[DEFEATED] Commend Cormactopia Prime

[Sedgistan]

Sev is busy IRL so I got the go ahead to move forward with taking on the commendation. My hope is to get the commendation through voting first before the condemnation. I will work on editing that other proposal in the near future as well. I was conscious to leave out details that are related to the condemnation proposal: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=480356 Feel free to offer thoughts

The Security Council,

Highlighting the recognition that Cormactopia Prime has among their fellow nations due to their region-building and authorship,

Further highlighting that this recognition is evident by this nominee being named the most influential and impactful nation across four years,

Affirming the nominee's years of service to Osiris in building regional stability through:

• Serving in multiple leadership positions including delegate on three separate occasions and vice-delegate twice;
• Authoring several constitutions and playing a vital role in the current governmental structure of the region;
• Intervening to ensure that the region recovered after hostile foreign agents were found to be in the government including LizLemons, a candidate for delegate at the time, and Adytus, who proposed a constitution and attempted to stack the voting with other hostile parties;

Recognizing that after foreign agents attempted to manipulate the government of Lazarus in 2018, Cormactopia Prime stepped in to write the constitution for the region and minimize hostile influences,

Noting that after these agents were revealed, Cormactopia Prime became heavily involved in Pacifica, serving as the region’s delegate and president,

Admiring the responsibility that the nominee took on to form the regional community and government,

Further admiring Cormactopia Prime’s leadership in transitioning these nations to Thalassia after the regional founder refused to step down after many months of inactivity,

Applauding the nominee’s efforts, across several nations, in authoring numerous resolutions and documents including:

• Four Security Council Liberations (#144 Liberate Liberal Haven, #154 Liberate Coalition of Freedom, #159 Liberate The International Communist Union, and #198 Liberate The Arab League);
• The Ten Commandments of Detagging to provide expectations for novice defending nations as well as a notice on how to approach nations who have engaged in behaviors that have caused harm in regional communities;

Appreciating the nominee’s commitment to fighting the spread of fascism and condemning the ideology over the years through multiple military campaigns including their assistance in leading the Sovereign Confederation's invasion of Union of Fascists, and advancing regional policies against fascism in Pacifica, Thalassia, and Asgard,

Acknowledging Cormactopia Prime's advocacy of equality and inclusion through their Commendation of Gay and their organization of The NationStates #LoveIsLove Campaign,

Declaring that it takes significant competency to not only possess the level of command that this nominee has held for years, but also use that power to build up other regions,

Hereby Commends Cormactopia Prime.

[Bormiar]

Acknowledging that Cormactopia Prime has immense influence in NationStates and has used this authority in many cases to protect those in greatest need,

You should be more specific. This first clause should introduce Cormac and (in my opinion) be an assertion about Cormac that you prove in the later pre-ambulatory clauses.

Highlighting the high regard that Cormactopia Prime has among their fellow nations as evident by being awarded the most influential and impactful nation in 2015, 2017, 2018, and 2019,

This is mostly fluff. Rather than stating that they were awarded, state why. It's much more effective that way.

Recognizing the nominee’s stance against The Pacific, previously condemned by this body, after the region was found to have infiltrated Osiris and Lazarus for hostile purposes,

1) Are you trying to lose your votes? Why trade TP's for Laz's when you can (maybe) get both? TP has been nice enough recently that they might just forget about it.
2) Commending someone for their opinions against the region is the equivalent of condemning TP again.

Noting that from this stance, Cormactopia Prime became heavily involved in Pacificia, serving as the region’s president and delegate,

Iirc the president is the delegate. What is the job of the president in Pacifica?

Also you spelled it "Pacificia".

Admiring the responsibility that the nominee took on to form the regional community and government,

This is either fluff or it needs specific examples.

Further admiring Cormactopia Prime’s leadership in transitioning these nations to Thalassia after the regional founder refused to step down even after many months of inactivity,

Good.

