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[PASSED] Access to Abortion

A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.

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Astrobolt
Attaché
 
Posts: 79
Founded: Jul 30, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Astrobolt » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:04 am

Jutsa wrote:"Oh? So this means that anyone can have any abortion they want for almost any reason, regardless of what a majority populace, or government,
believes is right or has a deeply held religious stance against?



"I don't see why the views of other people, or the government is at all relevant with the choice a woman would have to make."

ImperialRussia wrote:I disapprove abortion my nation needs more soldiers and workers in the work force.



"Then accept more immigrants, or provide benefits to families to encourage more births. There is no reason to oppose this resolution on the basis of population."

Minskiev wrote:The predicament with my nation is that of course we allow abortions, and if this was a law to be passed in my nation, of course it would pass. However, this is forcing nations that are strictly against abortions for reasons such as religion, patriarchy, and others to lose some sovereignty in their decision-making. If this was perhaps rewritten, then I’d vote for.


"I fail to see why we should accommodate nations who wish to violate the rights of women based on issues as antiquated as "religion, patriarchy or sovereignty."
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In the WA IC, despite not being in it OOC.
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Godular
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11065
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:05 am

Heavens Reach wrote:
"How else am I to interpret that comment other than you claiming that this resolution makes it impossible for you to prosecute the action of forcing another person into an abortion, or forcibly causing a miscarriage without the pregnant party's consent?"


That is literally not our argument, ambassador. We consistently keep repeating the same thing: it decriminalizes killing the fetus, regardless of the feelings of the one carrying it.


“Which is incorrect, as WE keep repeating.”
RL position
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Active RP: SHENRYAX
Dormant RP: Throne of the Fallen Empire

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
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ImperialRussia
Envoy
 
Posts: 305
Founded: May 16, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby ImperialRussia » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:06 am

There a thing called Maternity Leave
Women receive paid leave from employment for childbirth so there no need for abortion or unless your still promoting murder is still murder and this legislation will consider it legal I’m still against this resolution.
Last edited by ImperialRussia on Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Union of Sovereign States and Republics
Diplomat
 
Posts: 602
Founded: Nov 16, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Union of Sovereign States and Republics » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:08 am

ImperialRussia wrote:There a thing called Maternity Leave
Women receive paid leave from employment for childbirth so there no need for abortion

"No, Ambassador. That is not how abortion works."
Current IC Year: 2027
The Union of Sovereign States and Republics; USSR
In 1991, a plane carrying would-be conspirators of an armed coup crashed in the Crimean Peninsula. Without the coup, the Union of Sovereign States treaty was signed; and the USSR survived... NS states are not canon.
Current Ruling Party: CENTER-LEFT COALITION; SDPSU, CPSU, APSU
News: Soviet Union announces completion of first manned Mars mission; the Red Flag flies over the Red Planet!

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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby La xinga » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:08 am

ImperialRussia wrote:There a thing called Maternity Leave
Women receive paid leave from employment for childbirth so there no need for abortion

Not all nations do that ambassdor.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
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Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13807
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:09 am

ImperialRussia wrote:There a thing called Maternity Leave
Women receive paid leave from employment for childbirth so there no need for abortion

If the fetus is growing on a Fallopian tube maternity leave in 9 months is going to do fuck all for the mother's untreated life expectancy of <20 weeks.

User avatar
Godular
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11065
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:09 am

ImperialRussia wrote:There a thing called Maternity Leave
Women receive paid leave from employment for childbirth so there no need for abortion


“That does not follow. The simple presence of maternity leave does not singlehandedly eliminate the need for abortion services.”
RL position
Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX
Dormant RP: Throne of the Fallen Empire

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby La xinga » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:09 am

Wallenburg wrote:
La xinga wrote:Next, they'll make it mandatory for people to sing and dance by abortions because "it makes mother happy"

Hey, there's an idea.
It's okay, I found ways to get around it without breaking WA law.

I doubt that very much.

Welp I did.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

WAMP WAMP!
#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
Hi, The east pacific!
GLORIOUS AMERICANIUM IMPERIUM!
Creationist, pro-life, straight.
ALL LIVES MATTER!

