[DEFEATED] Condemn The Land of Kings and Emperors

[Makdon]

LKE is the only still active imperialist region from the days of UIAF, and the fact they haven't yet been condemned for their long history of raiding is pretty surprising. Two previous attempts have been made at condemning them, one by Silver Shroud and another by Consular, and both failed, but I don't think that is representative of whether or not LKE deserves a condemn. Any and all advice will be appreciated.

The Security Council,

Cognizant that the Land of Kings and Emperors (LKE) is the oldest currently active imperialist region, and of LKE’s consistent pretense that they are not truly an “invader” organization due to their imperialist ideology, despite their consistent and vile history of raiding and associating with raiders,

Appalled by the vast number of invasions that LKE has been responsible for throughout its long history, invading too many regions to comprehensively list, but including:

• Free Thought, which was occupied twice, the second time for a stunning 85 days, and was only freed through a Security Council liberation,
• South Pacific, another region that LKE cruelly occupied twice, and committed an egregious act against during the second occupation, when over 1000 regional message board posts were suppressed, undoubtedly causing dismay and outrage among the natives,
• Marxist Leninist Party, a raid in which the the LKE triumphed over the Defender Security Alliance, a victory which LKE has celebrated for years and has commemorated with other invasions,
• Xedas, where LKE managed to rally the impressive force of 63 nations and repel multiple liberation attempts, a showing of LKE’s continued military activity and strength,
• The Union of Red Nations, Hippiedom, Australia, Argartha, Zhe Intranational Communist, The Union, as well as many others,

Disappointed by LKE’s multiple attempts to invade the region of Moldavia, which were repeatedly rebuffed by the brave natives, who rated LKE’s invasions 37/60 and 35/60, respectively, and amused that despite their obvious defeat LKE continued to claim they had conquered Moldavia and that their emperor held the title of Voivode and Hospodar of Moldavia,

Reproaching LKE’s membership in and involvement with the United Imperial Armed Forces (UIAF), an imperialist military organization that perpetrated numerous acts of war against innocent regions and which contained the condemned region of The New Inquisition (TNI), and that as a member of this organization LKE was involved in many unjust raids,

Disgusted by LKE’s association and military involvement with multiple brutal raiding regions, such as DEN, the Black Riders, Lone Wolves United, Osiris, and The Black Hawks, some of which have been condemned by this body, with which they have committed many cruel invasions of regions, oftentimes entering with the raiding forces or piling on to support later, including but by no means limited to Hogwarts, The Soviet Bloc, Ixnay, Canada, the Coalition of Catholic States, Region Inc, Equestria, the Atheist Empire, Forest, Philippines, Westphalia, Iran, SECFanatics, Dharma, Capitalist Paradise, Concosia, North Atlantic, St Abbaddon, Christmas, Anarchy, Japan, and ASEAN,

Shocked by LKE’s military support for the Lazarus Khanate, a dictatorial regime that couped and occupied the region for an extended period of time and ejected many esteemed natives,

Dismayed by the war that the LKE, as a member of the UIAF, conducted against The Founderless Region Alliance (FRA) and The United Defenders League (UDL), stalwart defending organizations committed to protecting regions from menaces like LKE, and that this resulted in the sacking of many regions, such as the United Defenders League, Belgium, Middle Earth, Liberty Alliance, Scotland, Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union, some of which had no or only tenuous connections to the FRA and UDL,

Rebuking in particular the raid of Slavia in UIAF’s war with the FRA, during which UIAF forces held the region for months despite the fact that Slavia was in the process of resigning from the FRA before the invasion took place, and as such LKE was knowingly holding an innocent, uninvolved, and active community hostage and using their war as an excuse for vile conquering,

Denouncing LKE’s involvement with the raid of The Rejected Realms that TNI perpetrated, in which Onderkelkia, then the emperor of LKE, seized the delegacy through a puppet state,

Aware that LKE used connections with Gatesville to leverage negotiations when Osiris was couped by The Dourian Embassy, and that this ultimately led to the liberation of Osiris, but recognizing that this extended the period during which Osiris was under outside control, that in this time notable natives were unjustly ejected and generally mistreated, that the negotiations resulted in the destruction of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris, replaced by an Osirian government that advocated for the invasion of other regions and rejected all FRA influence, and that LKE and the entire imperialist sphere used the situation for their own personal and political gain,

Hereby Condemns the Land of Kings and Emperors.

The Security Council,

Cognizant that the Land of Kings and Emperors (LKE) is the oldest currently active imperialist region, and decrying the imperialist ideology’s endorsement of and involvement in the invasion of regions,

Appalled by the vast number of invasions that LKE has been responsible for throughout its long history, invading too many regions to comprehensively list, but including Argartha, Zhe Intranational Communist, The Union, Free Thought, South Pacific, Marxist Leninist Party, The Union of Red Nations, Hippiedom, Australia, and Xedas,

Admonishing LKE’s consistent pretense that they are not truly an “invader” organization due to their imperialist ideology, despite their consistent and vile history of raiding and associating with raiders, and recognizing this as nothing more than an attempt to use semantics to pretend to occupy some perceived moral high ground,

Reproaching LKE’s membership in and involvement with the United Imperial Armed Forces (UIAF), an imperialist military organization that perpetrated numerous acts of war against defenders and which contained the condemned region of The New Inquisition (TNI), and that as a member of this organization LKE was involved in many unjust raids,

Disgusted by LKE’s association and military involvement with multiple brutal raiding regions, such as DEN, the Black Riders, Lone Wolves United, Osiris, and The Black Hawks, some of which have been condemned by this body, with which they have committed many cruel invasions of regions, oftentimes entering with the raiding forces or piling on to support later, including but by no means limited to Hogwarts, The Soviet Bloc, Ixnay, Canada, the Coalition of Catholic States, Region Inc, Equestria, the Atheist Empire, Forest, Philippines, Westphalia, Iran, SECFanatics, Dharma, Capitalist Paradise, Concosia, North Atlantic, St Abbaddon, Christmas, Anarchy, The International Kingdom, Japan, and ASEAN,