Applauding the nominee’s efforts, across multiple nations, to protect and promote sovereignty when other regions have been in dire need including:

• Authoring four Security Council Liberations (#144 Liberate Liberal Haven, #154 Liberate Coalition of Freedom, #159 Liberate The International Communist Union, and #198 Liberate The Arab League
• Commending the region of Gay for their dedication to equality and inclusion
• Also authoring and distributing the Ten Commandments of Detagging to provide expectations for novice defending nations as well as a notice of how to approach nations who have engaged in behaviors that have hurt others
• Participating in multiple defenses and liberations of regions occupied by foreign invaders

I see the connection you're making, but don't think it's strong enough to put them all in a single list- especially the part about commending Gay.

Appreciating the nominee’s commitment to fighting the spread of fascism and condemning the ideology over the years through multiple military campaigns and regional policies,

Again, examples. Which military campaigns? Which regional policies?

Declaring that it takes significant competency, integrity and compassion to not only possess the level of command that this nominee has held for years, but also use that power for the betterment of others,

This proposal doesn't convince me of that. It doesn't make me think that Cormac has been around for a long time. It hardly mentions Osiris. What about the 10 SC resolutions? What about Camelot? What about defending (UDL, SPSF)? What about Lazarus? What about Osiris!?

[Tinhampton]

There should be a right parenthesis ")" after the word "League". Otherwise, full support in principle, muahahahaha!

[WayNeacTia]

Yep, support. If anyone deserves both it is Cormac. The game just wouldn't be the same without him.

[Xoriet]

Lazarus was undoubtedly NPO-sanctioned, but Osiris was not. For in principle because he's earned one, against as long as this tidbit of misinformation is there.

[A mean old man]

Recognizing the nominee’s stance against The Pacific, previously condemned by this body, after the region was found to have infiltrated Osiris and Lazarus for hostile purposes,

False.

[Jakker City]

It looks like my wording wasn't clear with that clause, so I will work on editing it a bit.

Additionally, I will work to make some changes/additions shortly to the proposal as a whole.

[Twins of Hearts]

Against, A couper, especially of GCR's like Osiris, that thrives on NS drama should not receive a Commend.

[Bowzin]

Against, A couper, especially of GCR's like Osiris, should not receive a Commend.

So he should get a condemn? I'll note you feel this way for the condemn proposal.

[Twins of Hearts]

Against, A couper, especially of GCR's like Osiris, should not receive a Commend.

So he should get a condemn? I'll note you feel this way for the condemn proposal.

Putting words in other peoples mouths is considered rude in my culture.

I do not support either game apparatus for this particular player since being a NS Drama Instigator and perpetrator that has also couped Osiris twice is not worthy of either specific punishment or award.

[The Stalker]

Full support. Cormac is an accomplished player and deserves both in my book.

[Yokiria]

<snip>

Well, at least you didn't twist this into a discussion about blacklisting. That's progress.

[The Church of Satan]

Putting words in other peoples mouths is considered rude in my culture.

I do not support either game apparatus for this particular player since being a NS Drama Instigator and perpetrator that has also couped Osiris twice is not worthy of either specific punishment or award.

Cormac has done things worthy of both commendation and condemnation. That doesn't mean he should get neither. In fact he is more than deserving of both.

[Numero Capitan]

I think this needs a serious redraft, there are some surprising omissions and the content doesn't warrant a commendation in my opinion.

The argument seems to circulate around non-specific involvement in 'multiple' defenses, membership in two regions (see below) as well as general opposition to the NPO and fascism (I think every nation on NS pretty much can tick one of those boxes)

For starters, the proposal needs to be far more specific.

As I understand it, Cormac has been 'retired' for most of the existence of Thalassia and only took up a significant role within the last few weeks.

Pacifica might have been one of the most dysfunctional regions in recent memory and its abandonment appears to have been largely because of the nominees breakdown in relationship with Topid, the founder (from what I've been told by Topid). I am not sure it is a great example for inclusion.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Cormac has done things worthy of both commendation and condemnation. That doesn't mean he should get neither.

Doesn't it tho?

I'm not going to make the argument that they deserve neither badge because they have changed sides multiple times. That tendency has largely left itself in the past and is not a disqualifier in my book. What disqualifies this nominee for a commendation in my eyes, and I know I'm going to get flak for this, is the way this nation exercises its bully pulpit. Regardless of whatever side Cormactopia played in various events of international intrigue, it is the opinion of this representative that they at times have taken things too far. The relentless attacking one has to put up with when at odds with Cormactopia has been unparalleled in NationStates, which has largely lead to Cormac's comfortable position as Kingmaker and the Most Influential NS Player of the past decade. The stamina and charisma of this nominee may never be matched in this world, but I've seen this power used to break nations, regions and alliances down more often than I think many of us bother to remember. At the end of the day, I still only know what Cormac stands against in any one moment.

