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by Yokiria » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:48 pm
by Omigodtheykilledkenny » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:54 pm
by Praeceps » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:15 am
Excidium Planetis wrote:Praeceps wrote:You don't even have any stats in the top 1% so should we even be talking
I have never professed to be good at or even interested in the issues game. This nation was also a WA nation for a long time, and as you probably know, the WA messes with your nation's stats.The effects of issues stack. I could create a new nation but no matter how well I answered issues for the first week, I wouldn't be able to pass Kindjal, PS, Ransium, myself in the rankings. That would be because I haven't answered the magnitude of issues on the new nation that others have. When you answer issues after being established for quite some time rarely do you take your nation in an ew direction. Most of the time, you are simply reaffirming the decisions you have made previously. For example, I take the stance that I want to employ people; when an issue where an option to increase employment comes along, I typically make the choice to employ people (keeping in mind other effects of course) which increases my employment. Over time, as I continue to come with issues related to employment, I will be able to make more choices that increase my nation's employment. Answering issues in this manner pushes you further in a direction and over time, this adds up.
It's also know that some issues have seriously dramatic effects, and that the more extreme a nation is the more small stat changes affect it. And there's been many new issues since Kindjal started. So either Kindjal was just really lucky or did a good job of predicting which new issue choices would keep them on the same path.
by Aelyria » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:18 am
by Kindjal » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:42 am
by Marxist Germany » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:30 am
by Aelyria » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:06 am
Kindjal wrote:Well now I'm glad I never checked the forum when someone last tried to get me that commendation.
As I stated earlier I did some regional RP, I tried to get some life in my region, answered some newbies' TG but yes I did not persevere for 17 years.
Saying that I refuse to recognize the community or contribute is a little extreme in my opinion.
Contributing is not easy when english is not your mother tongue and the only time I tried to write a proposal I got shut down by an admin because I didn't respect the rules, which I didn't know because I didn't spend enough Time on the forum, I get that, but he felt the need to add that since I've been playing for so long I should know better than that. Well I didn't, and I didn't learn anymore since because I felt that WA looked like a private club where I was not welcome. Today I feel the same thanks to some of your comments. Now you can keep on bashing on people who are not investing time on RP because they are struggling with it or you can try to lend a hand. And by that I don't mean commend me, I don't care, I mean maybe be a little more open minded towards other players who may choose not to play the exact same way you do, and maybe a little more friendly so you wouldn't scare people who are willing to contribute and RP...
by Bormiar » Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:07 am
Aelyria wrote:But what am I supposed to conclude from the fact that you haven't posted anything even on your own RMB in ages, and that--as far as I can tell--your only posts in the forum are in this thread, and of those, exactly three? Perhaps I have exaggerated your lack of participation in the community, but unless you've been carefully deleting all your prior posts, there's no record of any interactions you've had on here in the ten years you've been a forum member. What other things should I be looking at to see your interaction with the NationStates community?
by Kindjal » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:47 am
by Island Girl Herby » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:55 am
by Superbunny » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:39 am
Aelyria wrote:Kindjal wrote:Well now I'm glad I never checked the forum when someone last tried to get me that commendation.
As I stated earlier I did some regional RP, I tried to get some life in my region, answered some newbies' TG but yes I did not persevere for 17 years.
Saying that I refuse to recognize the community or contribute is a little extreme in my opinion.
Contributing is not easy when english is not your mother tongue and the only time I tried to write a proposal I got shut down by an admin because I didn't respect the rules, which I didn't know because I didn't spend enough Time on the forum, I get that, but he felt the need to add that since I've been playing for so long I should know better than that. Well I didn't, and I didn't learn anymore since because I felt that WA looked like a private club where I was not welcome. Today I feel the same thanks to some of your comments. Now you can keep on bashing on people who are not investing time on RP because they are struggling with it or you can try to lend a hand. And by that I don't mean commend me, I don't care, I mean maybe be a little more open minded towards other players who may choose not to play the exact same way you do, and maybe a little more friendly so you wouldn't scare people who are willing to contribute and RP...
I'm not saying you are a bad person, nor that you've done anything wrong. You are not a problem. It's this commendation that I consider to be a problem.
Yokiria wrote:This will make a nice Repeal in a few years.
by Yokiria » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 am
Kindjal wrote:I must admit, never used the "big" forum, only posted RPs in the RMB (didn't even remember that it was once not named that, but again, the WA was once the UN... so long ago...)
Anyway, I thought I had backups on my hard drive of a few of the RP we did back then (not sure I would have shared but just wanted to browse a bit and remember good old time), but it appears I only saved one agenda I wrote where I visited other nations of Groland and a love letter I wrote to another nation (we were having a contest) so yes it will be difficult for me to "prove" any involvement with the community. But I'm more concerned about not having any backup from things I expected to have...
Bormiar wrote:I imagine that this was very early on in Kindjal’s career (i.e. 2003). The old, slow forum nationstates.net/forum is not a thing anymore, so we can’t find posts from there. This forum is much later than you think.
As for the RMB, the RMB used to be known as the “Civil Headquarters”, and up until 2011 or so (check the RMB of an older GCR, like TRR, Laz, or a feeder) posts saved only up to 10 messages. Nothing else.