Dismayed by the war that the LKE, as a member of the UIAF, conducted against The Founderless Region Alliance (FRA) and The United Defenders League (UDL), stalwart defending organizations committed to protecting regions from menaces like LKE, and that this resulted in the sacking of many regions, such as the United Defenders League, Belgium, Middle Earth, Liberty Alliance, Scotland, Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union, some of which had no or only tenuous connections to the FRA and UDL,

Rebuking in particular the raid of Slavia in UIAF’s war with the FRA, during which UIAF forces held the region for months despite the fact that Slavia was in the process of resigning from the FRA before the invasion took place, and as such LKE was knowingly holding an innocent, uninvolved, and active community hostage and using their war as an excuse for vile conquering,

Denouncing LKE’s involvement with the raid of The Rejected Realms that TNI perpetrated, in which Onderkelkia, then the emperor of LKE, seized the delegacy through a puppet state,

Aware that LKE used connections with Gatesville to leverage negotiations when Osiris was couped by The Dourian Embassy, and that this ultimately led to the liberation of Osiris, but recognizing that this extended the period during which Osiris was under outside control, that in this time notable natives were unjustly ejected and generally mistreated, that the negotiations resulted in the destruction of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris, replaced by an Osirian government that advocated for the invasion of other regions and rejected all FRA influence, and that LKE and the entire imperialist sphere used the situation for their own personal and political gain,

Hereby Condemns the Land of Kings and Emperors.

The Security Council,

Cognizant that the Land of Kings and Emperors (LKE) is the oldest currently active imperialist region, and decrying the imperialist ideology’s endorsement of and involvement in the invasion of regions,

Appalled by the raiding that LKE has committed through its long history, invading too many regions to comprehensively list, but including Argartha, Zhe Intranational Communist, The Union, Free Thought, South Pacific, Marxist Leninist Party, Japan, The International Kingdom, The Union of Red Nations, North Atlantic, Christmas, St Abbaddon, Equestria, Dharma, Capitalist Paradise, Hippiedom, Anarchy, Concosia, Australia, and Xedas,

Admonishing LKE’s consistent pretense that they are not truly an “invader” organization due to their imperialist ideology, despite their consistent and vile history of raiding and associating with raiders, and recognizing this as nothing more than an attempt to use semantics to pretend to occupy some perceived moral high ground,

Reproaching LKE’s membership in and involvement with the United Imperial Armed Forces (UIAF), an imperialist military organization that perpetrated numerous acts of war against defenders and which contained the condemned region of The New Inquisition (TNI), and that as a member of this organization LKE was involved in many unjust raids,

Disgusted by LKE’s association and military involvement with multiple brutal raiding regions, some of which have been condemned by this body, such as DEN, the Black Riders, Lone Wolves United, Osiris, and The Black Hawks, with which they have committed many cruel invasions of regions, oftentimes entering with the raiding forces or piling on to support later, including but by no means limited to Hogwarts, The Soviet Bloc, Ixnay, Canada, the Coalition of Catholic States, Region Inc, Equestria, the Atheist Empire, Forest, Philippines, Westphalia, Iran, SECFanatics, and ASEAN,

Disgusted by the war that the LKE, as a member of the UIAF, conducted against The Founderless Region Alliance (FRA) and The United Defenders League (UDL), stalwart defending organizations committed to protecting regions from menaces like LKE, and that this resulted in the sacking of many regions, often times with no or only tenuous connections to the FRA and UDL, such as the United Defenders League, Belgium, Middle Earth, Liberty Alliance, Scotland, Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union,

Rebuking in particular the raid of Slavia in UIAF’s war with the FRA, during which UIAF forces held the region for months despite the fact that Slavia had resigned from the FRA before the invasion took place, and as such LKE was holding an innocent, uninvolved, and active community hostage and using their war as an excuse for vile conquering,

Denouncing LKE’s involvement with the coup of The Rejected Realms that TNI perpetrated, in which Onderkelkia, then the emperor of LKE, seized the delegacy through a puppet state,

Aware that LKE used connections with Gatesville to leverage negotiations when Osiris was raided by The Dourian Embassy, and that this ultimately led to the liberation of Osiris, but recognizing that this extended the period during which Osiris was under outside control, that in this time notable natives were unjustly ejected and generally mistreated, that the negotiations resulted in the destruction of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris, replaced by an Osirian government that advocated for the invasion of other region and expelled the FRA, and that LKE and the entire imperialist sphere used the situation for their own personal and political gain,

Hereby Condemns the Land of Kings and Emperors.

[Fauxia]

Double check the names of all regions listed. A few of them include typos (Marxist Lennist Party, Capitalist Paradies)

[Makdon]

Double check the names of all regions listed. A few of them include typos (Marxist Lennist Party, Capitalist Paradies)

Fixed, Thanks

[A Bloodred Moon]

Another proposal saying "raiderz bad" and nothing else, and not a particularly well-written one, either.

Appalled by the raiding that LKE has committed through its long history, invading too many regions to comprehensively list, but including Argartha, Zhe Intranational Communist, The Union, Free Thought, South Pacific, Marxist Lennist Party, Japan, The International Kingdom, The Union of Red Nations, North Atlantic, Christmas, St Abbaddon, Equestria, Dharma, Capitalist Paradies, Hippiedom, Anarchy, Concosia, Australia, and Xedas,

Ah yes, Dharma and Capitalist Paradise, both TBH raids and not LKE. Concosia and North Atlantic, which was TNI, not LKE. St Abbaddon, which to my recollection has been raided by TBH, DEN and BoM, none of which are LKE. Your research is as poor as your wording - "the raiding that LKE has committed"? How does one "commit raiding"?

I look forward to your attempted condemns of TNP, TWP, Balder and Osiris, if this is the precedent we're setting.

Admonishing LKE’s consistent pretense that they are not truly an “invader” organization due to their imperialist ideology, despite their consistent and vile history of raiding and associating with raiders, and recognizing this as nothing more than an attempt to use semantics to pretend to occupy some perceived moral high ground,

Hear that, TNP, TWP, Europeia? You're all using semantics to pretend to occupy the moral high ground, too.

