[PASSED] Access to Abortion

[Logon]

Today I learned that the right of a person to be born isn't "essential" but the right to kill is!

Since, by law (And all relevant ethical considerations), personhood is bestowed upon birth, this argument is fairly incoherent. Though I will applaud you for refraining from the common "abortion is murder"-fallacy, that so many anti-choice advocates readily evoke.

You see, under current Logonian law, personhood is granted upon detection of a heartbeat. That is why killing a pregnant woman and her fetus is a double murder under our laws, or an assault that causes miscarriage becomes a murder.

Bullishly asserting your imagined moral superiority? It seems like more than a few others are doing it as well. Of course they're not wrong when they agree with you, right?

"No, sir, they're only wrong when they are wrong. Incidentally, you are wrong."

Funny, I feel the same about you.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

"And as long as we see no cleaning up amongst the camps of the anti-women faction there will continue to be no compromise on the question of enslaving women. You cannot have 'a little slavery'. You are either an enemy of all sapientkind, or not."

[Logon]

OOC: I don't see the slaver? I see someone wrongfully asserting that women have a right to kill a child and a guy responding. Where is the slaver?

OOC: His country gleefully sells slaves on the open market in IC. Ergo he's a slaver in IC.
"And as long as we see no cleaning up amongst the camps of the anti-women faction there will continue to be no compromise on the question of enslaving women. You cannot have 'a little slavery'. You are either an enemy of sapientkind, or not."

OOC: My nation has, on multiple occasions, affirmed its opposition to slavery, so I would say IC my nation likely would've condemned him by now.

[Attempted Socialism]

"It is when you have actual slavers in your camp who goes uncondemned by your faction. As long as we see no condemnation of the slavers happily cohabiting in your living room - figuratively speaking - the Empire considers you all slaver-accomplices."

OOC: I don't see the slaver? I see someone wrongfully asserting that women have a right to kill a child and a guy responding. Where is the slaver?

OOC: Read the signature:

ELITE CROSSBOWMEN FOR HIRE and HIGH-QUALITY SLAVES FOR SALE:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=483733&p=36999628&sid=634422562317afcf5eb54ffd6a764276#p36999628

Since, by law (And all relevant ethical considerations), personhood is bestowed upon birth, this argument is fairly incoherent. Though I will applaud you for refraining from the common "abortion is murder"-fallacy, that so many anti-choice advocates readily evoke.

You see, under current Logonian law, personhood is granted upon detection of a heartbeat. That is why killing a pregnant woman and her fetus is a double murder under our laws, or an assault that causes miscarriage becomes a murder.

Without going too much into the science here, that means many sexually active women are guilty of murder simply because of spontaneous miscarriage. All legal rights that apply to persons apply to foetuses, etc. Sure you can RP as a silly nation, but it's just... silly.

[The New California Republic]

Except it isn't, as shown by NatSov-only proposals being discarded, and NatSov-only arguments being generally looked at with utter disdain and contempt. As they should be.

If he were trying to repeal this legislation, you might have a point. But he isn't, so you don't.

But he is using NatSov as his only argument, which is my point.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

You see, under current Logonian law, personhood is granted upon detection of a heartbeat. That is why killing a pregnant woman and her fetus is a double murder under our laws, or an assault that causes miscarriage becomes a murder.

Without going too much into the science here, that means many sexually active women are guilty of murder simply because of spontaneous miscarriage. All legal rights that apply to persons apply to foetuses, etc. Sure you can RP as a silly nation, but it's just... silly.

"So... slavery by force of judicial law?"

[The New Sicilian State]

You see, under current Logonian law, personhood is granted upon detection of a heartbeat. That is why killing a pregnant woman and her fetus is a double murder under our laws, or an assault that causes miscarriage becomes a murder.

"Unfortunately you would find that the World Assembly's opinion is quite different. Besides, your logic bans miscarriges... I suppose you've solved the problem of stillbirths as well, congratulations."

"No, sir, they're only wrong when they are wrong. Incidentally, you are wrong."

Funny, I feel the same about you.

"nu-uh!"

[Ghost Land]

I will fight against this with everything I have.

This.

This is one reason why people say NS has a left-bent

This too.

[Logon]

You see, under current Logonian law, personhood is granted upon detection of a heartbeat. That is why killing a pregnant woman and her fetus is a double murder under our laws, or an assault that causes miscarriage becomes a murder.

