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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:14 am
by Electrum
I recommend the following things (feel free to act on none or all of the recommendations, up to you :P)

  • getting rid of "also known as FuF" if it's not going to be used in the resolution.

  • writing 'birthright citizenship' instead of just 'citizenship' for that last dot point in the issues authored clause

  • "Creating a regional newspaper known as the Forest News Leaf, the first of its kind in the region which featured news from many of the nations residing therein." - the underlined section seems like a tautology - what other kinds of newspaper are there that don't feature news from many of the nations within it? To me it seems obvious that a regional newspaper features news from nations within its region. Maybe elaborate more as to why it's special. Also, does/did Forest have other newspapers? If no, then it's not really first of its kind.

  • Suggested rewording: "Creating the annual Forest Photo Contest in 2015, a contest which has since run every year annually ever since, thenfeaturing pictures from many nations throughout the realms."

  • I think some elaboration is warranted as to the other regional events FuF hosted, a list would be fine

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:19 am
by Kuriko
Sedgistan wrote:Your question is essentially "how is it illegal to say something that it's not legal to say?". You can't do it legally. Yes, it means FuF can't be credited for the issues added since she was a member of the team. That's a fundamental principle of the rules - Commendations/Condemnations are not the appropriate place to recognise work done by site staff.

You can avoid this to an extent by removing mention of "12" and using an adjective such as "numerous" instead. 12 is numerous. So is 24.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I get what you're saying, but I don't see what part of that clause is illegal. Can you please point out the illegal part?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:29 am
by Sedgistan
"Acknowledging that the full extent of Frieden-und Freudenland's efforts is debated by experts, and that while the nation is credited with raising no fewer than 12 issues of significance with the international community, many estimates put this number much higher;"

The underlined bits are the problem, particularly the last bit.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:22 am
by Kuriko
Sedgistan wrote:"Acknowledging that the full extent of Frieden-und Freudenland's efforts is debated by experts, and that while the nation is credited with raising no fewer than 12 issues of significance with the international community, many estimates put this number much higher;"

The underlined bits are the problem, particularly the last bit.

Alright, thanks Sedge :). I'll see what I can do with Candensia.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:46 am
by Kuriko
We removed the acknowledging clause and re-wrote the lauding clause. Will that work?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:49 am
by Honeydewistania
Kuriko wrote:We removed the acknowledging clause and re-wrote the lauding clause. Will that work?

Is 12 issues the number of issues that can be legally mentioned?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:52 am
by Candensia
Honeydewistania wrote:
Kuriko wrote:We removed the acknowledging clause and re-wrote the lauding clause. Will that work?

Is 12 issues the number of issues that can be legally mentioned?


Yes. Of FuF's 24 issues, 12 were written before she became an editor.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:55 am
by Honeydewistania
Candensia wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:Is 12 issues the number of issues that can be legally mentioned?


Yes. Of FuF's 24 issues, 12 were written before she became an editor.

Ah.

Well I see no glaring problems with the draft now, so that's good.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:12 am
by Kuriko
Electrum wrote:I recommend the following things (feel free to act on none or all of the recommendations, up to you :P)

  • getting rid of "also known as FuF" if it's not going to be used in the resolution.

  • writing 'birthright citizenship' instead of just 'citizenship' for that last dot point in the issues authored clause

  • "Creating a regional newspaper known as the Forest News Leaf, the first of its kind in the region which featured news from many of the nations residing therein." - the underlined section seems like a tautology - what other kinds of newspaper are there that don't feature news from many of the nations within it? To me it seems obvious that a regional newspaper features news from nations within its region. Maybe elaborate more as to why it's special. Also, does/did Forest have other newspapers? If no, then it's not really first of its kind.

  • Suggested rewording: "Creating the annual Forest Photo Contest in 2015, a contest which has since run every year annually ever since, thenfeaturing pictures from many nations throughout the realms."

  • I think some elaboration is warranted as to the other regional events FuF hosted, a list would be fine

First and second bullet points are done, third I'm working on, fourth is done, and fifth I'm working on. Thanks Electrum :).