Reproaching LKE’s membership in and involvement with the United Imperial Armed Forces (UIAF), an imperialist military organization that perpetrated numerous acts of war against defenders and which contained the condemned region of The New Inquisition (TNI), and that as a member of this organization LKE was involved in many unjust raids,

A non-argument, saying "raiderz bad". No surprise, though - this entire proposal consists of nothing but "raiderz bad".

Disgusted by LKE’s association and military involvement with multiple brutal raiding regions, some of which have been condemned by this body, such as DEN, the Black Riders, Lone Wolves United, Osiris, and The Black Hawks, with which they have committed many cruel invasions of regions, oftentimes entering with the raiding forces or piling on to support later, including but by no means limited to Hogwarts, The Soviet Bloc, Ixnay, Canada, the Coalition of Catholic States, Region Inc, Equestria, the Atheist Empire, Forest, Philippines, Westphalia, Iran, SECFanatics, and ASEAN,

Osiris was never condemned, but don't let facts get in your way.

Again, "they supported!" can be said for other regions, including, but by no means limited to, TNP, TWP, TSP, TEP, Europeia, and countless others. Why are you not as morally outraged towards them?

Disgusted by the war that the LKE, as a member of the UIAF, conducted against The Founderless Region Alliance (FRA) and The United Defenders League (UDL), stalwart defending organizations committed to protecting regions from menaces like LKE, and that this resulted in the sacking of many regions, often times with no or only tenuous connections to the FRA and UDL, such as the United Defenders League, Belgium, Middle Earth, Liberty Alliance, Scotland, Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union,

"They declared war and followed up on it! This is an outrage!"

Rebuking in particular the raid of Slavia in UIAF’s war with the FRA, during which UIAF forces held the region for months despite the fact that Slavia had resigned from the FRA before the invasion took place, and as such LKE was holding an innocent, uninvolved, and active community hostage and using their war as an excuse for vile conquering,

This is inaccurate, to my knowledge. While Slavia had expressed a desire to leave the FRA, it had not taken the correct steps to do so. Crying that it was an uninvolved community seems silly when it was not, in fact, uninvolved or innocent - indeed, Slavia attempted to claim it was imperialist (the very ideology you are condemning) and that the UIAF's invasion of Slavia therefore violated raider unity.

Denouncing LKE’s involvement with the coup of The Rejected Realms that TNI perpetrated, in which Onderkelkia, then the emperor of LKE, seized the delegacy through a puppet state,

What are you calling a coup? TNI (again, not the LKE) invaded the crown jewel of an alliance they had declared war on. There was no coup.

Aware that LKE used connections with Gatesville to leverage negotiations when Osiris was raided by The Dourian Embassy, and that this ultimately led to the liberation of Osiris, but recognizing that this extended the period during which Osiris was under outside control, that in this time notable natives were unjustly ejected and generally mistreated, that the negotiations resulted in the destruction of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris, replaced by an Osirian government that advocated for the invasion of other region and expelled the FRA, and that LKE and the entire imperialist sphere used the situation for their own personal and political gain,

Oh, so this you are calling a raid, except it was a coup.

Emphasis mine. So the LKE liberated Osiris, but they couldn't prevent all the harm, so they're to be condemned? I will keep this in mind if I ever want to condemn defenders.

Italic - oh? Did the FRA have a presence in Osiris? Do tell me more.

It is odd to me that you say the LKE is somehow responsible for the death of the Kemetic Republic. From what I know, the Kemetic Republic was at least partially threatened by the Empire, and Gatesville's coup sped up the process. The LKE, in fact, supported a functional government in the Osiris Fraternal Order - the very same government you are now condemning, and the predecessor government to the current government.

Hereby Condemns the Land of Kings and Emperors.

What's with the capitalisation of 'condemns'?

[Sedgistan]

this resulted in the sacking of many regions, often times with no or only tenuous connections to the FRA and UDL, such as the United Defenders League, Belgium, Middle Earth, Liberty Alliance, Scotland, Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union,

One small point - this reads really badly. If you're going to say these regions had little connection to those orgs, don't start with one named after the org.

Also Liberty Alliance and Soviet Union were both at times members of the FRA.

[Makdon]

Another proposal saying "raiderz bad" and nothing else, and not a particularly well-written one, either.

Forgive me, I had forgotten that raiding obviously isn't condemnable. My apologies.

Ah yes, Dharma and Capitalist Paradise, both TBH raids and not LKE. Concosia and North Atlantic, which was TNI, not LKE. St Abbaddon, which to my recollection has been raided by TBH, DEN and BoM, none of which are LKE. Your research is as poor as your wording - "the raiding that LKE has committed"? How does one "commit raiding"?

It's hard to tell which raids LKE was responsible for and which ones they just helped out in from their GP thread, which I used for most of my research. Thanks for the correction. As to how one commits raiding, I'd imagine by raiding. I'll change it, you're right that it sounds terrible

I look forward to your attempted condemns of TNP, TWP, Balder and Osiris, if this is the precedent we're setting.

There are reasons why those regions aren't condemable, in my opinion, but thanks for the slippery slope argument. How nice.

Hear that, TNP, TWP, Europeia? You're all using semantics to pretend to occupy the moral high ground, too.

This proposal isn't about them, one wonders why you keep bringing them up.

A non-argument, saying "raiderz bad". No surprise, though - this entire proposal consists of nothing but "raiderz bad".

It's incredible how many times you seem to be able to be amazed by the SC condeming raiders.

Osiris was never condemned, but don't let facts get in your way.

It's funny how I actually didn't say they were. Maybe try rereading that section. Commas are important.

Again, "they supported!" can be said for other regions, including, but by no means limited to, TNP, TWP, TSP, TEP, Europeia, and countless others. Why are you not as morally outraged towards them?

Could you remind me the last time TSP raided with TBH? Also, I had forgotten I need to include every region that could be considered IC bad in my condemnation of a different region, thanks for the reminder.

"They declared war and followed up on it! This is an outrage!"

