[DEFEATED] Condemn The Land of Kings and Emperors

[Makdon]

This has been submitted

[Draganisia]

No. I'm going Against this one if it does ever come up for a vote.

And that is really saying something with how much everyone should know I hate raiders.

And the reason is simple. Most of this is just a lie because LKE was not responsible for them or they are otherwise out of context here.

Most of the stuff you say they are responsible for happened years ago under a different government anyways even if they were directly responsible. It would be like condemning the current Japanese government for the stuff Hirohito did during WWII. It's just not going to happen.

And most importantly if the current government was responsible for all of this St Abbaddon wouldn't still have an Embassy with them.

[Makdon]

No. I'm going Against this one if it does ever come up for a vote.

And that is really saying something with how much everyone should know I hate raiders.

And the reason is simple. Most of this is just a lie because LKE was not responsible for them or they are otherwise out of context here.

Most of the stuff you say they are responsible for happened years ago under a different government anyways even if they were directly responsible. It would be like condemning the current Japanese government for the stuff Hirohito did during WWII. It's just not going to happen.

And most importantly if the current government was responsible for all of this St Abbaddon wouldn't still have an Embassy with them.

Could you name any specific thing in this proposal that's a lie? I'm really curious whether you actually could, but I must admit that I very much doubt it. Or at the very least give something that is out of context? It's true that most of this stuff is from years ago, but the region is over a decade old, so what do you expect? As for the "under different govt." bullcrap, that seems blatantly false. Of course over time the people involved will change some, but it's not like there's been a revolution. The same constitution still governs the region, plenty of the old nations are still around, most of the ROs has been in the region for years. Onder's still the emperor emeritus for god's sake. So lets not pretend as though LKE is some sort of reformed monk with no connections to the things they've done in the past

[A Bloodred Moon]

Could you name any specific thing in this proposal that's a lie? I'm really curious whether you actually could, but I must admit that I very much doubt it.

Dunno about him, but I can:

Rebuking in particular the raid of Slavia in UIAF’s war with the FRA, during which UIAF forces held the region for months despite the fact that Slavia was in the process of resigning from the FRA before the invasion took place, and as such LKE was knowingly holding an innocent, uninvolved, and active community hostage and using their war as an excuse for vile conquering,

It's true that most of this stuff is from years ago, but the region is over a decade old, so what do you expect?

Fortunately, not much. The proposal can be summed up in the following points:

1) the LKE raided a bunch of places, only one of which they allegedly attempted to destroy. So condemnable that none of these did lasting damage, indeed. I am also curious to the claim they invaded Hippiedom - it was invaded by The Black Hawks and supported by the LKE, but never invaded by the LKE, from what I can find. They also didn't invade the Union, which was Albion. The UIAF invaded Australia, which, fair, but the UIAF also invaded Canada, which is merely listed as a support operation, and which is arguably more significant. Zhe Intranational Communist doesn't give me any mention of the Land of Kings and Emperors in their WFE- oh won't you look at that, it was held by the Greater German Reich! Very condemnable indeed. Argartha doesn't seem to have existed before 2016 and doesn't seem to have been invaded since then, either.

2) they were a UIAF member. You fail to explain why the UIAF is so condemnable, although you make an attempt by referring everyone to condemn TNI, already condemned for the acts here. This should honestly be the easiest part of the proposal.

3) they held relations with invader regions and organisations and supported some of their raids. Others do so too, but this is bad. Apparently.

4) something about Lazarus. Esteemed natives such as who, by the way? Not disputing it, merely curious.

5) they invaded FRA and UDL regions, among others. I will remind you that they were at war with the FRA and UDL (and not through the UIAF, as your proposal appears to claim). In regards to the other regions you listed (Middle Earth and Schotland), did they claim it was for their war against the FRA?

6) Slavia. An FRA member region at the time, no matter how much you try to deny it. Also hilarious how you continue to claim it was innocent and uninvolved, while it literally attempted to argue it should fall under raider unity for being imperialist - innocent indeed.

7) they supported TNI in Belgium, like everyone else did. They weren't the lead, they didn't organise it, they participated. We already condemned TNI for this.

Onder's still the emperor emeritus for god's sake.