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:15 am
by Bhang Bhang Duc
Some comments below.

Kuriko wrote:
The Security Council,

Recognizing that throughout the known universes there are individuals, organizations, and nations that dedicate their precious time to disseminate information to national leaders;

Believing Frieden-und Freudenland to be a shining example of such a nation with a record of invaluable service that, at present, stretches back approximately 5 years;

Okay, that's fine. One minor change to the text suggested.

Kuriko wrote:Lauding numerous efforts by Frieden-und Freudenland, which total no fewer than 12, to bring attention to issues of national significance, including but not limited to:

  • Political campaigns of foreign leaders accused of rights abuses, as presented in Is There An Election In Marche Noir Or Are You Just Happy To See Us?
  • Workers compensation policy relating to overtime wages, as presented in Sit-Down Money
  • The legality of child actors in advertisements and movies, as presented in Never Work With Children
  • Internet privacy as it relates to minors, as presented in Paparazzi Parents, and
  • Birthright citizenship policy, as presented in Baby Shower

Maybe build a bit more detail into these bullet points or potentially quote a couple more.

Kuriko wrote:Highlighting the fact that Frieden-und Freudenland has also contributed to the region of Forest in multiple ways, including:

  • Creating a regional newspaper known as the Forest News Leaf, the first of its kind in the region which featured news from many of the nations residing therein.
  • Creating the annual Forest Photo Contest in 2015, a contest which has run every year since then featuring pictures from many nations throughout the realms.
  • Holding Government positions within the region, such as Minister of Culture between 2016 and 2017, where in that capacity they ran the annual Forest Photo Contest as well as other regional events.

Many nations have held regional government positions and have created local newspapers. I don't see any of this as being Commendable.

Kuriko wrote:Concluding that the nation of Frieden-und Freudenland should be recognized by the World Assembly Security Council for these reasons;

Hereby commends Frieden-und Freudenland.

Co-authored by Candensia


The first part of the proposal is fairly strong and, I think, should be expanded on a little. The reason for that is that the second part, the work done in Forest, is much weaker and detracts from the Commendation as a whole.

In its current form I would not support this if it got to the vote.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:16 am
by Jakker
Kuriko wrote:We removed the acknowledging clause and re-wrote the lauding clause. Will that work?


That looks to work legality wise now.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:24 am
by Sedgistan
Jakker wrote:
Kuriko wrote:We removed the acknowledging clause and re-wrote the lauding clause. Will that work?


That looks to work legality wise now.

Agreed.

I haven't checked the issues names to see if they're from before her time as an Editor, as I assume I don't need to.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:35 am
by Kuriko
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Some comments below.

Kuriko wrote:
The Security Council,

Recognizing that throughout the known universes there are individuals, organizations, and nations that dedicate their precious time to disseminate information to national leaders;

Believing Frieden-und Freudenland to be a shining example of such a nation with a record of invaluable service that, at present, stretches back approximately 5 years;

Okay, that's fine. One minor change to the text suggested.

Kuriko wrote:Lauding numerous efforts by Frieden-und Freudenland, which total no fewer than 12, to bring attention to issues of national significance, including but not limited to:

  • Political campaigns of foreign leaders accused of rights abuses, as presented in Is There An Election In Marche Noir Or Are You Just Happy To See Us?
  • Workers compensation policy relating to overtime wages, as presented in Sit-Down Money
  • The legality of child actors in advertisements and movies, as presented in Never Work With Children
  • Internet privacy as it relates to minors, as presented in Paparazzi Parents, and
  • Birthright citizenship policy, as presented in Baby Shower

Maybe build a bit more detail into these bullet points or potentially quote a couple more.

Kuriko wrote:Highlighting the fact that Frieden-und Freudenland has also contributed to the region of Forest in multiple ways, including:

  • Creating a regional newspaper known as the Forest News Leaf, the first of its kind in the region which featured news from many of the nations residing therein.
  • Creating the annual Forest Photo Contest in 2015, a contest which has run every year since then featuring pictures from many nations throughout the realms.
  • Holding Government positions within the region, such as Minister of Culture between 2016 and 2017, where in that capacity they ran the annual Forest Photo Contest as well as other regional events.