Once again, I was rather under the impression that the SC was a fan of defenders

This is inaccurate, to my knowledge. While Slavia had expressed a desire to leave the FRA, it had not taken the correct steps to do so. Crying that it was an uninvolved community seems silly when it was not, in fact, uninvolved or innocent - indeed, Slavia attempted to claim it was imperialist (the very ideology you are condemning) and that the UIAF's invasion of Slavia therefore violated raider unity.

Lets quote The North Polish Union, a citizen of Slavia at the time:

Slavia ended its association with the FRA on January 24; the region was raided for "being an FRA member" on January 2, well after Slavia's withdrawal from the FRA; given the apparent confusion on the part of the FRA a further clarification of our December 24 withdrawal was made on January 3.

In all honesty, I would not object to any justification of the January 2 raid except for the erroneous and slanderous justification that was chosen on the UIAF's part.

Seems like Slavia thought a bit differently about it.

What are you calling a coup? TNI (again, not the LKE) invaded the crown jewel of an alliance they had declared war on. There was no coup.

Ok, I'll change it.

Oh, so this you are calling a raid, except it was a coup.

Emphasis mine. So the LKE liberated Osiris, but they couldn't prevent all the harm, so they're to be condemned? I will keep this in mind if I ever want to condemn defenders.

Italic - oh? Did the FRA have a presence in Osiris? Do tell me more.

It is odd to me that you say the LKE is somehow responsible for the death of the Kemetic Republic. From what I know, the Kemetic Republic was at least partially threatened by the Empire, and Gatesville's coup sped up the process. The LKE, in fact, supported a functional government in the Osiris Fraternal Order - the very same government you are now condemning, and the predecessor government to the current government.

I'll change this to coup as well. LKE moved into Osiris, endorsed the dourian embassy, and then waited around until they could make the negotiations go exactly the way they wanted them to, so liberated isn't exactly the word I'd use. They weren't solely responsible for what happened, but they certainly had a part in it. Also, about the FRA thing, lets take a look at LKE's press release on this: " A precondition to achieving the former objectives was naturally the removal of FRA and UDL influence".

What's with the capitalisation of 'condemns'?

It's stylistic. Thanks for the help

One small point - this reads really badly. If you're going to say these regions had little connection to those orgs, don't start with one named after the org.

Also Liberty Alliance and Soviet Union were both at times members of the FRA.

Once again, this is a comma thing, where my phrase doesn't necessarily apply to all the things listed after it, however since it's clearly confusing I'll change the order. Thanks for the help

[A Bloodred Moon]

Another proposal saying "raiderz bad" and nothing else, and not a particularly well-written one, either.

Forgive me, I had forgotten that raiding obviously isn't condemnable. My apologies.

Given how many regions raid, and how few are condemned, one would have to do something incredible to stand out. The New Inquisition was condemned (largely for the actions you are now trying to condemn the LKE for), but that proposal at least contained something other than support missions and standard, generally non-destructive raids. I am not disputing that the LKE may be condemnable, I am saying this proposal does not make a convincing argument to me as to what they did to stand out.

Ah yes, Dharma and Capitalist Paradise, both TBH raids and not LKE. Concosia and North Atlantic, which was TNI, not LKE. St Abbaddon, which to my recollection has been raided by TBH, DEN and BoM, none of which are LKE. Your research is as poor as your wording - "the raiding that LKE has committed"? How does one "commit raiding"?

It's hard to tell which raids LKE was responsible for and which ones they just helped out in from their GP thread, which I used for most of my research. Thanks for the correction. As to how one commits raiding, I'd imagine by raiding. I'll change it, you're right that it sounds terrible

Thank you, even if we could do without the irrelevant, snarky response.

Hear that, TNP, TWP, Europeia? You're all using semantics to pretend to occupy the moral high ground, too.

This proposal isn't about them, one wonders why you keep bringing them up.

I doubt you truly have to wonder. After all, you're arguing that if a region raids, it is condemnable - your proposal is based on it. Furthermore, you are dismissing the LKE's ideological reasoning for it's actions as "an attempt to hide behind semantics" - the reasoning extends to using raiding (and, not to forget, defending) as a tool of foreign policy, which is what the NPA and Europeia also do. It is not at all far-fetched to argue you are applying a double standard.

Osiris was never condemned, but don't let facts get in your way.

It's funny how I actually didn't say they were. Maybe try rereading that section. Commas are important.

Apologies, it appears I have misread that section.

Again, "they supported!" can be said for other regions, including, but by no means limited to, TNP, TWP, TSP, TEP, Europeia, and countless others. Why are you not as morally outraged towards them?

Could you remind me the last time TSP raided with TBH? Also, I had forgotten I need to include every region that could be considered IC bad in my condemnation of a different region, thanks for the reminder.

Please point to me where I stated TSP raided with TBH. I said TSP raided/supported raids in the past.

It is rather obvious you are deliberately missing the point, but that is no surprise.

"They declared war and followed up on it! This is an outrage!"

Once again, I was rather under the impression that the SC was a fan of defenders

The SC is supposed to be a defender mouthpiece because that's your impression of it? Also, if I do recall, the war against the FRA was declared because the latter invaded one of their colonies - not because they defended.

This is inaccurate, to my knowledge. While Slavia had expressed a desire to leave the FRA, it had not taken the correct steps to do so. Crying that it was an uninvolved community seems silly when it was not, in fact, uninvolved or innocent - indeed, Slavia attempted to claim it was imperialist (the very ideology you are condemning) and that the UIAF's invasion of Slavia therefore violated raider unity.

Lets quote The North Polish Union, a citizen of Slavia at the time:

Slavia ended its association with the FRA on January 24; the region was raided for "being an FRA member" on January 2, well after Slavia's withdrawal from the FRA; given the apparent confusion on the part of the FRA a further clarification of our December 24 withdrawal was made on January 3.

In all honesty, I would not object to any justification of the January 2 raid except for the erroneous and slanderous justification that was chosen on the UIAF's part.

Seems like Slavia thought a bit differently about it.

You say that as if I disputed that Slavia wished to leave the FRA. In fact, I stated the opposite. What I did dispute was the statement that Slavia was not a part of the FRA. The FRA was confused whether they wanted to leave or not, and Slavia had not withdrawn correctly.

