[PASSED] Access to Abortion

[Tarsonis]

Not really.

Yes really, but you do you. This is neither the time nor place to sit around and gripe about RP styles.

1. It doesn't have to be a freaking Rembrandt, it just has to work.

Which it doesn't. Mayhap in your own headcanon it works, but in practical terms it's just as much wanking as you claim me being able to cackle at the idea of boarders trying to capture a Godulan vessel.

Physical boundaries aren't wanking. It's not even like I'm pulling this out of my ass, the isolation here is an established canon. Being extremely remote isn't against any RP rules Ive ever seen on this thread and I've been here just about as long as you have. the fact that all you have to counter is a glorified "nu uh" tells me all I need to know.

[Godular]

Yes really, but you do you. This is neither the time nor place to sit around and gripe about RP styles.



Which it doesn't. Mayhap in your own headcanon it works, but in practical terms it's just as much wanking as you claim me being able to cackle at the idea of boarders trying to capture a Godulan vessel.

Physical boundaries aren't wanking. It's not even like I'm pulling this out of my ass, the isolation here is an established canon. Being extremely remote isn't against any RP rules Ive ever seen on this thread and I've been here just about as long as you have. the fact that all you have to counter is a glorified "nu uh" tells me all I need to know.

That's rather literally all I've been hearing from you for the majority of your participation in this thread. You never even thought to ask me why I consider the idea of a Godulan vessel being captured to be laughable. You just doubled down further. You're not being particularly creative, you're mostly just being indignant and trying to throw out excuse after excuse after excuse. I'm just telling you: there's no point in trying so hard.

[Tarsonis]

Physical boundaries aren't wanking. It's not even like I'm pulling this out of my ass, the isolation here is an established canon. Being extremely remote isn't against any RP rules Ive ever seen on this thread and I've been here just about as long as you have. the fact that all you have to counter is a glorified "nu uh" tells me all I need to know.

That's rather literally all I've been hearing from you for the majority of your participation in this thread. You never even thought to ask me why I consider the idea of a Godulan vessel being captured to be laughable.

You RP as a tier 12 society. It's not hard to make the connection.

You just doubled down further.

Because we you were being snide, and you've done nothing but insult me these entire interaction. don't turn around play victim.

You're not being particularly creative, you're mostly just being indignant and trying to throw out excuse after excuse after excuse.

No I'm becoming frustrated which happens when i think people are being deliberately obtuse. And I've not thrown around one excuse (not even sure what it is I'm supposed to be excusing), I've had to re-explain my position over and over again

I'm just telling you: there's no point in trying so hard.

True. Doesn't matter how succinct i make my argument, y'all will reject it simply because you want to, not on the merits.

[Godular]

That's rather literally all I've been hearing from you for the majority of your participation in this thread. You never even thought to ask me why I consider the idea of a Godulan vessel being captured to be laughable.

You RP as a tier 12 society. It's not hard to make the connection.

You’re still assuming.

You just doubled down further.

Because we you were being snide, and you've done nothing but insult me these entire interaction. don't turn around play victim.

Bullshit. You entered this thread just to be contrarian. You don’t get to play the victim card either.

You're not being particularly creative, you're mostly just being indignant and trying to throw out excuse after excuse after excuse.

No I'm becoming frustrated which happens when i think people are being deliberately obtuse. And I've not thrown around one excuse (not even sure what it is I'm supposed to be excusing), I've had to re-explain my position over and over again

I'm just telling you: there's no point in trying so hard.

True. Doesn't matter how succinct i make my argument, y'all will reject it simply because you want to, not on the merits.

What merits, eh? You literally popped in on this thread with an unnecessary comment and it went downhill from there. What were you expecting to get out of this?

[Kardashev III Civilization]

The obelisk smashes through the wall nearest the ambassador from Tarsonis. Those looking through the jagged hole in the wall notice a series of several additional holes leading all the way to the main voting chamber. A laser lines up with the Tarsonian's forehead. The forefront of the Tarsonian's mind fills with a soothing, timeless voice as the obelisk transmits its message.

"The Fortysecond Iteration, having received notice of flagrant noncompliance by the Theocracy of Tarsonis, in addition to its generally archaic administrative and political practices, has decided to supplement the World Assembly's compliance mechanisms with our own police action. Vessels CL-267 and CL-949 will lead an enforcement operation into Tarsonis space, along with support craft and approximately 20,000 medical personnel trained to provide abortion and contraceptive services. The Tarsonis government may anticipate this operation's arrival in approximately two years."

