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[PASSED] Access to Abortion

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Romextly
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Postby Romextly » Wed May 20, 2020 11:50 am

I mean what about the nations who have no abortions. Does that force them to pay the people to leave the country?
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United Dependencies
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Postby United Dependencies » Wed May 20, 2020 11:58 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:"That is my personal analysis and a fair reading, ambassador. I suspect you'd be hard pressed to argue otherwise."

Well Hon. ambassador, I don't disagree with your interpretation. However I do differ with your statement that you would be hard pressed to argue otherwise.

The plain language of section 4b says:
Clinics must provide ... free childcare to any address serviceable by post within a member...

We can see from the text that clinics are required to provide childcare and it is required that it be free. The only limitation stated in the section is that service be provided to someone who lives at an address serviceable by a nation's post office (i.e. within the borders of the nation).

It seems quite possible that such open ended language would require the provision of childcare on a longer, possibly indefinite, basis since the text itself does not provide any such limitation. While I do again reiterate my agreement with the Hon. Ambassador's reading of section 4b, I think there is a concern that higher judicial authorities may interpret the duties of the clinic in the way I just explained.
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United Dependencies
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Postby United Dependencies » Wed May 20, 2020 12:00 pm

Romextly wrote:I mean what about the nations who have no abortions. Does that force them to pay the people to leave the country?

World Assembly Resolution 128 requires WA member nations to provide abortions alreadyedit: prohibits WA member nations from outlawing abortions in certain circumstances.
viewtopic.php?p=4524923#p4524923
Last edited by United Dependencies on Wed May 20, 2020 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?"
-- Abraham Lincoln

Alien Space Bats wrote:2012: The Year We Lost Contact (with Reality).

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Obamacult wrote:Maybe there is an economically sound and rational reason why there are no longer high paying jobs for qualified accountants, assembly line workers, glass blowers, blacksmiths, tanners, etc.

Maybe dragons took their jobs. Maybe unicorns only hid their jobs because unicorns are dicks. Maybe 'jobs' is only an illusion created by a drug addled infant pachyderm. Fuck dude, if we're in 'maybe' land, don't hold back.

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Separatist Peoples
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Founded: Feb 17, 2011
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed May 20, 2020 1:07 pm

United Dependencies wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"That is my personal analysis and a fair reading, ambassador. I suspect you'd be hard pressed to argue otherwise."

Well Hon. ambassador, I don't disagree with your interpretation. However I do differ with your statement that you would be hard pressed to argue otherwise.

The plain language of section 4b says:
Clinics must provide ... free childcare to any address serviceable by post within a member...

We can see from the text that clinics are required to provide childcare and it is required that it be free. The only limitation stated in the section is that service be provided to someone who lives at an address serviceable by a nation's post office (i.e. within the borders of the nation).

It seems quite possible that such open ended language would require the provision of childcare on a longer, possibly indefinite, basis since the text itself does not provide any such limitation. While I do again reiterate my agreement with the Hon. Ambassador's reading of section 4b, I think there is a concern that higher judicial authorities may interpret the duties of the clinic in the way I just explained.

"I agree that some authorities may do so. But I do not think a differing interpretation would be in bad faith. Thus, ambassador, I think you may so interpret, but are not nececcarily obligated to do so."

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed May 20, 2020 5:32 pm

Status: Quorum Reached: In Queue

Congrats.
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Ardiveds
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Postby Ardiveds » Wed May 20, 2020 6:28 pm

OOC: Been reading the whole thread for last couple days. Truely the gift that keeps on giving. :rofl: And since this is in queue...
IC: "Abortion has been legal in Ardiveds long before any resolution regarding it existed. Abortion after foetal viability remains controversial even in our nation but our issue with this resolution is that we simply do not see it as being important enough to warrant making it free for everyone. It's already affordable enough that the vast majority of our citizens can access it without much trouble and this will probably warrant a tax increase, which I'm sure our citizens don't want. We stand Opposed."
--- Kaiser
Last edited by Ardiveds on Wed May 20, 2020 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed May 20, 2020 9:27 pm