I see someone is embarrassingly unaware of the meaning of "emeritus".

The badgehunt is glaringly obvious, and poorly-researched.

[Honeydewistania]

Not sure why you're alleging a badgehunt here, considering Makdon is already has one

[A Bloodred Moon]

Not sure why you're alleging a badgehunt here, considering Makdon is already has one

I am sure the cards player is unaware that passed resolutions up the rank of the card

[Noahs Second Country]

Not sure why you're alleging a badgehunt here, considering Makdon is already has one

I am sure the cards player is unaware that passed resolutions up the rank of the card

I don't think anyone writes resolutions solely to increase their card rarity lol.

Issues hold much more weight anyway.

[Honeydewistania]

Not sure why you're alleging a badgehunt here, considering Makdon is already has one

I am sure the cards player is unaware that passed resolutions up the rank of the card

Yea, but not by a lot. I don’t think anyone goes through the pain of writing a SC resolution, especially on a pain in the arse resolution like this, for a tiny increase in card rarity.

[Makdon]

1) the LKE raided a bunch of places, only one of which they allegedly attempted to destroy. So condemnable that none of these did lasting damage, indeed. I am also curious to the claim they invaded Hippiedom - it was invaded by The Black Hawks and supported by the LKE, but never invaded by the LKE, from what I can find. They also didn't invade the Union, which was Albion. The UIAF invaded Australia, which, fair, but the UIAF also invaded Canada, which is merely listed as a support operation, and which is arguably more significant. Zhe Intranational Communist doesn't give me any mention of the Land of Kings and Emperors in their WFE- oh won't you look at that, it was held by the Greater German Reich! Very condemnable indeed. Argartha doesn't seem to have existed before 2016 and doesn't seem to have been invaded since then, either.

I'm not going to waste my linking every forum post to prove these.

something about Lazarus. Esteemed natives such as who, by the way? Not disputing it, merely curious.

Sorry I didn't list every native in a proposal that is less than 10 characters under the limit

Slavia. An FRA member region at the time, no matter how much you try to deny it. Also hilarious how you continue to claim it was innocent and uninvolved, while it literally attempted to argue it should fall under raider unity for being imperialist - innocent indeed.

It's innocent in the sense it should no longer have been involved in a struggle between the FRA and the LKE, whether you like it or not.

I see someone is embarrassingly unaware of the meaning of "emeritus".

emeritus: having retired but allowed to retain their title as an honor.
Yes, they have retired, but if LKE has cut ties with it's past raiding as Draganisia alleged, they would hardly have allowed him to retain his title and honor, would they?

The badgehunt is glaringly obvious, and poorly-researched.

k.

[Honeydewistania]

I'm not going to waste my linking every forum post to prove these.

You should, though

[A Bloodred Moon]

I'm not going to waste my linking every forum post to prove these.

So you can’t be bothered to substantiate your claims? Additionally, did the LKE/UIAF invade Soviet Union? From what I can see, they supported Osiris.

Sorry I didn't list every native in a proposal that is less than 10 characters under the limit

Apologies accepted, I suppose? I never asked you to do so, though. I asked of you could tell me what natives you refer to.

It's innocent in the sense it should no longer have been involved in a struggle between the FRA and the LKE, whether you like it or not.

“Should” and “was” are different things. An FRA member region is most definitely part of the FRA-LKE war.

[Drop Your Pants]

Additionally, did the LKE/UIAF invade Soviet Union? From what I can see, they supported Osiris.

Think they got it once when the founder died. Then he came back. Then I got the founder and they tried again....didn't work so well

[Comfed]

Solid for, this is long overdue.

[North American Imperial State]

Will be supporting, well done

[Daytime to Night]

Additionally, did the LKE/UIAF invade Soviet Union? From what I can see, they supported Osiris.

Think they got it once when the founder died. Then he came back. Then I got the founder and they tried again....didn't work so well

We welcome everyone, and for some reason they still keep coming

[Honeydewistania]

I’m now against - there are numerous inaccuracies and it’s poorly researched. If this passed I will repeal it, even though I don’t like the LKE, because that’s how bad this is.