The laser shuts off. Turning away, the obelisk lifts out of the room and floats back through the holes to the voting chamber.

[Tarsonis]

You RP as a tier 12 society. It's not hard to make the connection.

You’re still assuming.

You've not given me any reason to think otherwise

Because we you were being snide, and you've done nothing but insult me these entire interaction. don't turn around play victim.

Bullshit. You entered this thread just to be contrarian. You don’t get to play the victim card either.

Firstly I've been on this thread before, I just came back to it.
Secondly, so what if I'm being contrarian, thats not an excuse to be rude and condescending. It's a political RP thread, which leads to:
Thirdly, it's my right as an opposition voice to, you know, oppose said declaration, and make my position known.
Fourthly: I joined an already ongoing discussion about the state of the WA game play and creative noncompliance.

What merits, eh? You literally popped in on this thread with an unnecessary comment and it went downhill from there. What were you expecting to get out of this?

I wanted to join an ongoing discussion about the state the WA which led to a conversation about creative noncompliance and how it works, and then when I gave an example everyone rushed to tell me I'm wrong. So I defended my points and the continual response is not to find a flaw or miscalculation in my scenario but simply to brow beat me with "no you can't do that." And I get frustrated when I continually have to repeat myself in rising levels of detail.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Can we request a modlock already? The vote's over. Move on.

[Tarsonis]

The obelisk smashes through the wall nearest the ambassador from Tarsonis. Those looking through the jagged hole in the wall notice a series of several additional holes leading all the way to the main voting chamber. A laser lines up with the Tarsonian's forehead. The forefront of the Tarsonian's mind fills with a soothing, timeless voice as the obelisk transmits its message.

"The Fortysecond Iteration, having received notice of flagrant noncompliance by the Theocracy of Tarsonis, in addition to its generally archaic administrative and political practices, has decided to supplement the World Assembly's compliance mechanisms with our own police action. Vessels CL-267 and CL-949 will lead an enforcement operation into Tarsonis space, along with support craft and approximately 20,000 medical personnel trained to provide abortion and contraceptive services. The Tarsonis government may anticipate this operation's arrival in approximately two years."

The laser shuts off. Turning away, the obelisk lifts out of the room and floats back through the holes to the voting chamber.

OOC: Do not rp my characters, especially when they don't exist.

[Kardashev III Civilization]

The obelisk smashes through the wall nearest the ambassador from Tarsonis. Those looking through the jagged hole in the wall notice a series of several additional holes leading all the way to the main voting chamber. A laser lines up with the Tarsonian's forehead. The forefront of the Tarsonian's mind fills with a soothing, timeless voice as the obelisk transmits its message.

"The Fortysecond Iteration, having received notice of flagrant noncompliance by the Theocracy of Tarsonis, in addition to its generally archaic administrative and political practices, has decided to supplement the World Assembly's compliance mechanisms with our own police action. Vessels CL-267 and CL-949 will lead an enforcement operation into Tarsonis space, along with support craft and approximately 20,000 medical personnel trained to provide abortion and contraceptive services. The Tarsonis government may anticipate this operation's arrival in approximately two years."

The laser shuts off. Turning away, the obelisk lifts out of the room and floats back through the holes to the voting chamber.

OOC: Do not rp my characters, especially when they don't exist.

1) You've made both IC and OOC comments here, so yeah, they very clearly do exist.
2) Having a conversation with your ambassador is not "RPing your character." It'll be pretty clear if I do that.

[Tarsonis]

OOC: Do not rp my characters, especially when they don't exist.

1) You've made both IC and OOC comments here, so yeah, they very clearly do exist.
2) Having a conversation with your ambassador is not "RPing your character." It'll be pretty clear if I do that.

OOC: Actually they've all been OOC, I've just been lazy to mark it. Admittedly my fault for the confusion there. But as it stands I have no ambassador to the WA.

And sorry for snapping. Been taking it from all fronts, yours just seemed to pile on.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

Funding. Members must pay for or provide directly abortions, abortifacients, and contraceptives to any recipient bona fide within their jurisdiction upon request. Members must also provide a means to access such services and commodities speedily and free at the point of service or provision.