Ardiveds wrote:OOC: Been reading the whole thread for last couple days. Truely the gift that keeps on giving. :rofl: And since this is in queue...
IC: "Abortion has been legal in Ardiveds long before any resolution regarding it existed. Abortion after foetal viability remains controversial even in our nation but our issue with this resolution is that we simply do not see it as being important enough to warrant making it free for everyone. It's already affordable enough that the vast majority of our citizens can access it without much trouble and this will probably warrant a tax increase, which I'm sure our citizens don't want. We stand Opposed."
--- Kaiser

"The funding mechanism for this draws revenue as an inverse function to the availability of abortion services in member states. If abortion truly is easily accessible in your nation, you will not see much impact."
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Ardiveds
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Postby Ardiveds » Wed May 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Ardiveds wrote:...

"The funding mechanism for this draws revenue as an inverse function to the availability of abortion services in member states. If abortion truly is easily accessible in your nation, you will not see much impact."

"Ambassador, would you please elaborate on what you said?"

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Slaughter None
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Founded: Apr 30, 2020
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Postby Slaughter None » Wed May 20, 2020 9:50 pm

OOC:Abortion was already legal but now the nations also have to pay for it??. This Proposal is only a way to spite and make fun of the Pro Life people in the forum, Completely and utterly opposed.
Last edited by Slaughter None on Thu May 21, 2020 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Thu May 21, 2020 4:11 am

Ardiveds wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:"The funding mechanism for this draws revenue as an inverse function to the availability of abortion services in member states. If abortion truly is easily accessible in your nation, you will not see much impact."

"Ambassador, would you please elaborate on what you said?"

“If I may clarify for the ambassador, the proposal requires member nations to provide abortion services to individuals. If there are already numerous ways to acquire an abortion and such ways are easily accessible, then the member state will have already provided such services. It is only in the eventuality that abortions are not easily accessible that member states will be forced to fund alternatives.”
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Logon
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Postby Logon » Thu May 21, 2020 12:56 pm

Slaughter none wrote:OOC:Abortion was already legal but now the nations also have to pay for it??. This Proposal is only a way to spite and make fun of the Pro Life people in the forum, Completely and utterly opposed.


They openly admitted this is just to spite the pro-life crowd.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1375523

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Ardiveds
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ardiveds » Thu May 21, 2020 12:59 pm

Kenmoria wrote:
Ardiveds wrote:"Ambassador, would you please elaborate on what you said?"

“If I may clarify for the ambassador, the proposal requires member nations to provide abortion services to individuals. If there are already numerous ways to acquire an abortion and such ways are easily accessible, then the member state will have already provided such services. It is only in the eventuality that abortions are not easily accessible that member states will be forced to fund alternatives.”

"While abortion in Ardiveds is indeed quite accessible and affordable, the relatively little expenditure that one must currently make does help to keep the need for government subsidies at a minimum. Making it free will still incur costs, no matter how little, that the government can only cover through additional taxes. Now if it was for something like free treatment of fatal illnesses, we'd be all over it, but its not."

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Attempted Socialism
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Postby Attempted Socialism » Thu May 21, 2020 1:18 pm

Logon wrote:
Slaughter none wrote:OOC:Abortion was already legal but now the nations also have to pay for it??. This Proposal is only a way to spite and make fun of the Pro Life people in the forum, Completely and utterly opposed.


They openly admitted this is just to spite the pro-life crowd.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1375523

"You are making connections that do not exist. Instead, is has consistently been the anti-choice delegations who has submitted repeals to spite the pro-choice nations."


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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Thu May 21, 2020 1:32 pm

Attempted Socialism wrote:
Logon wrote:
They openly admitted this is just to spite the pro-life crowd.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1375523

"You are making connections that do not exist. Instead, is has consistently been the anti-choice delegations who has submitted repeals to spite the pro-choice nations."