Many nations have held regional government positions and have created local newspapers. I don't see any of this as being Commendable.

Kuriko wrote:Concluding that the nation of Frieden-und Freudenland should be recognized by the World Assembly Security Council for these reasons;

Hereby commends Frieden-und Freudenland.

Co-authored by Candensia


The first part of the proposal is fairly strong and, I think, should be expanded on a little. The reason for that is that the second part, the work done in Forest, is much weaker and detracts from the Commendation as a whole.

In its current form I would not support this if it got to the vote.

That's fair, I'm working on the Forest stuff and I'll talk to Can about the issues stuff. I just have to wait for access to Forest's discord :/

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:37 am
by Candensia
Sedgistan wrote:
Jakker wrote:
That looks to work legality wise now.

Agreed.

I haven't checked the issues names to see if they're from before her time as an Editor, as I assume I don't need to.


I can assure you none of the named issues are illegal to mention. However, upon further inspection, I may have understated the number of legal issues by 2. #1002 and #1023 were reported May 23, 2018, and July 5, 2018 respectively, before she became an editor on July 24, 2018. All named issues have #s below 1023, so I can reasonably assume they were published before that date.

This would mean that 14 issues are legal to mention.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:06 am
by Sedgistan
They were - so yes, it's definitely 14.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:36 pm
by Bormiar
I've never agreed with the ruling that issues written while an IE are illegal per Rule 4. What makes an issue written by an IE fundamentally different from that of an issues author?

Power -- Probably not. I've been told that IEs need to have their issues approved by other IEs, and only some can put it in the game. It would be corrupt if the IE title loosened the necessary quality of issues.

Responsibility (it's their job) -- Some IEs simply don't write issues. How is issues writing more of a responsibility to them than the responsibility of a self-proclaimed issues author? Do IEs sit down and calculate every issue they write based on information they have as IEs? Surely some of those issues are written as a player would: purely for fun.

I understand that rule 1 was created so that we don't glorify people for work we don't quite understand. But every other job disallowed by Rule 1 involves the player having social weight (e.g. roleplay mentors), power (e.g. moderators deleting players, GenSec ruling, Northrop's dark theme, IEs editing), or inside knowledge (e.g. moderators, admins, IEs testing, players who have tested new features on the test site). True, "actions taken as part of their role" does not necessarily make this distinction, but moderators have attested to the incompleteness and lack of eloquence within the current ruleset. My distinction simply makes sense. If they don't have any advantage above what a player can obtain, there's no reason we can't treat their accomplishments as if they were made by a player.

The only exception to this is if IEs wrote all their issues in order to balance or correct a skew they've found using their inside data. Other issues written simply because the IEs thought the site needed them (similar to GA#1 and GA#2) would have to fall under Rule 1, too. Here's a likely example. I suspect that this is occasionally the case. However, many IEs (such as FuF) seem to write issues simply because they are an issues author and enjoy it. To logically ban recognizing those issues, you would have to deem any issues author an unrecognized member of site staff. Would it be so bad if we just asked FuF which issues he wrote as a player?

Tldr; Some issues are written as a player even if written by IEs. We should be able to find out which ones those are.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:38 pm
by SherpDaWerp
Bormiar wrote:social weight (e.g. roleplay mentors), power (e.g. moderators deleting players, GenSec ruling, Northrop's dark theme, IEs editing), or inside knowledge (e.g. moderators, admins, IEs testing, players who have tested new features on the test site)


The problem with IEs writing issues is that they have that inside knowledge. I linked USS Monitor explaining this earlier.

Even if an editor wrote an issue "for fun" and not to fill a need that they knew about through their inside knowledge, they still have more control over and access to the process.
USS Monitor wrote:If an editor's issue gets deleted, they have the ability to see that it was deleted and react to that -- and possibly try to salvage the issue, depending on the situation -- whereas a regular player wouldn't know when it got deleted.