OOC: All wank aside, this provision is not subject to difficulties based on distance from the rest of the World Assembly. The stuff about clinic construction and land donation is designed to address concerns about states like yours claiming inability to provide these services based on bullshit like Mississippi or Texas pull, where it's not technically illegal to get an abortion, but the simple lack of facilities over a huge geographic area makes it really, really difficult for most people to do so. If you assert inability to access your country and unwillingness to "donate" land (btw donations can be mandatory per previous precedent, but that's not important here), your government is still obliged to provide abortions etc. "speedily."

TL;dr the "loophole" you think you see here really isn't one.

[Praeceps]

Ah yes, the ever-so-clever RP wank of literally every person in your nation adhering to the state ideology.

Cultural homogeny is a thing. Not every society is the cultural melting pot like the west. Deal with it.

Ah yes, because Eastern cultures clearly are homogenous with no one ever being divergent.

[Union of Sovereign States and Republics]

Cultural homogeny is a thing. Not every society is the cultural melting pot like the west. Deal with it.

Ah yes, because Eastern cultures clearly are homogenous with no one ever being divergent.

OOC: SINICIZATION INTENSIFIES

[Tarsonis]

Cultural homogeny is a thing. Not every society is the cultural melting pot like the west. Deal with it.

Ah yes, because Eastern cultures clearly are homogenous with no one ever being divergent.

OOC: Never said they were.

[Godular]

You’re still assuming.

You've not given me any reason to think otherwise

And you’re not trying. You came in talking about how enforcement of these resolutions is impossible with your nation, and your claims were refuted repeatedly. All I aimed for was getting you to simply respond that you would use military force to prevent enforcement given all the measures that could be employed, and that objective was achieved.

Bullshit. You entered this thread just to be contrarian. You don’t get to play the victim card either.

Firstly I've been on this thread before, I just came back to it.
Secondly, so what if I'm being contrarian, thats not an excuse to be rude and condescending. It's a political RP thread, which leads to:
Thirdly, it's my right as an opposition voice to, you know, oppose said declaration, and make my position known.
Fourthly: I joined an already ongoing discussion about the state of the WA game play and creative noncompliance.

What merits, eh? You literally popped in on this thread with an unnecessary comment and it went downhill from there. What were you expecting to get out of this?

I wanted to join an ongoing discussion about the state the WA which led to a conversation about creative noncompliance and how it works, and then when I gave an example everyone rushed to tell me I'm wrong. So I defended my points and the continual response is not to find a flaw or miscalculation in my scenario but simply to brow beat me with "no you can't do that." And I get frustrated when I continually have to repeat myself in rising levels of detail.

And when I brought up the concept of hospital ships (with the armed bit being a joke, but eh), you did exactly that thing you accused everyone else of: ‘No you can’t do that’. Your entire schpiel about creative noncompliance was exactly that, over and over. Your arguments are wankery, moreso than anything I’ve done so far (which just goes to show that wankery can happen at any tech level, really).

Honestly, you’re just making things worse for yourself by even trying to argue this business in the first place.

*fixed your quote formatting, by the way. It took me a while to figure out what was what.*

[WayNeacTia]

Can you guys take this shit back to general where it belongs?

[Picairn]

Somebody lock this thread please. Tarsonis and Godular can set up a thread for themselves in General.

[Yebloin]

Opposed.

[Picairn]

Opposed.

You are late for the vote by several days.

[Sethtekia]

(Image)
Access to Abortion
Category: Health | Area of Effect: Healthcare

---

Whereas some rabidly anti-choice nations lack medical professionals willing to perform abortions, meaning the ability to access them is non-existent without funds needed for foreign travel, denying constructively abortion rights because of income and birth location:

And whereas discrimination in state policy or administration of tax on abortion recipients and providers is unfair and grossly unjust:

And whereas people have natural rights to property in their own person:

Be it enacted by this august World Assembly as follows:

1. Definitions. In this resolution,
   
   1. abortion means a medical procedure to terminate a pregnancy deliberately,
      
   2. discrimination in tax, in relation to medical procedures, includes placing a burden in excess of that placed on other procedures of similar risk,
      
   3. IAO means Independent Adjudicative Office,
      
   4. recipient bona fide means a natural person demonstrating a bona fide desire for a commodity or service,
      
   5. resolution means General Assembly resolution,
      
   6. member means member nation, and
      
   7. tax includes solidarity contributions and other compulsory payments made to the state.
2. Funding. Members must pay for or provide directly abortions, abortifacients, and contraceptives to any recipient bona fide within their jurisdiction upon request. Members must also provide a means to access such services and commodities speedily and free at the point of service or provision.
   