I've been on all sides of this nation (friend, ally, bad, worse, enemy, neutral, friendly acquaintance, ext) as most of us have been. I ask everyone to remember what it is like when this nation sets their sights on you in a negative light. I will be voting against a commendation of this nominee. I would not oppose a condemnation.

[Lord Dominator]

Off the top of my head, Cormac also wrote the most recent constitutions of Osiris and Lazarus as I recall. Also probably some Miniluv articles worth mentioning.

The argument seems to circulate around non-specific involvement in 'multiple' defenses, membership in two regions (see below) as well as general opposition to the NPO and fascism (I think every nation on NS pretty much can tick one of those boxes)

Agreed on the defenses part, there's certainly something that can probably be dug up.
For starters, the proposal needs to be far more specific.

Pacifica might have been one of the most dysfunctional regions in recent memory and its abandonment appears to have been largely because of the nominees breakdown in relationship with Topid, the founder (from what I've been told by Topid). I am not sure it is a great example for inclusion.

Topid wasn't exactly around to have any relationship with for most of the relevant period.

[Cormactopia Prime]

As I understand it, Cormac has been 'retired' for most of the existence of Thalassia and only took up a significant role within the last few weeks.

Pacifica might have been one of the most dysfunctional regions in recent memory and its abandonment appears to have been largely because of the nominees breakdown in relationship with Topid, the founder (from what I've been told by Topid). I am not sure it is a great example for inclusion.

I'm not going to get knee deep into the debate over my own commendation, but I did want to address these factual inaccuracies.

First, I didn't step back until a bit after Thalassia was founded, but I was its first Founder and I was deeply involved with laying the groundwork for its foundation, including the writing of its constitution (which was based largely on a constitution I'd written for Pacifica anyway), its recruitment, etc., etc. Only after it was apparent the region was stable did I pass the Founder on to someone else and ease up on my responsibilities there until recently.

In regard to the problems between Topid and me, regardless of whatever else he may have told you, the problem was that he was a negligent and reckless Founder who liked to do things like create forums and Discord servers, encourage people to join them, and leave them totally unmoderated, not to mention leave Pacifica founderless for lengthy periods of time. We as a community finally got tired of that and decided to move on to Thalassia. As you can see by taking a look at Pacifica now, he is back to being an absentee Founder and people newly involved there are also getting tired of it, so this was hardly an issue exclusive to me or my time in Pacifica. I wasn't thrilled with him, but I couldn't care less now and I wish him well in his endeavors.

[The Gilded Star]

As I understand it, Cormac has been 'retired' for most of the existence of Thalassia and only took up a significant role within the last few weeks.

Pacifica might have been one of the most dysfunctional regions in recent memory and its abandonment appears to have been largely because of the nominees breakdown in relationship with Topid, the founder (from what I've been told by Topid). I am not sure it is a great example for inclusion.

I'll speak up a bit as a resident of both:

It is correct that Cormac has been retired for most of Thalassia's existence, however he was one of the driving forces in helping to get it established and transferring everyone from Pacifica on over. He didn't disappear from the region during his retirement, though, but took up a more passive role because he wanted the region to develop leadership independent from him, which is partly what prompted the move to Thalassia (Pacifica was far too tumultuous to survive leadership changes). He remained available for counsel if anyone sought him out for it, but he wanted others to decide whether that counsel was desired or not.

As for Pacifica, the major issues at hand stemmed from Topid's situation. Topid didn't want to step down as Founder or overall leader of Pacifica, but also was barely ever around, absent for several months at a time, and when he did (briefly) reappear, he frequently veto'd some decision for the future of the region, and then immediately vanished again without offering alternative plans. Throughout this, he also allowed his founder account (and ONLY his founder account) to CTE regularly, which put Pacifica in a constant security crisis for months on end. This was frustrating not just for Cormac, but for everyone in Pacifica's government that wanted to protect or develop the region.

