[DEFEATED] Commend Christian Democrats

[The Church of Satan]

Those are referring to policies on your nation page. Have any of them signed a document like this or even played a role in starting up one: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1402826

Oh no! He put his name in a dispatch! The World Assembly is just gonna crumble now. >_>

(yes, NS Mods the snark was necessary however I don't intend any ill-will in it. I'm just illustrating a point.)

A dispatch saying he's not going to comply is even less impactful than a nation's policies because guess what, most nations are "non-compliant" in their policies.

SC Resolution #310 - Crushing Our Enemies: Protests are illegal, homosexuality is illegal, religious worship is illegal and also has slavery.

SC Resolution #302 - Saint Mark: Abortion is illegal.

SC Resolution #303 - Destructive Government Economic System: No freedom of the press.

SC Resolution #300 - Kuriko : Our WA Secretary General doesn't allow BIRTH CONTROL.

Look at all that non-compliance. Just flies right in the face of everything the WA stands for, right? And yet they are commended by the World Assembly.

[Outer Sparta]

Those are referring to policies on your nation page. Have any of them signed a document like this or even played a role in starting up one: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1402826

Oh no! He put his name in a dispatch! The World Assembly is just gonna crumble now. >_>

(yes, NS Mods the snark was necessary however I don't intend any ill-will in it. I'm just illustrating a point.)

A dispatch saying he's not going to comply is even less impactful than a nation's policies because guess what, most nations are "non-compliant" in their policies.

SC Resolution #310 - Crushing Our Enemies: Protests are illegal, homosexuality is illegal, religious worship is illegal and also has slavery.

SC Resolution #302 - Saint Mark: Abortion is illegal.

SC Resolution #303 - Destructive Government Economic System: No freedom of the press.

SC Resolution #300 - Kuriko : Our WA Secretary General doesn't allow BIRTH CONTROL.

Look at all that non-compliance. Just flies right in the face of everything the WA stands for, right? And yet they are commended by the World Assembly.

Then why hasn't that been brought up with every other WA commendations? Would you want to repeal IA's commendation because of some noncompliant things?

[The Church of Satan]

Then why hasn't that been brought up with every other WA commendations? Would you want to repeal IA's commendation because of some noncompliant things?

Because the other commended players didn't have any controversial stuff going on at the time of their commendations. Plus they were commended for what is on their commendations and nothing more. The difference here is that CD is being criticized for things unrelated to the resolution at vote. Things that have no bearing on his contributions to NationStates or the impact they have had.

[Aclion]

Then why hasn't that been brought up with every other WA commendations? Would you want to repeal IA's commendation because of some noncompliant things?

Because the noncompliance argument isn't the real reason this resolution is being opposed, it's because of the players religion.

[Outer Sparta]

Then why hasn't that been brought up with every other WA commendations? Would you want to repeal IA's commendation because of some noncompliant things?

Because the noncompliance argument isn't the real reason this resolution is being opposed, it's because of the players religion.

I don't think anyone really cares about CD's religion. They probably care more about their views against LGBTs and stuff.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Sure they have done a lot for the NS community, but they don't deserve a commendation right now due to their noncompliance of the recent WA resolution.

Vilita and Turori, commended by the World Assembly and this very community (SC Resolution #309) has slavery. And this is just a thirty second search of the most recent commended players. You'll find many commended players whose nations are heinously "non-compliant." So this non-compliance argument is complete bs. >_>

I agree with you CoS. The non-compliance argument is bs. The reason this and similar proposals to honour UM or Aurelia fail is because they seem to have made a career of pissing people off.

It’s as simple as that. Whether it’s shenanigans in the GA or being a WA cheat or conspiring with undesirables to overthrow the government of a GCR they seem to have done enough over the years to make passing a C&C for any of them impossible.

[Aclion]

Because the noncompliance argument isn't the real reason this resolution is being opposed, it's because of the players religion.

I don't think anyone really cares about CD's religion. They probably care more about their views against LGBTs and stuff.

Which is what colors their views on religion. That's just a trueism.

[Bananaistan]

Anyone that's been around long enough knows that GA resolutions have a negligible and barely noticeable impact on nations. The impact they do have however is unavoidable for any and all WA members.

That's neither here nor there. Your claim was "he can't be in the World Assembly and be non-compliant with its laws at the same time". The policies indicate that this is untrue.

[Wallenburg]

Orly?

Anyone that's been around long enough knows that GA resolutions have a negligible and barely noticeable impact on nations. The impact they do have however is unavoidable for any and all WA members.

Anyone who's been around long enough knows that magical compliance has been gone a long time. We have 3 standing resolutions that wouldn't make any sense if magical compliance were a thing.