   
3. Non-discrimination. No members may:
   
   1. conduct discrimination in tax against a recipient or provider of abortion services or contraceptives in tax collection, assessment, or administration,
      
   2. discriminate against abortion clinics workers on account of occupation or place of employment,
      
   3. prosecute any person for receiving or providing section 7 compliant abortions, contraceptives, truthful medical advice, or education thereon,
      
   4. prohibit or levy discriminatory tariffs or tax against section 7 compliant contraceptives or abortifacients,
      
   5. fail to provide equal protection before the law to recipients or providers of abortion services, or
      
   6. implement policies intended to restrict access to section 7 regulated goods or services.
4. Clinics. WA Choice Plus is established and may construct, per section 5, clinics with funds assessed by the General Accounting Office from members in which there does not exist, in the view of the WACC, adequate access to abortion. Such clinics shall offer free and safe abortions to any recipient bona fide. All members must, however, contribute separately to WA Choice Plus in proportion to expenses incurred within their jurisdiction at such clinics for their upkeep and maintenance.
   
   
   1. Members must arrange fully subsidised travel for any recipient bona fide, and one person of their choice, to receive care offered by such a clinic if abortion services are not speedily accessible. No limitation, except to prohibit travel to nations in which there is an on-going armed conflict, may be enforced by a member on a person's ability to exit a member for purposes of travelling to a clinic unless permitted by resolution.
      
      
   2. Clinics shall provide free healthcare and counselling for expectant parents as well as free contraceptives and abortifacients to any address serviceable by post within a member.
5. Clinic lease terms. Any member may request the construction of section 4 clinics if they can show to the WACC that construction would expand access to abortion in an area where it is inadequate. The clinics will be built on land donated by members where the member doing so grants to the clinic a ten-year renewable lease in which no (a) direct tax or (b) indirect tax in excess of one per cent may be collected, along with the condition, reinforced by private contract, that upon disestablishment of the clinic, the assignee or seizer must remit to WA Choice Plus the fair market value of the improvements to that land.
   
   
6. Exceptions. Notwithstanding any other provision of this resolution and unless otherwise indicated by previous resolution, a member may restrict access to or section 2 funding for an abortion if that member can show that a sex-selective basis clearly impels its request.
   
   
7. Health and safety. The World Health Authority (WHA) must issue regulations to ensure abortions, abortifacients, and contraceptives available to the general public are safe and effective for end-users and those with which they may be in close contact. Such regulations overrule those made by members unless it can be shown to the IAO that those WHA regulations are insufficient in fulfilling the mandates of this section.
   
   
8. Interpretation. Members shall ascribe personhood to begin at birth. In this resolution, older resolutions overrule conflicting provisions of this resolution, singular words include the plural unless otherwise indicated, and section and list headings have no effect.

Sethtekia will not follow this law; anyone whom seeks abortion within the borders of our great nation and its territories shall be executed upon the birth of the child.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Sethtekia will not follow this law; anyone whom seeks abortion within the borders of our great nation and its territories shall be executed upon the birth of the child.

To the representative of Slaver Entity Sethtekia:
Ok Slaver

[Praeceps]

Ah yes, because Eastern cultures clearly are homogenous with no one ever being divergent.

OOC: Never said they were.

In that case, why specify western?

[Tinfect]

In that case, why specify western?

OOC:
Presumably it has something to do with the reactionary obsession with the idea that western countries are 'losing their culture' (becoming slightly less racist,) due to 'foreign invasion' (immigration/refugees from countries they're bombing,).

[Tarsonis]

Whole post is OOC:

Funding. Members must pay for or provide directly abortions, abortifacients, and contraceptives to any recipient bona fide within their jurisdiction upon request. Members must also provide a means to access such services and commodities speedily and free at the point of service or provision.

OOC: All wank aside,

Oh cut the bullshit. It's not wanking, I didn't just pull this out of my ass as a way of saying "fuck you IA, you can't tell me what to do." And I'm not trying to be antagonistic here.
This is 15 years of established IC history of my nation.

(some of this was established in RP's, other was retconned as I went.)

When I started in 2005 my nation was a standard secular interstellar empire spanning dozens of systems in the outer belt of the milky way. Good times.