Nation in TEP. Don't endorse me if I am over 400 endos. Still a long way to go!

User avatar
Jutsa
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5013
Founded: Dec 06, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Jutsa » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:14 am

Astrobolt wrote:
Jutsa wrote:"Oh? So this means that anyone can have any abortion they want for almost any reason, regardless of what a majority populace, or government,
believes is right or has a deeply held religious stance against?


"I don't see why the views of other people, or the government is at all relevant with the choice a woman would have to make."


To an extent, it does, if they're the ones paying for it. But a similar argument could be made that the views of other people, and the government,
aren't relevant with the choice that a person commits murder.
Which, again, we do not equate, but other nations and individuals do, and, as I said, this legislation completely throws all of that out of the window with complete disregard."

Godular wrote:
Heavens Reach wrote:
That is literally not our argument, ambassador. We consistently keep repeating the same thing: it decriminalizes killing the fetus, regardless of the feelings of the one carrying it.


“Which is incorrect, as WE keep repeating.”


"How is this incorrect? Unless, of course, there's legislation protecting someone's property from being damaged, I suppose. But by that logic,
it would therefor make intentional killing of a fetus a less punitive crime.

And I fail to see how classifying them as non-persons does anything but this, Ambassador."
Here is a list containing a bunch of factbooks I created that are Got Issues? related.
>List of issue ideas
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ImperialRussia
Envoy
 
Posts: 305
Founded: May 16, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby ImperialRussia » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:15 am

It’s the child is more important than the mother to take care of.

User avatar
Godular
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11065
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:15 am

La xinga wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Hey, there's an idea.

I doubt that very much.

Welp I did.


“Do please explain this purported loophole that allows you such leeway.”
RL position
Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX
Dormant RP: Throne of the Fallen Empire

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
Post responsibly.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13807
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:16 am

ImperialRussia wrote:It’s the child is more important than the mother to take care of.
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
ImperialRussia wrote:There a thing called Maternity Leave
Women receive paid leave from employment for childbirth so there no need for abortion

If the fetus is growing on a Fallopian tube maternity leave in 9 months is going to do fuck all for the mother's untreated life expectancy of <20 weeks.

I'm waiting for this still.

User avatar
Apollo 19
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 6
Founded: Jun 10, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Apollo 19 Dissent

Postby Apollo 19 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:16 am

This title is misleading, you mention the term phrase “Access”, but you also force member states to put forth our taxpayer funds to the program. Apollo 19 allows abortions, but will not go as far to publicly fund this service or be forced to pay into a Fund.

Until this is rectified, Apollo 19 will vote AGAINST this resolution.

User avatar
Union of Sovereign States and Republics
Diplomat
 
Posts: 602
Founded: Nov 16, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Union of Sovereign States and Republics » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:16 am

ImperialRussia wrote:It’s the child is more important than the mother to take care of.

"And if the fetus is tubular, Ambassador?"
Current IC Year: 2027
The Union of Sovereign States and Republics; USSR
In 1991, a plane carrying would-be conspirators of an armed coup crashed in the Crimean Peninsula. Without the coup, the Union of Sovereign States treaty was signed; and the USSR survived... NS states are not canon.
Current Ruling Party: CENTER-LEFT COALITION; SDPSU, CPSU, APSU
News: Soviet Union announces completion of first manned Mars mission; the Red Flag flies over the Red Planet!

User avatar
La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby La xinga » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:17 am

ImperialRussia wrote:It’s the child is more important than the mother to take care of.

Agreed and disagreed.
Godular wrote:
La xinga wrote:Welp I did.


“Do please explain this purported loophole that allows you such leeway.”

"I would never! That's between me and UM only."
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

WAMP WAMP!
#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
Hi, The east pacific!
GLORIOUS AMERICANIUM IMPERIUM!
Creationist, pro-life, straight.
ALL LIVES MATTER!

Nation in TEP. Don't endorse me if I am over 400 endos. Still a long way to go!