Everyone, please stop saying that CD shouldn’t be commended because they are conservative. This is stupid and similar to conservatives repealing Commend Kuriko because she is socialist. CD has done many great things to the NationStates community, we can’t let that slide.

Nobody made this argument.

Those are referring to policies on your nation page. Have any of them signed a document like this or even played a role in starting up one: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1402826

signing documents bears even less mechanical weight then the policies page.

The contingent of the GA community that cares about gameside "mechanics" more than roleplay is small and irrelevant.

Then why hasn't that been brought up with every other WA commendations? Would you want to repeal IA's commendation because of some noncompliant things?

Because the noncompliance argument isn't the real reason this resolution is being opposed, it's because of the players religion.

Repeating the same lie doesn't make it true.

[Attempted Socialism]

Then why hasn't that been brought up with every other WA commendations? Would you want to repeal IA's commendation because of some noncompliant things?

Because the noncompliance argument isn't the real reason this resolution is being opposed, it's because of the players religion.

Do you have any evidence to back this up? Do you know the religious beliefs of all other commended and condemned players, showing that the Catholics are systematically voted down? Do you have the logs of whole regions and many influential players discussing how and why to vote down Catholics? Do you have access to mind-reading capabilities, since you are so certain of the apparent motives of thousands, despite them never stating it as a motive and often denying it when accused?

I suspect you know you don't have evidence.

[Wallenburg]

Those are referring to policies on your nation page. Have any of them signed a document like this or even played a role in starting up one: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1402826

Oh no! He put his name in a dispatch! The World Assembly is just gonna crumble now. >_>

(yes, NS Mods the snark was necessary however I don't intend any ill-will in it. I'm just illustrating a point.)

A dispatch saying he's not going to comply is even less impactful than a nation's policies because guess what, most nations are "non-compliant" in their policies.

SC Resolution #310 - Crushing Our Enemies: Protests are illegal, homosexuality is illegal, religious worship is illegal and also has slavery.

SC Resolution #302 - Saint Mark: Abortion is illegal.

SC Resolution #303 - Destructive Government Economic System: No freedom of the press.

SC Resolution #300 - Kuriko : Our WA Secretary General doesn't allow BIRTH CONTROL.

Look at all that non-compliance. Just flies right in the face of everything the WA stands for, right? And yet they are commended by the World Assembly.

Policies are known to be inaccurate not only to roleplay, but to how people answer issues. My policies page says I've abolished prisons and banned nuclear weapons. That's not how I RP, and I haven't ever answered issues to that effect.

[Morover]

On my phone, so this may be brief/poorly formatted.

I agree with Wallenburg, here. Magical compliance has not been the consensus for a long time - pretty much since I’ve been around. The GA is also primarily a roleplaying institution, so game side stats are irrelevant there.

I also maintain my opinion that noncompliance doesn’t actually matter unless you roleplay within the General Assembly - joining the World Assembly has obvious benefits game side that might not directly correlate with how you wish to roleplay. Some people are in the World Assembly game side but don’t roleplay as a member of the Assembly, or even as if it exists. These people should still be able to be condemned/commended.

What is an issue is that CD obviously role plays as a member of the General Assembly. As such, they should be expected to follow its laws. While my initial opposition to this proposal was largely based on CD’s OOC comments, noncompliance makes it so opposition does not inherently need to be done OOCly, and brings into question the validity of these achievements from an IC perspective. At this point, there’s an issue with CD from both perspectives, so an argument for is instantly less convincing for me.

To reiterate: noncompliance is a big deal for CD but less so for other possible candidates of commendation because a large part of CD’s accomplishments are from within the General Assembly, whereas others are typically not.

[Auralia]

Had a Catholic with the record of CD, sans the non-compliance and LGBT opinions, been at vote, this would pass. Ditto for UM.

This is like saying "I'm not anti-Jewish, I just think male circumcision should be banned" or "I'm not anti-Muslim, I just think halal food preparation practices should be banned".

Catholic teaching on sexuality is inseparable from and integral to Catholicism proper. If you oppose Catholic teaching on sexuality, you oppose Catholicism. If you oppose CD's commendation on that basis, you are opposing CD's commendation because of his Catholicism.

I'd much rather people be honest and say "yes, I'm anti-Catholic" then play semantic games.

[The Church of Satan]

That's neither here nor there. Your claim was "he can't be in the World Assembly and be non-compliant with its laws at the same time". The policies indicate that this is untrue.