In 2007 I got bored and left. I was gone for two years, and then in 2009 I was bored and thought I'd take another crack at NS. Instead of just bringing back my nation like nothing had happened, I created an IC reason for my disappearance, The Tarsonian Empire had been almost completely wiped out by fanatically religious nomadic people called the Orari that destroy everyone their "gods" command them to. (Think like Necromongers from Riddick). During the war after a major battle which shattered the defense grid and broke the country's back, the people scattered. Most were run down and eliminated, but one fleet admiral a devoutly Catholic, received a vision of a safe haven. A nebula that even the Otari wouldn't be able to find them in. Believing these visions were from God he led what was left of his fleet into the nebula and for 5 years they hid, using the element gasses of the nebula to keep their ships operating. After 5 years they were discovered by other survivors, and decided to leave the Nebula and head to an abandoned research base that had escaped the purges. That became their new home world, and other survivors trickled in. All had a leader who had received visions and those leaders were all Catholic. An empire of trillions had been reduced to a few million, who believed they had been saved by God. The Nation quickly became a Catholic Theocracy governed by their new Messianic Queen.

I was inspired by the Conquest of Canaan for this plot line. By returning and claiming some of the territory they had lost, the Otari also returned to finish the job, now aware of survivors, kicking of the Second Otari War. Discovering the "gods" were just noncorporeal aliens that had enslaved the Otari, they joined forces with one of the Otari Tribes that had also discovered the truth, and together destroyed the gods. The remaining Otari assimilated into the Tarsonian peoples, and the Kingdom of Tarsonis remained in deep seclusion, only announcing their revival to a few choice allies.

This is why the nation is so deeply and pretty much unanimously Catholic, because God saved them from destruction. So they believe anyway.
And this is why the nation is so remote, their entire sector was purged of all life, and they have remained in seclusion ever since. Eventually they drifted so far out (as that research base is based on a rogue planet with no star, and is on course to leave the Galaxy completely in about 100,000 years), that they only kept marginal diplomatic ties through subspace coms. No nation has even seen a Tarsonian ship in about 50 years.

This is my present IC reason why i don't partake in RP's anymore, and been the case for the last 2 years.

I brought this up, not to simply be contrarian (though I do, do that sometime), but to play out this issue. If the WA proclamations are handled ICly, then the established IC histories of nations will have an effect on how cleanly these Acts can be implemented. With such a varied group of nations and peoples, the implementation of said Acts are going to have some hijinks. Case in point, I read the bill here and realized that my nation IC has some issues when it comes to implemantation. The bill requires a nation provide travel expenses for its people if they want abortion procedures, and don't have the facilities to provide it themselves.

this provision is not subject to difficulties based on distance from the rest of the World Assembly.

Of course it is, you can't just ignore the Atlantic ocean when resupplying Roanoke colony, because you don't like that it takes 3 months to cross. If the law requires them to provide travel, fine, but that travel isn't instantaneous. There are logistical considerations that come into play when considering an issue like that. For instance what about a nation that's so remote that said nation can't physically travel to a nearby clinic, because the length of the journey far outstrips the gestation period of human child. By the time they can physically get to a clinic, the child will have already been born.

The stuff about clinic construction and land donation is designed to address concerns about states like yours claiming inability to provide these services based on bullshit like Mississippi or Texas pull, where it's not technically illegal to get an abortion, but the simple lack of facilities over a huge geographic area makes it really, really difficult for most people to do so.

I know. But you're assuming all countries are going to be like Mississippi or Texas where they can provide those services, they just manipulate the law to ensure it doesn't happen. That's not the case I'm presenting here, not completely anyway. (Obviously my nation will try to manipulate the law to avoid compliance if they can, given their characteristics.) Due to cultural conditions there are no doctors within the Tarsonian Citizenry who would perform said services, and the Government cannot legally compel doctors to do so, even if they wanted to. So even if they built the clinics, they'd still be unmanned. Their only option of compliance is to fund travel through civilian charter, but no civilian ship will make it there in time. Hence the conundrum.

If you assert inability to access your country

as I said, the WA doesn't have the authority to violate the sovereign territory of a member. This is an important legal consideration, especially for a nation as reclusive as Tarsonis. Sovereign borders are still a thing.

and unwillingness to "donate" land (btw donations can be mandatory per previous precedent, but that's not important here),

I'm sure there is a precedent from some other unrelated case, but the point was the bill here does not contain any mechanism by which the WA can compel a member to surrender territory. Which means even if they're unable to comply with section 2, they do not have to acquiesce to the provisions of Section 4. Not until an amendment or a related bill is passed that can compel members to donate territory.

your government is still obliged to provide abortions etc.

The government cannot provide what it doesn't have.

"speedily."