What are you calling a coup? TNI (again, not the LKE) invaded the crown jewel of an alliance they had declared war on. There was no coup.

Ok, I'll change it.

Thank you.

Oh, so this you are calling a raid, except it was a coup.

Emphasis mine. So the LKE liberated Osiris, but they couldn't prevent all the harm, so they're to be condemned? I will keep this in mind if I ever want to condemn defenders.

Italic - oh? Did the FRA have a presence in Osiris? Do tell me more.

It is odd to me that you say the LKE is somehow responsible for the death of the Kemetic Republic. From what I know, the Kemetic Republic was at least partially threatened by the Empire, and Gatesville's coup sped up the process. The LKE, in fact, supported a functional government in the Osiris Fraternal Order - the very same government you are now condemning, and the predecessor government to the current government.

I'll change this to coup as well. LKE moved into Osiris, endorsed the dourian embassy, and then waited around until they could make the negotiations go exactly the way they wanted them to, so liberated isn't exactly the word I'd use. They weren't solely responsible for what happened, but they certainly had a part in it. Also, about the FRA thing, lets take a look at LKE's press release on this: " A precondition to achieving the former objectives was naturally the removal of FRA and UDL influence".

It was not at all clear that that was what you intended to say. You said the new Osiran government expelled the FRA - for them to be able to do this, there'd have to be an FRA presence within the region.

What's with the capitalisation of 'condemns'?

It's stylistic. Thanks for the help

Another thing I noticed was that the last clause says "...advocated for the invasion of other region..."

[Makdon]

Given how many regions raid, and how few are condemned, one would have to do something incredible to stand out. The New Inquisition was condemned (largely for the actions you are now trying to condemn the LKE for), but that proposal at least contained something other than support missions and standard, generally non-destructive raids. I am not disputing that the LKE may be condemnable, I am saying this proposal does not make a convincing argument to me as to what they did to stand out.

I think that being and active raiding force for over a decade, being one of the key regions in UIAF, having played a large part in the development of imperialist ideology, and having been involved in the takeovers of 2 GCRs is enough for a condemnation, and all of that is represented here. What do you think I should be mentioning that I'm not?

I doubt you truly have to wonder. After all, you're arguing that if a region raids, it is condemnable - your proposal is based on it. Furthermore, you are dismissing the LKE's ideological reasoning for it's actions as "an attempt to hide behind semantics" - the reasoning extends to using raiding (and, not to forget, defending) as a tool of foreign policy, which is what the NPA and Europeia also do. It is not at all far-fetched to argue you are applying a double standard.

To my knowledge, TNP and Europeia have not consistently been raiding forces for over a decade, have not been important to the development of imperialist ideology, have not been a key player in UIAF, and haven't been involved in the takeovers of 2 GCRs. Please inform if I'm wrong on those points. I don't think that raiding necessarily means you deserve a condemnation, I think the extent to which LKE has raided is the reason they deserve it.

Please point to me where I stated TSP raided with TBH. I said TSP raided/supported raids in the past.

It is rather obvious you are deliberately missing the point, but that is no surprise.

Supporting a raid or two is hardly the same as all out endorsing a raiding organization and taking part in numerous raids with it. I can't see any reason to equivocate them.

The SC is supposed to be a defender mouthpiece because that's your impression of it? Also, if I do recall, the war against the FRA was declared because the latter invaded one of their colonies - not because they defended.

I don't think that condemning a raiding organization makes the SC a defender mouthpiece. It commends IC good and condemns IC bad. That's the way it works. It's not an attack on raiding, it's the way it's recognized by the SC. As to the reasoning behind the war, I wasn't aware that was the case, and have asked some people about it. They suggested FRA defended a region TNI was attempting to colonize, which caused TNI to declare war, and years later defended a region they wrongly thought LKE was invading, while it was in fact a colony founded by LKE. According to them, FRA recognized it had made a mistake but LKE refused to believe that, and used it as an impetus for war. They also suggested that FRA didn't treat UIAF differently than any other raiding organization despite the supposed war, and that they never officially declared war. I am inclined to believe these accounts, but understand this is debated and contentious subject. However, regardless of the justification, the war was nonetheless one between raiders and defenders, during which LKE took part in some largely unjustified raids.

You say that as if I disputed that Slavia wished to leave the FRA. In fact, I stated the opposite. What I did dispute was the statement that Slavia was not a part of the FRA. The FRA was confused whether they wanted to leave or not, and Slavia had not withdrawn correctly.

So LKE raided a region because it was trying to not be part of a organization LKE was at war with? Hardly a stellar justification, in my opinion.

It was not at all clear that that was what you intended to say. You said the new Osiran government expelled the FRA - for them to be able to do this, there'd have to be an FRA presence within the region.

It seems to me that quote from the press release suggests there was a FRA presence? Perhaps this is a misunderstanding surrounding the use of the word expel - I don't necessarily mean that FRA members were kicked from Osiris, but that FRA would no longer be able to work with Osiris.

Another thing I noticed was that the last clause says "...advocated for the invasion of other region..."

Fixed, thank you.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Someone cam correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, but wasn't LKE working behind the scenes with the Osiris government to liberate the region from the coupers the entire time?

[A Bloodred Moon]

I think that being and active raiding force for over a decade, being one of the key regions in UIAF, having played a large part in the development of imperialist ideology, and having been involved in the takeovers of 2 GCRs is enough for a condemnation, and all of that is represented here.

All of which we condemned TNI for already. Should the LKE be condemned for the same things? Sounds like badge-hunting to me.

What do you think I should be mentioning that I'm not?

It's not my proposal, that's on you.

To my knowledge, TNP and Europeia have not consistently been raiding forces for over a decade,

Then your knowledge fails you, because Europeia absolutely has been raiding for over a decade.

have not been important to the development of imperialist ideology,

The same ideology you are now dismissing as simply "hiding behind semantics" because it argued raiding and defending should be used to advance your regional interests?

I don't think that raiding necessarily means you deserve a condemnation, I think the extent to which LKE has raided is the reason they deserve it.

You don't think raiding means you deserve a condemnation? That's extremely weird, since you are the one saying it is:

Forgive me, I had forgotten that raiding obviously isn't condemnable. My apologies.