"The pro-life delegates aren't the ones bragging about stuffing this idea in the other people's faces. Can you a case when the pro-lifers were spiteful?
All I can see is the anti-life kid killing SOBs forcing pro-life nations out"
-Abdullah Al-Afghani (random convict sentenced to serve as WA ambassador due to some content being too graphic for toddlers)
OOC: not in this case,
In this case it's to spite the pro-lifers
Last edited by Champagne Socialist Sharifistan on Thu May 21, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Logon
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Postby Logon » Thu May 21, 2020 1:45 pm

Attempted Socialism wrote:
Logon wrote:
They openly admitted this is just to spite the pro-life crowd.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1375523

"You are making connections that do not exist. Instead, is has consistently been the anti-choice delegations who has submitted repeals to spite the pro-choice nations."


"You really are going to look at a resolution taken word for word from an ONION article, with screenshots of them saying "oh it's so fun to piss of the Christianity Brigade" and then try and tell me this is NOT an attempt to spite us?"

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Separatist Peoples
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Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu May 21, 2020 1:46 pm

Logon wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:"You are making connections that do not exist. Instead, is has consistently been the anti-choice delegations who has submitted repeals to spite the pro-choice nations."


"You really are going to look at a resolution taken word for word from an ONION article, with screenshots of them saying "oh it's so fun to piss of the Christianity Brigade" and then try and tell me this is NOT an attempt to spite us?"

Ooc: yep. It's easy to find connection when you're making them up. UM did us the favor of showing plenty of context: shitposting and joking. A year before MG's repeal attempt.

Such spite. Much motive. Wow.

Further, IA isnt even in that.
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Thu May 21, 2020 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Logon
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Founded: Dec 02, 2019
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Postby Logon » Thu May 21, 2020 1:49 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Logon wrote:
"You really are going to look at a resolution taken word for word from an ONION article, with screenshots of them saying "oh it's so fun to piss of the Christianity Brigade" and then try and tell me this is NOT an attempt to spite us?"

Ooc: yep. It's easy to find connection when you're making them up. UM did us the favor of showing plenty of context: shitposting and joking. A year before MG's repeal attempt.

Such spite. Much motive. Wow.

Further, IA isnt even in that.


OOC: Yeah that argument MIGHT hold up if it weren't for the fact that the entire resolution is lifted from a satirical website.

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Thu May 21, 2020 1:50 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Logon wrote:
"You really are going to look at a resolution taken word for word from an ONION article, with screenshots of them saying "oh it's so fun to piss of the Christianity Brigade" and then try and tell me this is NOT an attempt to spite us?"

Ooc: yep. It's easy to find connection when you're making them up. UM did us the favor of showing plenty of context: shitposting and joking. A year before MG's repeal attempt.

Such spite. Much motive. Wow.

OOC: That this resolution was fundamentally borne out of insensitive joking about a painful real-world situation is true. In fact, this same concept -- the very one IA used as a serious resolution until he realised it wouldn't gather support -- was first laid forth in the joke thread, giving credit to The Onion. And you in particular are on record as telling MG that this was "punishment." So yes, it is spite. Worse still, spite borne out of insensitivity.

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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Thu May 21, 2020 1:53 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Logon wrote:
"You really are going to look at a resolution taken word for word from an ONION article, with screenshots of them saying "oh it's so fun to piss of the Christianity Brigade" and then try and tell me this is NOT an attempt to spite us?"

Ooc: yep. It's easy to find connection when you're making them up. UM did us the favor of showing plenty of context: shitposting and joking. A year before MG's repeal attempt.

Such spite. Much motive. Wow.

Further, IA isnt even in that.

OOC:
Why was it taken word for word from an Onion article then?

Also why not force classist states to fund life-saving stuff for the poor,
transphobic States to fund gender re-assignment etc.?
I feel there is a sinister obsession with abortion.
Explainable by hatred for people who have a slighty different definition of when life starts or possibly some kind of perversion.
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Everything else is subject to change
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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Founded: Dec 08, 2019
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Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Thu May 21, 2020 1:55 pm

OOC:
And about embargoes: large empires (which might depend mostly on internal trade) and slaver-states (whose commerce is already non-compliant and highly lucrative) would be able to cope.
A semi-satirical nation which does not fully represent my views.
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Separatist Peoples
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Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu May 21, 2020 1:56 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:Ooc: yep. It's easy to find connection when you're making them up. UM did us the favor of showing plenty of context: shitposting and joking. A year before MG's repeal attempt.