In the strictest functional sense, all WA members are compliant with the WA's laws. As for the roleplay aspect, I suppose then that anyone could join the WA and literally be non-compliant with all its laws just by writing that they are in a dispatch? The dispatch matters but their policies do not? It seems all too convenient don't ya think? Almost as if this divide were being made purposely only to justify opposition to this specific resolution.

[Wallenburg]

Had a Catholic with the record of CD, sans the non-compliance and LGBT opinions, been at vote, this would pass. Ditto for UM.

This is like saying "I'm not anti-Jewish, I just think male circumcision should be banned" or "I'm not anti-Muslim, I just think halal food preparation practices should be banned".

Catholic teaching on sexuality is inseparable from and integral to Catholicism proper. If you oppose Catholic teaching on sexuality, you oppose Catholicism. If you oppose CD's commendation on that basis, you are opposing CD's commendation because of his Catholicism.

I'd much rather people be honest and say "yes, I'm anti-Catholic" then play semantic games.

No, Auralia, opposition to your bigotry isn't religious intolerance. Take some responsibility for your beliefs and actions instead of hiding behind religion.

[The New California Republic]

Because the noncompliance argument isn't the real reason this resolution is being opposed, it's because of the players religion.

And again you have no evidence of this, so we can dismiss the accusation as shite.

[Morover]

Had a Catholic with the record of CD, sans the non-compliance and LGBT opinions, been at vote, this would pass. Ditto for UM.

This is like saying "I'm not anti-Jewish, I just think male circumcision should be banned" or "I'm not anti-Muslim, I just think halal food preparation practices should be banned".

Catholic teaching on sexuality is inseparable from and integral to Catholicism proper. If you oppose Catholic teaching on sexuality, you oppose Catholicism. If you oppose CD's commendation on that basis, you are opposing CD's commendation because of his Catholicism.

I'd much rather people be honest and say "yes, I'm anti-Catholic" then play semantic games.

Not that I really agree with you any way, but you’re ignoring the drastic difference between holding a belief for yourself and shaming others for not holding that same belief/committing different actions than you do.

[The Church of Satan]

No, Auralia, opposition to your bigotry isn't religious intolerance. Take some responsibility for your beliefs and actions instead of hiding behind religion.

Auralia is actually right in this regard. Catholicism is inherently prejudiced towards the LGBT community. It's in their teachings and the Catholic Church simply cannot say it any louder than they already do. It's religious doctrine for any practicing Catholic.

[Outer Sparta]

Oh no! He put his name in a dispatch! The World Assembly is just gonna crumble now. >_>

(yes, NS Mods the snark was necessary however I don't intend any ill-will in it. I'm just illustrating a point.)

A dispatch saying he's not going to comply is even less impactful than a nation's policies because guess what, most nations are "non-compliant" in their policies.

SC Resolution #310 - Crushing Our Enemies: Protests are illegal, homosexuality is illegal, religious worship is illegal and also has slavery.

SC Resolution #302 - Saint Mark: Abortion is illegal.

SC Resolution #303 - Destructive Government Economic System: No freedom of the press.

SC Resolution #300 - Kuriko : Our WA Secretary General doesn't allow BIRTH CONTROL.

Look at all that non-compliance. Just flies right in the face of everything the WA stands for, right? And yet they are commended by the World Assembly.

Policies are known to be inaccurate not only to roleplay, but to how people answer issues. My policies page says I've abolished prisons and banned nuclear weapons. That's not how I RP, and I haven't ever answered issues to that effect.

Then again, why would we point out gameside policies when really it was never raised very much before?

[Attempted Socialism]

Had a Catholic with the record of CD, sans the non-compliance and LGBT opinions, been at vote, this would pass. Ditto for UM.

This is like saying "I'm not anti-Jewish, I just think male circumcision should be banned" or "I'm not anti-Muslim, I just think halal food preparation practices should be banned".

Catholic teaching on sexuality is inseparable from and integral to Catholicism proper. If you oppose Catholic teaching on sexuality, you oppose Catholicism. If you oppose CD's commendation on that basis, you are opposing CD's commendation because of his Catholicism.

I'd much rather people be honest and say "yes, I'm anti-Catholic" then play semantic games.

I appreciate how dishonest you have to be to cut the quote there, exactly. There was a preceding paragraph that may interest you, if the thing about bearing false witness is something you try to take serious.

Furthermore, it is not "anti-Catholicism" to oppose sexism, homophobia, transphobia and the degradation of women's rights. You can do that without ever hearing about religion. If you try to shield yourself behind a religion that mandates sexism, homophobia, transphobia and the degradation of women's rights, be prepared to be called out if you try to act from behind that flimsy shield. This martyr complex is frankly pathetic; you're not the victim of intolerance or repression.