Without going too much into the science here, that means many sexually active women are guilty of murder simply because of spontaneous miscarriage. All legal rights that apply to persons apply to foetuses, etc. Sure you can RP as a silly nation, but it's just... silly.[/quote]

Spontaneous miscarriage is a whole other can of worms from induced miscarriage.

OOC: I have the same laws as most of the West does in that regard.

[Logon]

OOC: Does the slaver guy actually have the slavery policy?

[Logon]

You see, under current Logonian law, personhood is granted upon detection of a heartbeat. That is why killing a pregnant woman and her fetus is a double murder under our laws, or an assault that causes miscarriage becomes a murder.

"Unfortunately you would find that the World Assembly's opinion is quite different. Besides, your logic bans miscarriges... I suppose you've solved the problem of stillbirths as well, congratulations."

Funny, I feel the same about you.

"nu-uh!"

No woman willingly goes out and seeks a miscarriage such as that. Stillbirths are not murder the same way a disease killing someone is not murder.

[Wallenburg]

"Unfortunately you would find that the World Assembly's opinion is quite different. Besides, your logic bans miscarriges... I suppose you've solved the problem of stillbirths as well, congratulations."


"nu-uh!"

No woman willingly goes out and seeks a miscarriage. If she did, it becomes an abortion instead.

So having a miscarriage is effectively illegal. On mere suspicion that it was somehow intentional, a woman can be prosecuted for a spontaneous failure of the reproductive system.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

No woman willingly goes out and seeks a miscarriage. If she did, it becomes an abortion instead.

So having a miscarriage is effectively illegal. On mere suspicion that it was somehow intentional, a woman can be prosecuted for a spontaneous failure of the reproductive system.

"Yay every miscarriage is now treated as at least negligent homicide. What fun for women chained by this ridiculous nonsense."

[Attempted Socialism]

Without going too much into the science here, that means many sexually active women are guilty of murder simply because of spontaneous miscarriage. All legal rights that apply to persons apply to foetuses, etc. Sure you can RP as a silly nation, but it's just... silly.

"So... slavery by force of judicial law?"

OOC: The discussion was OOC. But at least it must allow a loophole where persons can be utterly controlled and effectively owned by another person under some circumstances, yeah. As I said, silly-land is silly.

Without going too much into the science here, that means many sexually active women are guilty of murder simply because of spontaneous miscarriage. All legal rights that apply to persons apply to foetuses, etc. Sure you can RP as a silly nation, but it's just... silly.

Spontaneous miscarriage is a whole other can of worms from induced miscarriage.

OOC: I have the same laws as most of the West does in that regard.

OOC: This... doesn't answer anything. You might call it manslaughter instead or whatever, but they're still guilty of it. You'd also need to investigate every sexually active woman who does not have a fairly safe hormonal birth control, just FYI. There's a reason why real nations tend to avoid this, and only the most anti-constitutional southern states try that road.

Edit: And just to clarify: You'd need to investigate sexually active women monthly.

[Dreadton]

I will fight against this with everything I have.

The Right Honorable Delegate from United Massachusetts supposed moral outrage may have carried some weight and sympathy back in the day. However, his willingness to compromise those morals in order to achieve their goals lead us to the conclusion that they are no more than the typical political hypocrite that will do whatever is necessary to maintain their power and stroke their ego. If it wasn't for the fact that we intended to support this resolution before hand, the fact that it outrages them so would have been enough for us to support it.

[The New Sicilian State]

No woman willingly goes out and seeks a miscarriage such as that. Stillbirths are not murder the same way a disease killing someone is not murder.

"So it's manslaughter then? They did have a beating heart after all. And considering many employers turn away employees or potential hirees that were even accused of a crime, shutting women out of the workforce for their failed pregnancies seems like an excellent model for international civil rights. That's without mentioning the social disdain that's sure to occur, ostricizing these women for failing to bring their pregnancies to term."

OOC: Out of character for this last comment because I don't believe Crawford would contain nearly enough snark to mention this one: referring to the stillbirth comment, considering you already appear to think of women as objects of regulation, would stillbirth be considered institutionalized failure?