And there's another issue if we really want to delve into the minutia here. Speedily is a rather vague term for a law. What constitutes"Speedily" is subject to interpretation, and before you object there are real legal cases that have been subject to the interpretation of similar verbiage.

TL;dr the "loophole" you think you see here really isn't one.

It really is, the Nation does not have the means to adhere to section 2, and cannot be compelled to adhere to section 4. While ICly the nation will hold this up as a loophole, really it's a legal conundrum i noticed and wanted to explore. They can't get out, and they don't have to let you in.

You've not given me any reason to think otherwise

And you’re not trying.

Look, I'm not trying to be divisive here, but what exactly are you try to say? What is it I'm supposed to be trying to do what exactly? You've been nothing but condescending to me, so what am I supposed to think?

You came in talking about how enforcement of these resolutions is impossible with your nation,

Because it is. But everybody got real defensive, real quick when I brought it up. As I said above to SA, I didn't just make this up to screw with people, it's an inherent conflict between the law and the priorly established IC history, that I think creates room for IC creative non-compliance, that I wanted to explore through discussion now that the law is passed. Instead of engaging that discussion, people seem to have their jimmies rustled that I'd even suggest such a thing. I really don't understand why the idea of creative non-compliance is so offensive, it's a game.

and your claims were refuted repeatedly.

No, they weren't. You tried to find solutions to the problem, and when I pointed out how those solutions don't actually work, y'all became indignant and then I became defensive.

All I aimed for was getting you to simply respond that you would use military force to prevent enforcement given all the measures that could be employed, and that objective was achieved.

Yes, you got me to respond that my nation would not abide an invasion, and would defend its sovereign territory. What perplexes me is how you think that constitutes some sort of gotcha. As if any nation here would just lay down to invasion.

Firstly I've been on this thread before, I just came back to it.
Secondly, so what if I'm being contrarian, thats not an excuse to be rude and condescending. It's a political RP thread, which leads to:
Thirdly, it's my right as an opposition voice to, you know, oppose said declaration, and make my position known.
Fourthly: I joined an already ongoing discussion about the state of the WA game play and creative noncompliance.

I wanted to join an ongoing discussion about the state the WA which led to a conversation about creative noncompliance and how it works, and then when I gave an example everyone rushed to tell me I'm wrong. So I defended my points and the continual response is not to find a flaw or miscalculation in my scenario but simply to brow beat me with "no you can't do that." And I get frustrated when I continually have to repeat myself in rising levels of detail.

And when I brought up the concept of hospital ships (with the armed bit being a joke, but eh), you did exactly that thing you accused everyone else of: ‘No you can’t do that’.

Because, that's an invasion, Carl. Your solution was to invade. Hence why I said that would be tantamount to an illegal invasion. That's not a solution, that's escalating the issue to an all out military conflict. And on top of it, as I explained above, your solution would grate ICly with my nations "Character." They're highly reclusive, and aren't going to accept foreign assets operating within their territory. And for the record, my response of pressing your ships into service was also supposed to be tongue in cheek, as it was OOC.

Your entire schpiel about creative noncompliance was exactly that, over and over. Your arguments are wankery, moreso than anything I’ve done so far (which just goes to show that wankery can happen at any tech level, really).

As I stated above, I didn't just make all this up on a whim to screw with people. Eveyrthing, I've said has been prior established over the last 15 years. I'm not gonna retcon all that development just to comply with a WA act.

Honestly, you’re just making things worse for yourself by even trying to argue this business in the first place.

How, exactly? I made people miffed? Not exactly the first time. You say that like there's some sort of consequence here. I haven't violated any rules, and I'm not making any bad faith arguments.

*fixed your quote formatting, by the way. It took me a while to figure out what was what.*

Sorry bout that. I'm pretty good posting from my cell phone, but formatting is easy to screw up on that device.

In that case, why specify western?

Because Wall and I both Westerners and I was pointing out not everything works the way it does here in the west? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

OOC:
Presumably it has something to do with the reactionary obsession with the idea that western countries are 'losing their culture' (becoming slightly less racist,) due to 'foreign invasion' (immigration/refugees from countries they're bombing,).

Swing and a miss. Believe it or not I'm actually quite pro immigration, because they have the delicious food and my stomach does not discriminate.

Can you guys take this shit back to general where it belongs?

While I admit Godular and my little spat here is getting off the rails, the basis of the discussion is over compliance to the bill in question. I'm pretty sure this is the relevant thread for that.