Supporting a raid or two is hardly the same as all out endorsing a raiding organization and taking part in numerous raids with it. I can't see any reason to equivocate them.

No? TNP and Europeia have supported many raids, but somehow the LKE is the one "all out endorsing a raiding organisation" (source?) and "taking part in numerous raids with it", which is exactly what TNP, Europeia, Balder, TSP (in the past) have done.

It's not an attack on raiding, it's the way it's recognized by the SC.

You know that is bullshit, because the LKE expressedly does not want a condemnation and it's in no way "recognising" them.

As to the reasoning behind the war, I wasn't aware that was the case, and have asked some people about it. They suggested FRA defended a region TNI was attempting to colonize, which caused TNI to declare war, and years later defended a region they wrongly thought LKE was invading, while it was in fact a colony founded by LKE. According to them, FRA recognized it had made a mistake but LKE refused to believe that, and used it as an impetus for war.

Okay, who did you ask? The old FRA members? Of course you're going to get the "the FRA was innocent!" tale from the FRA if you only ask them.

However, regardless of the justification, the war was nonetheless one between raiders and defenders, during which LKE took part in some largely unjustified raids.

The war was one between an imperialist region, it's allies, and the defenders that invaded their colony, not raiders and defenders. As to your last part, you're being dishonest - again. You are, as per your proposal, "disgusted by the war that the LKE... conducted against The Founderless Region Alliance", not just with it's unjustified raids.

So LKE raided a region because it was trying to not be part of a organization LKE was at war with? Hardly a stellar justification, in my opinion.

The LKE invaded a region that was part of an alliance they were at war with. Slavia had not officially resigned from the FRa and it was not innocent nor uninvolved. You can give your opinion all you want, but your proposal is misleading and inaccurate.

It seems to me that quote from the press release suggests there was a FRA presence? Perhaps this is a misunderstanding surrounding the use of the word expel - I don't necessarily mean that FRA members were kicked from Osiris, but that FRA would no longer be able to work with Osiris.

That's an odd usage of the word, since expel does not at all mean what you are attempting to say.

Do you have evidence the LKE invaded Japan, The International Kingdom, Christmas, Equestria or Anarchy? To my knowledge, all of those were raided by others, though the LKE may have supported.

[Sancta Romana Ecclesia]

Oh sh#t, here we go again.

LKE feels like a condemnable region but I don't think this makes a good case for it. It's just listing the alliances they had and some wars they fought, without really explaining why this is condemnation material.

Even 2 years ago, when my grudges with LKE were fresh, I would not suppport this, much less now.

[Daytime to Night]

As others have commented, I am not convinced LKE warrants a condemnation. The region predominantly keeps to itself and has otherwise simply been a lackey of more objectionable groups/regions and a victim of their former Emperor's shortcomings.

However, if you were looking to continue with this then you might want to look into the invasion of TNI that LKE undertook, and the banning and suppression of natives there prior to password locking the region - bearing in mind this was one of their closest allies. The evidence is still visible on the region today.

The fall out from those events also resulted in their former Emperor torpedo-ing LKE's relations with the Albion - another close ally - because he was unable to take a joke. Probably more humorous than condemnable but it shows that their poor actions and judgment have hurt not only their chosen enemies but those who previously stood alongside them also.

[Makdon]

Someone cam correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, but wasn't LKE working behind the scenes with the Osiris government to liberate the region from the coupers the entire time?

Cormac, the rightful delegate of Osiris at the time, said this in the thread for his ultimately abandoned condemn LKE draft:

Do you think The LKE did commendable work toward Osiris when it deployed in support of The Dourian Embassy, well before any plan between Osiris and the UIAF? Do you think The LKE did commendable work against The Rejected Realms, another region you once called home? Do you think it did commendable work against the FRA, former Archchancellor?

I doesn't appear as though he was of the opinion that LKE was doing it to help Osiris.

All of which we condemned TNI for already. Should the LKE be condemned for the same things? Sounds like badge-hunting to me.

I am already an SC author so this falls a bit flat, but thanks for calling my motives into question. As to whether we should be condemning LKE, I think the answer is certainly yes, otherwise I wouldn't have written this. LKE and TNI are not interchangeable, and as such they are just as guilty of those coups, as well as their raiding and ideology. They have each played their unique roles, and they have each earned condemnation.

It's not my proposal, that's on you.

I just though that since you indicated you thought there was more LKE had done that was condemnable you might be willing to share it, but it was obviously silly of me to think you would be willing to do anything as helpful as that.

Then your knowledge fails you, because Europeia absolutely has been raiding for over a decade.

Thank you for the correction. Nonetheless, Europeia hasn't been involved in 2 GCR coups, among other things, so this still doesn't change my mind.

The same ideology you are now dismissing as simply "hiding behind semantics" because it argued raiding and defending should be used to advance your regional interests?

The ideology was used as a justification for raiding in the sense that it allowed imperialists to claim that their raiding was a deserved right and that defending was an act of war since that interfered with their right. It's a creates a combative region in a way regular raiding does not, and to reduce it to using raiding and defending to advance your regional interests is incorrect at best and disingenuous at worst.

You don't think raiding means you deserve a condemnation? That's extremely weird, since you are the one saying it is:

Those quotes are fairly obviously referencing different things, but it's not surprising you would try to take them out of context. You initially attacked my proposal because it condemned a raider for raiding, and I responded by pointing out that the SC quite often condemns raiders for raiding. You then brought up other raiding groups asking whether I'd want to condemn then, to which I responded by saying that not all raiders who raid deserve condemnations. Obviously the fact those two can both be true is a bit hard for you, but I hope this helps you understand.

No? TNP and Europeia have supported many raids, but somehow the LKE is the one "all out endorsing a raiding organisation" (source?) and "taking part in numerous raids with it", which is exactly what TNP, Europeia, Balder, TSP (in the past) have done.

I'm not going to continue discussing whether or not TNP and Europeia are condemnable anymore. Yes, raiding is condemnable, no, not every instance of raiding is condemnable.

You know that is bullshit, because the LKE expressedly does not want a condemnation and it's in no way "recognising" them.