[Alba and Cymru]

Ambassador Paorach looks at the resolution at vote, then looks at this bill,

"Due to the current voting patterns of 'Repeal #286', I will now call into question the legality of 'Access to Abortion'. I, as well as some of my colleagues, do believe that this bill stacks upon, or even copies Resolution #286, which is a metagaming violation according to the rules of the General Assembly."

[Separatist Peoples]

Ambassador Paorach looks at the resolution at vote, then looks at this bill,

"Due to the current voting patterns of 'Repeal #286', I will now call into question the legality of 'Access to Abortion'. I, as well as some of my colleagues, do believe that this bill stacks upon, or even copies Resolution #286, which is a metagaming violation according to the rules of the General Assembly."

OOC: that isnt a Metagaming violation, it doesnt Duplicate, and Legality issues are OOC.

[Wallenburg]

Ambassador Paorach looks at the resolution at vote, then looks at this bill,

"Due to the current voting patterns of 'Repeal #286', I will now call into question the legality of 'Access to Abortion'. I, as well as some of my colleagues, do believe that this bill stacks upon, or even copies Resolution #286, which is a metagaming violation according to the rules of the General Assembly."

1) How a vote for this resolution goes has no bearing on the legality of another resolution.
2) Building upon or duplicating existing legislation is not a metagaming violation.
3) Access to Abortion deals primarily with providing easy and affordable access to abortion services by building clinics and requiring member states to fund travel to and services at them. Any overlap with 286 is minor enough not to constitute a duplication violation.
4) A challenge belongs in its own thread, although I would recommend saving everyone's time by not making such frivolous legality challenges.

[United Massachusetts]

No woman willingly goes out and seeks a miscarriage. If she did, it becomes an abortion instead.

So having a miscarriage is effectively illegal. On mere suspicion that it was somehow intentional, a woman can be prosecuted for a spontaneous failure of the reproductive system.

This is nonsense. Most pro-life nations do not prosecute women for seeking abortions. In fact, the replacement that I authored prohibited this explicitly, so this argument doesn't make sense.

[Imperium Anglorum]

On Abortion s 6:

DECLARES that it is neither a criminal offence nor a cause for civil suit to have obtained abortion for reasons under Section 1 and no inhabitant of a member country shall be subject to prosecution for having done so, nor otherwise subjected to harassment or persecution in law or at the instigation of the state in consequence;

[United Massachusetts]

On Abortion s 6:

DECLARES that it is neither a criminal offence nor a cause for civil suit to have obtained abortion for reasons under Section 1 and no inhabitant of a member country shall be subject to prosecution for having done so, nor otherwise subjected to harassment or persecution in law or at the instigation of the state in consequence;

And if Reproductive Freedoms is repealed, that would still be the case. Women could not be prosecuted for miscarriages because they could not be prosecuted for abortions.

[Bananaistan]

"After a stormy (remote) meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the Communism! It's A Party party, the People's Republic of Bananaistan opposes this proposal on the principle of open and transparent law. Section 6 is a dud section. It does nothing while GAR#286 remains in effect. Pointless provisions which go nowhere and do nothing are pointless and form bad lawmaking.

"We also oppose due to the funding mechanism for the construction of these clinics. This is flahulach. The general fund is not a bottomless pit. While we are confident that the People's Republic will make no contribution to the ongoing operation of the clinics, we object to paying for their construction."

- Ted

[Attempted Socialism]

So having a miscarriage is effectively illegal. On mere suspicion that it was somehow intentional, a woman can be prosecuted for a spontaneous failure of the reproductive system.

This is nonsense. Most pro-life nations do not prosecute women for seeking abortions. In fact, the replacement that I authored prohibited this explicitly, so this argument doesn't make sense.

Well, Logon said they wanted to punish the women, and a quick google for just US states turns up a grim picture as well (I could find one, two, three states where prison sentences are either proposed or the law already, while WP found me a few more). Going outside the States, women are regularly jailed for seeking abortions as well. Perhaps you don't want to punish the women; if so you're one of the few anti-choice advocates who won't. IRL and nations here both prove you wrong everywhere you care to look.

[Freest Freedonia]

The delegation of the Free Lands of Freest Freedonia is opposed to this proposal on the grounds of fiscal hardship. The requirement of providing free abortions will cause and infinite increase in taxes on our already impoverished nation. We are all for abortion at any point during the pregnancy for any reason imaginable, we just do not believe that our government should pay for it.