Such spite. Much motive. Wow.

OOC: That this resolution was fundamentally borne out of insensitive joking about a painful real-world situation is true. In fact, this same concept -- the very one IA used as a serious resolution until he realised it wouldn't gather support -- was first laid forth in the joke thread, giving credit to The Onion. And you in particular are on record as telling MG that this was "punishment." So yes, it is spite. Worse still, spite borne out of insensitivity.


Ooc: I'm not the author. My support is totally born of spite. IA's motives are not mine. I'm not terribly concerned with the insensitivity of disagreeing with you, all things considered.

Logon wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:Ooc: yep. It's easy to find connection when you're making them up. UM did us the favor of showing plenty of context: shitposting and joking. A year before MG's repeal attempt.

Such spite. Much motive. Wow.

Further, IA isnt even in that.


OOC: Yeah that argument MIGHT hold up if it weren't for the fact that the entire resolution is lifted from a satirical website.


Ooc: except it isnt. You'd be hard pressed to take the submitted draft and find useful comparisons.

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:Ooc: yep. It's easy to find connection when you're making them up. UM did us the favor of showing plenty of context: shitposting and joking. A year before MG's repeal attempt.

Such spite. Much motive. Wow.

Further, IA isnt even in that.

OOC:
Why was it taken word for word from an Onion article then?

Also why not force classist states to fund life-saving stuff for the poor,
transphobic States to fund gender re-assignment etc.?
I feel there is a sinister obsession with abortion.
Explainable by hatred for people who have a slighty different definition of when life starts or possibly some kind of perversion.


Ooc: because states are already obligated to provide transgender-related healthcare and a minimum standard of living. This is a tired excuse born of ignorance that categorically fails to cow me.

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:OOC:
And about embargoes: large empires (which might depend mostly on internal trade) and slaver-states (whose commerce is already non-compliant and highly lucrative) would be able to cope.


That nations may survive embargoes does not mean they are readily ignored.

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Logon
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Founded: Dec 02, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Logon » Thu May 21, 2020 2:00 pm

https://imgur.com/a/1L08Xyp

This entire argument in a nutshell. The delusional anti-lifers arguing against clear facts with mental gymnastics.

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Logon
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Founded: Dec 02, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Logon » Thu May 21, 2020 2:05 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:Ooc: except it isnt. You'd be hard pressed to take the submitted draft and find useful comparisons.


I present to you: https://www.theonion.com/planned-parent ... 1819572640

This article, published 5/18/11 on the Onion (a satirical website for those who don't know) details a Planned Parenthood "abortionplex" featuring bars, shops, and a lazy river.

This resolution was clearly taken from the Onion, ironic as this article was making fun of anti-life/pro-death extremism.

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Separatist Peoples
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Posts: 15316
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu May 21, 2020 2:07 pm

Logon wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:Ooc: except it isnt. You'd be hard pressed to take the submitted draft and find useful comparisons.


I present to you: https://www.theonion.com/planned-parent ... 1819572640

This article, published 5/18/11 on the Onion (a satirical website for those who don't know) details a Planned Parenthood "abortionplex" featuring bars, shops, and a lazy river.

This resolution was clearly taken from the Onion, ironic as this article was making fun of anti-life/pro-death extremism.

Ooc: there are no references to Lazy Rivers in the submitted proposal. Or the other details. Even assuming that the first iteration was a joke, that does not mean the current iteration is. This sounds an awful lot like a genetic fallacy.

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu May 21, 2020 2:07 pm

Logon wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:Ooc: except it isnt. You'd be hard pressed to take the submitted draft and find useful comparisons.


I present to you: https://www.theonion.com/planned-parent ... 1819572640

This article, published 5/18/11 on the Onion (a satirical website for those who don't know) details a Planned Parenthood "abortionplex" featuring bars, shops, and a lazy river.

This resolution was clearly taken from the Onion, ironic as this article was making fun of anti-life/pro-death extremism.

Note the part I highlighted for you. See it?
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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