User avatar
Qeth-Nasuwakt
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Jun 17, 2020
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Qeth-Nasuwakt » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:19 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
ImperialRussia wrote:It’s the child is more important than the mother to take care of.
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:If the fetus is growing on a Fallopian tube maternity leave in 9 months is going to do fuck all for the mother's untreated life expectancy of <20 weeks.

I'm waiting for this still.



Then you can wait all the way back to 1265 and try learning anything relevant about the Principle of Double Effect.

Qeth-Nasuwakt will obviously be voting against this ludicrous piece of legislation.

User avatar
Astrobolt
Attaché
 
Posts: 79
Founded: Jul 30, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Astrobolt » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:21 am

"
La xinga wrote:
Godular wrote:
“Do please explain this purported loophole that allows you such leeway.”

I would never! That's between me and UM only."


I'll refer you to this clause from GA #2 "Rights and Duties of WA States"

"Every WA Member State has the duty to carry out in good faith its obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law, including this World Assembly, and it may not invoke provisions in its constitution or its laws as an excuse for failure to perform this duty."
Chief of WA Mission: Mr. Reede Tappe
In the WA IC, despite not being in it OOC.
W.I.P

User avatar
Godular
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11065
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:24 am

Jutsa wrote:
Godular wrote:
“Which is incorrect, as WE keep repeating.”


"How is this incorrect? Unless, of course, there's legislation protecting someone's property from being damaged, I suppose. But by that logic,
it would therefor make intentional killing of a fetus a less punitive crime.


“Intentional termination of a pregnancy without the consent of the one carrying the pregnancy is generally considered assault in the best of cases, as one has to go through the carrier in order to get to the fetus. The whole basis of this argument is that there is an erroneous assertion that this proposal legalizes even unwilling abortions, which it does not.”

And I fail to see how classifying them as non-persons does anything but this, Ambassador."


“The status of the fetus is largely irrelevant to the discussion. We do wonder why it keeps being brought back up.”
RL position
Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX
Dormant RP: Throne of the Fallen Empire

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
Post responsibly.

User avatar
Godular
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11065
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:27 am

Apollo 19 wrote:This title is misleading, you mention the term phrase “Access”, but you also force member states to put forth our taxpayer funds to the program. Apollo 19 allows abortions, but will not go as far to publicly fund this service or be forced to pay into a Fund.

Until this is rectified, Apollo 19 will vote AGAINST this resolution.


“This concern is already addressed elsewhere and by previously passed resolutions.”
RL position
Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX
Dormant RP: Throne of the Fallen Empire

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
Post responsibly.

User avatar
La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby La xinga » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:27 am

Astrobolt wrote:"
La xinga wrote:I would never! That's between me and UM only."


I'll refer you to this clause from GA #2 "Rights and Duties of WA States"

"Every WA Member State has the duty to carry out in good faith its obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law, including this World Assembly, and it may not invoke provisions in its constitution or its laws as an excuse for failure to perform this duty."

Yeah, it's good faith.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

WAMP WAMP!
#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
Hi, The east pacific!
GLORIOUS AMERICANIUM IMPERIUM!
Creationist, pro-life, straight.
ALL LIVES MATTER!

Nation in TEP. Don't endorse me if I am over 400 endos. Still a long way to go!

User avatar
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13807
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:28 am

La xinga wrote:
Astrobolt wrote:"

I'll refer you to this clause from GA #2 "Rights and Duties of WA States"

"Every WA Member State has the duty to carry out in good faith its obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law, including this World Assembly, and it may not invoke provisions in its constitution or its laws as an excuse for failure to perform this duty."

Yeah, it's good faith.

X for doubt.

User avatar
Dubrana
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: Feb 25, 2020
Father Knows Best State

Postby Dubrana » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:32 am

"The issue at hand has been brought to my personal attention. Having read the proposed legislation as the absolute head of political power in the Empire of Dubrana and the patron of the people as a whole I vehemently oppose this legislation on the grounds that in the empire we allow for abortions only in the most dire of circumstances when no other option is available. As such, we the governmental body of the empire provide for both maternity leave as well as providing for the medical costs should a surgery prove necessary for the safety of both mother and child. Excepting of course when there is absolutely no other option than abortion where in the government provides for that as well. Should the mother also not wish to continue to care for the child we have a thoroughly funded public orphanage system where the children will be carefully cared for and raised to the best of their abilities.