[Bananaistan]

That's neither here nor there. Your claim was "he can't be in the World Assembly and be non-compliant with its laws at the same time". The policies indicate that this is untrue.

In the strictest functional sense, all WA members are compliant with the WA's laws. As for the roleplay aspect, I suppose then that anyone could join the WA and literally be non-compliant with all its laws just by writing that they are in a dispatch? The dispatch matters but their policies do not? It seems all too convenient don't ya think? Almost as if this divide were being made purposely only to justify opposition to this specific resolution.

In the strictest functional sense they are not. A small statistical change does not impact 1) the nation's policies, 2) the nation's issues, or 3) the player's RP.

[Stellar Colonies]

Had a Catholic with the record of CD, sans the non-compliance and LGBT opinions, been at vote, this would pass. Ditto for UM.

This is like saying "I'm not anti-Jewish, I just think male circumcision should be banned" or "I'm not anti-Muslim, I just think halal food preparation practices should be banned".

Catholic teaching on sexuality is inseparable from and integral to Catholicism proper. If you oppose Catholic teaching on sexuality, you oppose Catholicism. If you oppose CD's commendation on that basis, you are opposing CD's commendation because of his Catholicism.

I'd much rather people be honest and say "yes, I'm anti-Catholic" then play semantic games.

Someone can certainly be in favor of banning infant circumcision and not be at all anti-Semitic.

[The Church of Satan]

Furthermore, it is not "anti-Catholicism" to oppose sexism, homophobia, transphobia and the degradation of women's rights. You can do that without ever hearing about religion. If you try to shield yourself behind a religion that mandates sexism, homophobia, transphobia and the degradation of women's rights, be prepared to be called out if you try to act from behind that flimsy shield. This martyr complex is frankly pathetic; you're not the victim of intolerance or repression.

I mean, not directly and not purposely. The fact that the two coincide here however can't not happen. CD is catholic and his views align with it accordingly. I'm not saying he's a victim of religious persecution. It's a political issue that just happens to coincide with his religious beliefs.

In the strictest functional sense they are not. A small statistical change does not impact 1) the nation's policies, 2) the nation's issues, or 3) the player's RP.

Under the right circumstances it could impact the first two. Don't get me wrong it'd be like finding a piece of a needle in a warehouse of hay stacks but it's possible nonetheless. As for the player's RP, sure not on its own but a player could choose to let it. After all, literally anything can happen in RP.

[Bananaistan]

In the strictest functional sense they are not. A small statistical change does not impact 1) the nation's policies, 2) the nation's issues, or 3) the player's RP.

Under the right circumstances it could impact the first two. Don't get me wrong it'd be like finding a piece of a needle in a warehouse of hay stacks but it's possible nonetheless. As for the player's RP, sure not on its own but a player could choose to let it. After all, literally anything can happen in RP.

Resolutions do not impact policies nor do they impact the choices available for answers to issues. Ergo the point about the policies. The GA has resolutions saying that abortion must be legal. Many WA members have policy saying it is illegal because they answered certain issues that way. Therefore, going back to your original point which I took exception to, it is entirely possible to be in the WA and be non-compliant with its laws at the same time. Your automatic compliance argument is simply incorrect. There is no such thing as automatic compliance.

That leads to the point about RP. Because there's no automatic compliance and there's no direct link between resolutions and issues, we don't really care what someone's policies are. But the GA community does care about prominent GAers saying they don't comply with resolutions. This is Godmoding. And is a legitimate criticism when so many arguments in this proposal rely on CD's contribution to the GA.

[Attempted Socialism]

Furthermore, it is not "anti-Catholicism" to oppose sexism, homophobia, transphobia and the degradation of women's rights. You can do that without ever hearing about religion. If you try to shield yourself behind a religion that mandates sexism, homophobia, transphobia and the degradation of women's rights, be prepared to be called out if you try to act from behind that flimsy shield. This martyr complex is frankly pathetic; you're not the victim of intolerance or repression.

I mean, not directly and not purposely. The fact that the two coincide here however can't not happen. CD is catholic and his views align with it accordingly. I'm not saying he's a victim of religious persecution. It's a political issue that just happens to coincide with his religious beliefs.

Sure, but unless Aclion can show that all Catholics (Regardless of their personal beliefs and how they express them) have their commendations voted down, I think that's a moot point. You could easily imagine a Catholic largely uninvolved or nonplussed by LGBT issues or abortion being commended by the SC, if that player otherwise had a record like CD's or UM's, which was my original claim before Auralia chose to mine me for quotes.