Pray tell what it is then, because claiming it's an attack is also clearly bullshit.

Okay, who did you ask? The old FRA members? Of course you're going to get the "the FRA was innocent!" tale from the FRA if you only ask them.

You hardly seems like an unbiased source yourself. Regardless, it was, as I have already said, a war between raiders and defenders, and whatever the impetus was, by LKE's own policy, it would be nearly impossible to be a defending group without starting a war with them, unless you just decided to never defend LKE raids.

The war was one between an imperialist region, it's allies, and the defenders that invaded their colony, not raiders and defenders. As to your last part, you're being dishonest - again. You are, as per your proposal, "disgusted by the war that the LKE... conducted against The Founderless Region Alliance", not just with it's unjustified raids.

Remind me again why imperialists aren't raiders?

The LKE invaded a region that was part of an alliance they were at war with. Slavia had not officially resigned from the FRa and it was not innocent nor uninvolved. You can give your opinion all you want, but your proposal is misleading and inaccurate.

I'll change this to "was in the process of resigning", however, I still definitely think that LKE was in the wrong here, considering they held it for months after this had already been cleared up.

That's an odd usage of the word, since expel does not at all mean what you are attempting to say.

ex·pel /ikˈspel/ verb: deprive (someone) of membership of or involvement in a school or other organization.
It can be hard to admit, but sometimes word don't mean what you think they do. Better luck next time.

Do you have evidence the LKE invaded Japan, The International Kingdom, Christmas, Equestria or Anarchy? To my knowledge, all of those were raided by others, though the LKE may have supported.

This seems to have come from a misunderstanding on my part, which I have realized now that I have done further research on these raids to make sure they were correct, I'll change which clause they're in. Also, I'm curious to know what changed your opinion on a condemnation of LKE so much. You clearly thought differently in the past.

Oh sh#t, here we go again.

LKE feels like a condemnable region but I don't think this makes a good case for it. It's just listing the alliances they had and some wars they fought, without really explaining why this is condemnation material.

Even 2 years ago, when my grudges with LKE were fresh, I would not suppport this, much less now.

I'll do my best to change that then.

As others have commented, I am not convinced LKE warrants a condemnation. The region predominantly keeps to itself and has otherwise simply been a lackey of more objectionable groups/regions and a victim of their former Emperor's shortcomings.

However, if you were looking to continue with this then you might want to look into the invasion of TNI that LKE undertook, and the banning and suppression of natives there prior to password locking the region - bearing in mind this was one of their closest allies. The evidence is still visible on the region today.

The fall out from those events also resulted in their former Emperor torpedo-ing LKE's relations with the Albion - another close ally - because he was unable to take a joke. Probably more humorous than condemnable but it shows that their poor actions and judgment have hurt not only their chosen enemies but those who previously stood alongside them also.

I think that their resume of actions is too large, their history too long, and the magnitude of their actions too great for their to be a case for not condemning them, and I'll try to better convey that, and hopefully change your mind. Also, thanks for the tip, I might throw that in.

I'm going to add a few more clauses to this, respectively about Moldavia, the Lazarus Khanate, and perhaps TNI. Thanks to all for the feedback!

[A Bloodred Moon]

Hard to find anything substantial in between the snark, but I suppose I’ll address it anyway.

I am already an SC author so this falls a bit flat, but thanks for calling my motives into question. As to whether we should be condemning LKE, I think the answer is certainly yes, otherwise I wouldn't have written this. LKE and TNI are not interchangeable, and as such they are just as guilty of those coups, as well as their raiding and ideology. They have each played their unique roles, and they have each earned condemnation.

Yet you are condemning them for the same things, no? They are most certainly not interchangeable, but if we condemn everyone for the same things we'll be here for a while.

I just though that since you indicated you thought there was more LKE had done that was condemnable you might be willing to share it, but it was obviously silly of me to think you would be willing to do anything as helpful as that.

Not doing your research for you is not an uncommon sight. You should know this.

Thank you for the correction. Nonetheless, Europeia hasn't been involved in 2 GCR coups, among other things, so this still doesn't change my mind.

I don't think I need to change your mind, and I'm not attempting to. I am calling out your double standard.

The ideology was used as a justification for raiding in the sense that it allowed imperialists to claim that their raiding was a deserved right and that defending was an act of war since that interfered with their right. It's a creates a combative region in a way regular raiding does not, and to reduce it to using raiding and defending to advance your regional interests is incorrect at best and disingenuous at worst.

"It's complicated. Also, did I tell it's all just semantics?"

I'm not going to continue discussing whether or not TNP and Europeia are condemnable anymore. Yes, raiding is condemnable, no, not every instance of raiding is condemnable.

I have never said either Euro or TNP are condemnable. What I have said is that the majority of the LKE’s actions listed in the proposal are actions also taken by TNP and Europeia, no better, no worse.

Pray tell what it is then, because claiming it's an attack is also clearly bullshit.

Clearly. You're trying to condemn a sovereign region that does not seek a condemnation for pursuing an agressive foreign policy, dismissing their ideology as semantics and telling everyone they’re bad. Do explain to me how that is not to be seen as an attack.

You hardly seems like an unbiased source yourself. Regardless, it was, as I have already said, a war between raiders and defenders, and whatever the impetus was, by LKE's own policy, it would be nearly impossible to be a defending group without starting a war with them, unless you just decided to never defend LKE raids.

And yet the LKE had not, as far as I am aware, declared war on defenders for defending? Could you (for once) actually prove what you say?

Remind me again why imperialists aren't raiders?

And admirable attempt to dodge the argument, but you yourself just described to me how complicated the ideological motives of the LKE were and how they could not simply be explained as raiding or defending in their regional interests.

I'll change this to "was in the process of resigning", however, I still definitely think that LKE was in the wrong here, considering they held it for months after this had already been cleared up.

I am fairly certain Slavia's allies' response was to invade a region perceived to be under LKE protection, so I would not be shocked by the fact that the LKE retaliated.

ex·pel /ikˈspel/ verb: deprive (someone) of membership of or involvement in a school or other organization.
It can be hard to admit, but sometimes word don't mean what you think they do. Better luck next time.