[Makdon]

I’m now against - there are numerous inaccuracies and it’s poorly researched. If this passed I will repeal it, even though I don’t like the LKE, because that’s how bad this is.

Would you care to point out any of the apparently numerous inaccuracies?

[Honeydewistania]

I’m now against - there are numerous inaccuracies and it’s poorly researched. If this passed I will repeal it, even though I don’t like the LKE, because that’s how bad this is.

Would you care to point out any of the apparently numerous inaccuracies?

I apologise - the accuracies aren’t numerous, but your proposal has other problems. (For example, condemning LKE for raiding Nazi territory??) But the inaccuracies are:

1. stating that LKE led the raid against Hippiedom... but they didn’t. They had a supporting role, providing support for The Black Hawks.
2. in the same clause, stating that LKE raided The Union. That’s also false, their close allies Albion did, and they merely supported. Again.
3. also in the same clause, you claim Argartha was raided by the LKE. No region by that name has been invaded by any region ever.
4. Osiris definitely did not reject all FRA influence, because they elected Tim Stark to the delegacy. He was Vice Chancellor and Arch-Chancellor, two rather senior positions.

[Makdon]

(For example, condemning LKE for raiding Nazi territory??)

Which regions that I listed are Nazi territory? If I'd realized that I certainly wouldn't have listed them

stating that LKE led the raid against Hippiedom... but they didn’t. They had a supporting role, providing support for The Black Hawks.
in the same clause, stating that LKE raided The Union. That’s also false, their close allies Albion did, and they merely supported. Again.

Yeah, I'm now realizing I completely screwed up on these. I should've looked back over my sources earlier when this was pointed out, but I trusted my previous research. I don't how I got this wrong initially, but not keeping good track of my sources and then placing my faith in them so strongly is a mistake I certainly won't make again. I'm not sure whether these are worth pulling the proposal over, but I'm gonna think about it.

also in the same clause, you claim Argartha was raided by the LKE. No region by that name has been invaded by any region ever.

I got that straight from the horse's mouth https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=18945230#p18945230

Osiris definitely did not reject all FRA influence, because they elected Tim Stark to the delegacy. He was Vice Chancellor and Arch-Chancellor, two rather senior positions.

Cormac has switched allegiances many, many times. Here is the LKE's statement at the time. https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=15804869&sid=0e85f4cbde225607844785d0d885ff5b#p15804869

[Honeydewistania]

(For example, condemning LKE for raiding Nazi territory??)

Which regions that I listed are Nazi territory? If I'd realized that I certainly wouldn't have listed them

Zhe Intranational Communist, according to WFE archives, belonged to the GGR.

Osiris definitely did not reject all FRA influence, because they elected Tim Stark to the delegacy. He was Vice Chancellor and Arch-Chancellor, two rather senior positions.

Cormac has switched allegiances many, many times. Here is the LKE's statement at the time. https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=15804869&sid=0e85f4cbde225607844785d0d885ff5b#p15804869

Good to know about Cormac, but what about Tim?

[Refuge Isle]

also in the same clause, you claim Argartha was raided by the LKE. No region by that name has been invaded by any region ever.

I got that straight from the horse's mouth https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=18945230#p18945230

Must have been an error or just a lie at the time, because there is no listing on NSHistory of that region ever having more than two people in it.

[Honeydewistania]

I got that straight from the horse's mouth https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=18945230#p18945230

Must have been an error or just a lie at the time, because there is no listing on NSHistory of that region ever having more than two people in it.

I think it's a spelling error: the region Agartha has been raided by LKE.

[Jocospor]

I don't know how popular it will be suggesting that the fall of Westphalia was a bad thing - CCD did a fair amount to defend it at the time because of the region's authoritarian traits. Later, it would turn out that there were traces of OOC fascism as well. That said, the destruction of a region founded in the early 2000s is in itself lamentable, so you might get away with it.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

While this is a detailed and quite well written proposal, too many inaccuracies have come to light to allow me to vote in favour of this Condemnation.

[Groot]

Disappointed by LKE’s multiple attempts to invade the region of Moldavia, which were repeatedly rebuffed by the brave natives, who rated LKE’s invasions 37/60 and 35/60, respectively

What does this mean and how is this remotely relevant?