With this in mind, I, the emperor and sovereign of Dubrana oppose and will do everything in my nation's power to prevent such legislation to go through. This is a flagrant violation of boundaries between international and national sovereignty that I will not abide by. It is plain to see that this is a strike against even nations such as mine which do not allow for abortions simply because the mother wishes to have one, when even should we provide for and take care of both mother and child we would be forced into such an arrangement." -Emperor Richardson of Dubrana
Last edited by Dubrana on Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Union of Sovereign States and Republics
Diplomat
 
Posts: 602
Founded: Nov 16, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Union of Sovereign States and Republics » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:36 am

La xinga wrote:
Astrobolt wrote:"

I'll refer you to this clause from GA #2 "Rights and Duties of WA States"

"Every WA Member State has the duty to carry out in good faith its obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law, including this World Assembly, and it may not invoke provisions in its constitution or its laws as an excuse for failure to perform this duty."

Yeah, it's good faith.

Finding loopholes is the definition of "bad faith".
Current IC Year: 2027
The Union of Sovereign States and Republics; USSR
In 1991, a plane carrying would-be conspirators of an armed coup crashed in the Crimean Peninsula. Without the coup, the Union of Sovereign States treaty was signed; and the USSR survived... NS states are not canon.
Current Ruling Party: CENTER-LEFT COALITION; SDPSU, CPSU, APSU
News: Soviet Union announces completion of first manned Mars mission; the Red Flag flies over the Red Planet!

User avatar
Godular
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11065
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:38 am

La xinga wrote:
Astrobolt wrote:"

I'll refer you to this clause from GA #2 "Rights and Duties of WA States"

"Every WA Member State has the duty to carry out in good faith its obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law, including this World Assembly, and it may not invoke provisions in its constitution or its laws as an excuse for failure to perform this duty."

Yeah, it's good faith.


“If this alluded loophole is being used to shirk your nation’s responsibilities on the matter, it is by definition not good faith.”

Dubrana wrote:"The issue at hand has been brought to my personal attention. Having read the proposed legislation as the absolute head of political power in the Empire of Dubrana and the patron of the people as a whole I vehemently oppose this legislation on the grounds that in the empire we allow for abortions only in the most dire of circumstances when no other option is available. As such, we the governmental body of the empire provide for both maternity leave as well as providing for the medical costs should a surgery prove necessary for the safety of both mother and child. Excepting of course when there is absolutely no other option than abortion where in the government provides for that as well. Should the mother also not wish to continue to care for the child we have a thoroughly funded public orphanage system where the children will be carefully cared for and raised to the best of their abilities.

With this in mind, I, the emperor and sovereign of Dubrana oppose and will do everything in my nation's power to prevent such legislation to go through. This is a flagrant violation of boundaries between international and national sovereignty that I will not abide by. It is plain to see that this is a strike against even nations such as mine which do not allow for abortions simply because the mother wishes to have one, when even should we provide for and take care of both mother and child we would be forced into such an arrangement." -Emperor Jernigen of Dubrana


“Rejoice, friend! You are already out of compliance with already-passed legislation then! Why grouse about the threat of something that has already come to pass?”
RL position
Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX
Dormant RP: Throne of the Fallen Empire

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
Post responsibly.

User avatar
Prussian-Germany
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 59
Founded: Jun 05, 2020
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Prussian-Germany » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:41 am

I believe that this topic would be best to be left to the independent nations themselves. I see it as a step to far over the rules and lines that the World Assembly has to pass, or even to submit, this resolution.

I believe that I speak for the Kingdom of Alvonia (also known as the region Alvonia that we do not support the overstepping of independent national sovereignty from the World Assembly. There is more important things to discuss; let's work on making the world better and stop interfering with the lives of citizens you do not know or rule.
King of Alvonia
5-Star General & Commander-in-Chief of the Alvonian Imperial Army and VolksFriekorps
Minister of Defense of the Kingdom of Alvonia

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