Do you... read your own quotes? The FRA was not deprived of membership in an organisation... unless you're saying the FRA was in Osiris?

Also, I'm curious to know what changed your opinion on a condemnation of LKE so much. You clearly thought differently in the past.

Bit of an odd attempt to change the subject there. I indeed thought differently in the past.

[Makdon]

Yet you are condemning them for the same things, no? They are most certainly not interchangeable, but if we condemn everyone for the same things we'll be here for a while.

Not all of LKE's achievements are interchangeable with TNI's. Some of them are, and I'm still going to include them, but not all are, and such LKE deserves separate recognition.

Clearly. You're trying to condemn a sovereign region that does not seek a condemnation for pursuing an agressive foreign policy, dismissing their ideology as semantics and telling everyone they’re bad. Do explain to me how that is not to be seen as an attack.

Once again, I really think calling imperialism "aggressive foreign policy" is pretty bullshit, but regardless, all this proposal says is that LKE's actions have been IC bad enough to deserve a SC condemnation. I don't see that as "telling everyone they're bad". Really, a condemnation tells everyone that you're good at doing IC bad things, which hardly seems bad to me.

And yet the LKE had not, as far as I am aware, declared war on defenders for defending? Could you (for once) actually prove what you say?

They declared war on the FRA for attempting to defend a region, as I'm pretty sure we've already established. The region wasn't actually in need of defense, but the FRA apologized for doing it, and it was, lets be very clear here, an attempt to defend.

And admirable attempt to dodge the argument, but you yourself just described to me how complicated the ideological motives of the LKE were and how they could not simply be explained as raiding or defending in their regional interests.

I don't believe that's what I said. My explanation was that will it could be boiled down to raiding, but that LKE acted as though any attempt to interfere with that raiding was an act of all out war, and LKE acted very serious about such wars. This made relations between raiders and defenders especially toxic, since LKE now had reason for such claims to moral superiority. Imperialism doesn't change the what your raiding is, it changes how you act about it.

Do you... read your own quotes? The FRA was not deprived of membership in an organisation... unless you're saying the FRA was in Osiris?

Involvement doesn't equal membership, but I'll change it from expel because it seems you're not going to let this go.

Bit of an odd attempt to change the subject there. I indeed thought differently in the past.

That isn't meant to be some sort of weird attempt to shift the discussion away from your critiques, I'm actually curious why your opinion has changed so much.

[Drop Your Pants]

Disgusted by LKE’s association and military involvement with multiple brutal raiding regions, such as DEN, the Black Riders,

Going to be funny if this passes, LKE working with 2 cheater regions. Onder is going to have to write multiple paragrpahs

[Makdon]

New draft posted, which includes new clauses on Moldavia and the khanate, provides more detail on some of LKE's major raids, and combines two clauses about imperialism into one. Thanks to all for their feedback

[WayNeacTia]

When will people learn to stop poking the bear? Now we are all going to have to bear through an Onderwall because of this.

[Drop Your Pants]

Free Thought, which was occupied twice, the second time for a stunning 85 days, and was only freed threw a Security Council liberation,

Where did the SC throw it?

over 1000 regional message board posts were suppressed, undoubtedly striking a great blow against the regions culture and history,

Oh no someone's suppressed the RMB. Oh wait I can unsupress it. But our culture and history will never be the same, we're forever affected by something all taggers used to do. Give me a break.

Marxist Leninist Party, a raid in which the the LKE triumphed over the Defender Security Alliance, a victory which LKE has celebrated for years and has commemorated with other invasions,

When you don't have much to celebrate you celebrate your occasional win a lot I suppose.

Xedas, where LKE managed to rally the impressive force of 63 nations and repel multiple liberation attempts, a showing of LKE’s continued military activity and strength,

Were they all LKE or a joint op?

Reproaching LKE’s membership in and involvement with the United Imperial Armed Forces (UIAF), an imperialist military organization that perpetrated numerous acts of war against defenders innocent regions and which contained the condemned region of The New Inquisition (TNI), and that as a member of this organization LKE was involved in many unjust raids,

UIAF couldn't do much against defenders, only go after regions.

Shocked by LKE’s military support for the Lazarus Khanate, a dictatorial regime that couped and occupied the region for an extended period of time and ejected many esteemed natives,

Ha I love it.

No mention of Balder though?

[Makdon]

Where did the SC throw it?

Fixed

Oh no someone's suppressed the RMB. Oh wait I can unsupress it. But our culture and history will never be the same, we're forever affected by something all taggers used to do. Give me a break.

I wasn't aware this was such common practice. Was it regular for taggers to suppress 51 pages of posts? Regardless, I'll tone it down.

Were they all LKE or a joint op?

It was a joint up, LKE was the point and organized it, however.

UIAF couldn't do much against defenders, only go after regions.

Very well.

No mention of Balder though?

I'm approaching the character limit and don't see Balder as something worth including. I don't know a ton about Balder's history, but it seems odd to me to mention it in a condemnation of LKE

[WayNeacTia]

No mention of Balder though?

I'm approaching the character limit and don't see Balder as something worth including. I don't know a ton about Balder's history, but it seems odd to me to mention it in a condemnation of LKE

Then you have done next to zero research. Balder is nothing more than a colony of LKE, via NES.

[Makdon]

Then you have done next to zero research. Balder is nothing more than a colony of LKE, via NES.

Thank you for that helpful accusation. I certainly agree that Balder is a stagnant imperialist puppet, but it seems to me that LKE is among the least responsible out of the imperialist regions of the past.

[Makdon]

Since no one seems to have anything more to say, and I feel this is up to my standards of writing quality, I'm going to submit this after Thursday minor, unless anything major comes up.

[Tinhampton]

Xedas, where LKE managed to rally the impressive force of 63 nations [...]

What, all of them were from LKE, or does this figure include supporters from other raider groupings?

[Makdon]

Xedas, where LKE managed to rally the impressive force of 63 nations [...]

What, all of them were from LKE, or does this figure include supporters from other raider groupings?

As I previously stated, this was a joint op, however LKE organized it and pointed.