These clauses went from filler to genuinely substantive. Nice job.

I'm not a fan of condemning members of the Empire, but I just might have to vote for on principal. Seeing a well-written, patiently drafted proposal is very refreshing.

Thanks for pointing out that they weren't as substantial as they could be. And I'd never forgive myself if I tried to submit a subpar proposal. As for giving a C&C to Empire members, I think that if we can recognize some raiders just for excessive tagging, we could do with observing actions taken by players who achieved truly major feats that impacted the game itself through notable and lasting means, whether those be good or bad.

This is extraordinarily well-written. I have no suggestions.

I may have a couple of minor word smithing suggestions, need to re-read the latest draft when I’m less tired.

However, my overall impression is that this is an excellent piece of work.

Definitely well written! As someone who knows literally nothing about the person in question, this proposal gives you a really dang good impression of who that person is and is told in the right way to convey the person and their story in the light of a condemnation which I far prefer to the cut and paste style of resolution

Some minor suggestions.

Observing that Minineenee spearheaded the formation of Empire, a notorious organization which operated under the cloak of anonymity which was achieved by the promotion of satellite nations to conceal their true identities. Minineenee was the forefront andleader of this group, drove its formation, and contributed greatly to the selection of regions targeted as well as the execution of each of these operations. Empire would go on to execute multiple coups or conduct such attempts on many significant regions across the world from 2008 onwards.

I would suggest that if you're the leader of the group then you are at the forefront - use of forefront possibly superfluous.

For the three paragraphs starting with the one above "execute" or "executed" are used a number of times, just a bit jarring to my eyes. Maybe substitute other words for some of these uses.

These are very minor changes - it is an excellent piece of work.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Some minor suggestions.

Observing that Minineenee spearheaded the formation of Empire, a notorious organization which operated under the cloak of anonymity which was achieved by the promotion of satellite nations to conceal their true identities. Minineenee was the forefront andleader of this group, drove its formation, and contributed greatly to the selection of regions targeted as well as the execution of each of these operations. Empire would go on to execute multiple coups or conduct such attempts on many significant regions across the world from 2008 onwards.

I would suggest that if you're the leader of the group then you are at the forefront - use of forefront possibly superfluous.

For the three paragraphs starting with the one above "execute" or "executed" are used a number of times, just a bit jarring to my eyes. Maybe substitute other words for some of these uses.

These are very minor changes - it is an excellent piece of work.

Fixed up the overuse of the word "execute" and adjusted the wording in the suggested paragraph. Thanks, BBD!

If anyone else has any last suggestions, I'm happy to take them!

Maybe you could elaborate more on how Minineenee tried to coup Lazarus in 2018? Otherwise this is excellent, I'll support.

Honeydewistania wrote:Maybe you could elaborate more on how Minineenee tried to coup Lazarus in 2018? Otherwise this is excellent, I'll support.

Updated with a bit more elaboration. Thanks~

You're a bit of a perfectionist, so I figure I should tell you that using "introducing" and "beginning" as preambulatory phrases seems like the resolution equivalent of "in conclusion".

Bormiar wrote:You're a bit of a perfectionist, so I figure I should tell you that using "introducing" and "beginning" as preambulatory phrases seems like the resolution equivalent of "in conclusion".

Did some tweaking on the perambulatory wording in the second clause.