Even if it's not a self-edit, you just have a lot more access to the process.

Furthermore, Fris's post is clear about the intention of the rule:

Frisbeeteria wrote:It's not enough to have oversight. We could quite easily violate that integrity with players none the wiser, oversight nonwithstanding. Site staff must also have the public appearance of integrity. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" carries more weight when it's not possible for the guardians of the site to privately abuse their privileges, due to self-imposed rules.

The consensus Moderation ruling above reflects that principle, as originally laid down by the site owner, Max Barry. If you want the privileges of membership in Site Staff, you must also accept the limitations.


I challenge you to find an editor that was elevated prior to writing a commendable quantity of issues, and doesn't give any feedback (see Commend Trotterdam - giving GI feedback can be part of a Commend). Every Editor is commendable without going into their issues written while part of Staff, so why bother? There's zero use-case for commending Editorial actions, because if you want to commend an editor, you can commend their prior body of work without too much trouble.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:48 pm
by The Marsupial Illuminati
SherpDaWerp wrote:I challenge you to find an editor that was elevated prior to writing a commendable quantity of issues, and doesn't give any feedback.

Me.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:04 pm
by Fauxia
Tinhampton wrote:I hate to pull a Proposal Vivisection on a draft written by the most prolific author in SC history

No you don’t :p

Anyway, at least to me this pretty much looks up to your usual standard, Kuri (hope you don’t disagree enough that you find it insulting :p )

As long as you fix the issue count, of course.

Edit: And if it isn’t, blame Can.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:16 pm
by SherpDaWerp
The Marsupial Illuminati wrote:
SherpDaWerp wrote:I challenge you to find an editor that was elevated prior to writing a commendable quantity of issues, and doesn't give any feedback.

Me.

Gah, ok then, you got me there. But do you want a Commend, are you worthy of a Commend, and/or are people drafting you a Commend? With all due respect, personally the lack of significant interaction with the community (at least in my short memory of GI) would limit your commend-ability anyway.

My point is it's either a stretch to commend someone or it's not, and editor-written issues don't tend to make make that difference between "easy commend" and "hard commend". Even with a few more issues, you would probably still be "hard commend" due to the lack of interaction.

EDIT: We should probably get back to talking about the proposal anyway, rather than interpretations of R1

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:51 am
by Kuriko
I've put up a third draft with a few minor tweaks, mainly expanding on the newspaper and Forest Photo Contest and getting rid of the culture office part. Not sure if there's anything off here, there may be a disconnect from the former version due to Google doc. Can and I will discuss adding more issues to the proposal too.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:02 am
by Kuriko
I talked to FuF and she said she can't think of anything else to be added, so I think this is pretty much ready unless anyone has more suggestions. I've made a tweak to the Forest Photo Contest part and we added one more issue.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:35 am
by Tinhampton
My one last red line: Please be consistent with punctuation. "The Security Council" is followed by a comma; your RECOGNISING, BELIEVING and CONCLUDING clauses end with semicolons; the two bullet points in the HIGHLIGHTING clause end with full stops; every bullet point in the LAUDING clause ends with no punctuation at all, except for one which ends with a comma. (I am not complaining about the full stop at the end, lol)

Minor quibble: "Approximately 5 years" is more like five years on the dot. That's all from my end - it's a bit verbose but I'll take it! :>

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:01 am
by Kuriko
Tinhampton wrote:My one last red line: Please be consistent with punctuation. "The Security Council" is followed by a comma; your RECOGNISING, BELIEVING and CONCLUDING clauses end with semicolons; the two bullet points in the HIGHLIGHTING clause end with full stops; every bullet point in the LAUDING clause ends with no punctuation at all, except for one which ends with a comma. (I am not complaining about the full stop at the end, lol)

Minor quibble: "Approximately 5 years" is more like five years on the dot. That's all from my end - it's a bit verbose but I'll take it! :>

I'll make some small adjustments.

Edit: Made the adjustments. What it is is two different writing styles being put together.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:19 am
by Kuriko
I plan on submitting this today at some point.