(Got ninja'd by Cormac, apparently)

[Numero Capitan]

Fair enough, obviously I've only briefly heard one side of it but I think Cormac's specific, positive contributions need to be fleshed out in the proposal because those didn't strike me as convincing reasons on face value and I'm sure I wasn't alone in thinking that.

[The Church of Satan]

I'm not going to make the argument that they deserve neither badge because they have changed sides multiple times. That tendency has largely left itself in the past and is not a disqualifier in my book. What disqualifies this nominee for a commendation in my eyes, and I know I'm going to get flak for this, is the way this nation exercises its bully pulpit. Regardless of whatever side Cormactopia played in various events of international intrigue, it is the opinion of this representative that they at times have taken things too far. The relentless attacking one has to put up with when at odds with Cormactopia has been unparalleled in NationStates, which has largely lead to Cormac's comfortable position as Kingmaker and the Most Influential NS Player of the past decade. The stamina and charisma of this nominee may never be matched in this world, but I've seen this power used to break nations, regions and alliances down more often than I think many of us bother to remember. At the end of the day, I still only know what Cormac stands against in any one moment.

I've been on all sides of this nation (friend, ally, bad, worse, enemy, neutral, friendly acquaintance, ext) as most of us have been. I ask everyone to remember what it is like when this nation sets their sights on you in a negative light. I will be voting against a commendation of this nominee. I would not oppose a condemnation.

Well, I can't deny that. It's a completely valid and justified stance.

[Profilgate]

Cormac has done things worthy of both commendation and condemnation. That doesn't mean he should get neither. In fact he is more than deserving of both.

A negative and a positive , +1+-1= 0

Deserves zero, earned zero, not a king maker or queenmaker, simply a salt miner. Against both Condemn and Commend.

[Bormiar]

Cormac has done things worthy of both commendation and condemnation. That doesn't mean he should get neither. In fact he is more than deserving of both.

A negative and a positive , +1+-1= 0

Deserves zero, earned zero, not a king maker or queenmaker, simply a salt miner. Against both Condemn and Commend.

Fair, but most people see condemnations as a +1 rather than a -1; OOC impressive, in other words.

If we were to do only one, I'd say Cormac's commendable actions outweigh their condemnable actions, but their IC character is one that should be condemned. That's another problem I have with this resolution- it shouldn't and doesn't have to contradict the condemn.

IC: Condemn for the capricious, back-stabbing, "roll a dice and pick an ideology", glib, sometimes deceitful character that is Cormac.

Commend because, no matter how the SC spins it, we are incapable of shaking the enormous impact Cormac has had on the regions they've joined. Cormac has unforgettably intertwined themselves in the history of at least one GCR. That said, characterologically I don't think this one should label Cormac as "compassionate" or a "kingmaker", rather the R4 equivalent of a dedicated, skilled player.

[The Church of Satan]

Cormac has done things worthy of both commendation and condemnation. That doesn't mean he should get neither. In fact he is more than deserving of both.

A negative and a positive , +1+-1= 0

Deserves zero, earned zero, not a king maker or queenmaker, simply a salt miner. Against both Condemn and Commend.

Commendations and condemnations however are not the same as math. Either way, they add something to the target of the resolution, be it a song of praise or a wag of its finger. So it's +1 good thing and +1 bad thing. Neither cancels out the other.

[Lord Dominator]

A negative and a positive , +1+-1= 0

Deserves zero, earned zero, not a king maker or queenmaker, simply a salt miner. Against both Condemn and Commend.

Commendations and condemnations however are not the same as math. Either way, they add something to the target of the resolution, be it a song of praise or a wag of its finger. So it's +1 good thing and +1 bad thing. Neither cancels out the other.

Really the only way for them to cancel each other out would be to have them be about the same actions. Coincidentally, that's illegal

[Jakker City]

The proposal has been updated in the OP. As the proposals become more developed, it becomes clear to see that Cormac has done a ton of commendable things and if you see the condemnations as a means to praise significant work that is IC condemnable, they do not cancel each other out. We have had a nation before (Sedge) hold a commendation and condemnation at the same time before.