So in reality it’s more shocking if there is record from something from 2003. What would you expect for a game created to last a few months and promote a book?
by Bormiar » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:03 pm
Yokiria wrote:Okay. My main problem with this proposal was the lack of community involvement by Kindjal. However..Kindjal wrote:I must admit, never used the "big" forum, only posted RPs in the RMB (didn't even remember that it was once not named that, but again, the WA was once the UN... so long ago...)
Anyway, I thought I had backups on my hard drive of a few of the RP we did back then (not sure I would have shared but just wanted to browse a bit and remember good old time), but it appears I only saved one agenda I wrote where I visited other nations of Groland and a love letter I wrote to another nation (we were having a contest) so yes it will be difficult for me to "prove" any involvement with the community. But I'm more concerned about not having any backup from things I expected to have...Bormiar wrote:I imagine that this was very early on in Kindjal’s career (i.e. 2003). The old, slow forum nationstates.net/forum is not a thing anymore, so we can’t find posts from there. This forum is much later than you think.
As for the RMB, the RMB used to be known as the “Civil Headquarters”, and up until 2011 or so (check the RMB of an older GCR, like TRR, Laz, or a feeder) posts saved only up to 10 messages. Nothing else.
So in reality it’s more shocking if there is record from something from 2003. What would you expect for a game created to last a few months and promote a book?
These posts have convinced me that the lack of community involvement is a product of that involvement simply being lost to time. So, with that, and with Kindjal's refreshingly down-to-earth behavior in this thread, I'm changing my vote to FOR. I still believe the proposal leans too heavily on one singular aspect of the game, but that's a problem for if/when it faces future repeals rather than the present.
by Ransium » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:42 pm
by Omigodtheykilledkenny » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:39 pm
Superbunny wrote:Aelyria wrote:I'm not saying you are a bad person, nor that you've done anything wrong. You are not a problem. It's this commendation that I consider to be a problem.
Doesn't matter what your intent was, you still sounded like a massive jerk and made Kindjal feel extremely unwelcome in record time. Why do you take such issue with someone getting a gameplay commendation in the gameplay part of the WA? Why do you belittle his accomplishments to nothing more than "churning out numbers"? I doubt this proposal will make anyone take stat-wise commendations any more seriously than now, but thanks for showing everyone why nobody takes the SC seriously.
The reason, I think, that this proposal is at play is because over 16 years, Kindjal has remained at the top of the WA charts in over 20 categories, while dealing with an assortment of sometimes unpredictable and always random issues. Not everyone who gets a commendation has to be a defender or the NPA's special boy. Make a new nation and see if you can match Kindjal in a year. I'll wait.
by Bormiar » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:44 pm
Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:Superbunny wrote:
Doesn't matter what your intent was, you still sounded like a massive jerk and made Kindjal feel extremely unwelcome in record time. Why do you take such issue with someone getting a gameplay commendation in the gameplay part of the WA? Why do you belittle his accomplishments to nothing more than "churning out numbers"? I doubt this proposal will make anyone take stat-wise commendations any more seriously than now, but thanks for showing everyone why nobody takes the SC seriously.
The reason, I think, that this proposal is at play is because over 16 years, Kindjal has remained at the top of the WA charts in over 20 categories, while dealing with an assortment of sometimes unpredictable and always random issues. Not everyone who gets a commendation has to be a defender or the NPA's special boy. Make a new nation and see if you can match Kindjal in a year. I'll wait.
Yeah. Voting for was definitely the right choice.
by Aelyria » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:41 pm
Superbunny wrote:Doesn't matter what your intent was, you still sounded like a massive jerk and made Kindjal feel extremely unwelcome in record time.
Why do you take such issue with someone getting a gameplay commendation in the gameplay part of the WA? Why do you belittle his accomplishments to nothing more than "churning out numbers"? I doubt this proposal will make anyone take stat-wise commendations any more seriously than now, but thanks for showing everyone why nobody takes the SC seriously.
Not everyone who gets a commendation has to be a defender or the NPA's special boy.
Make a new nation and see if you can match Kindjal in a year. I'll wait.
by Bormiar » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 pm
Aelyria wrote:Why do you take such issue with someone getting a gameplay commendation in the gameplay part of the WA? Why do you belittle his accomplishments to nothing more than "churning out numbers"? I doubt this proposal will make anyone take stat-wise commendations any more seriously than now, but thanks for showing everyone why nobody takes the SC seriously.
Because I don't consider these commendations to be solely gameplay oriented. It's that simple. They're international ("interregional," if you prefer). Or, to get very technical, there are two different layers of gameplay to NationStates: individual nation behavior, and interaction with the community. Commendations--and condemnations!--are part of the latter, explicitly, from every guide I can find on the subject. I find this commendation disturbingly reductive.
Aelyria wrote:From what information I can gather, there have been a total of 7 "NS Stats" commendations passed. Exactly one of them was even primarily about numerical or ranking matters, and it was repealed specifically for the reasons cited. I quote: "Recognizing that, while controlling several nations with unique domestic structures is a marginally impressive accomplishment, it is one which is easily accomplished with careful preparation and diligence." Further: "Acknowledging that, while Luna Amore's defense of Free Thought is a commendable action, it is the only one present in SC#123 which may be called such."
by The Palentine » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:30 am
by Kindjal » Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:14 am
Aelyria wrote:Excuse me? I literally said one thing about Kindjal's behavior: that they refused to recognize the broader community. I based that judgment on the fact that in ten years, they had never posted anywhere on these forums (or had deleted any posts they had created, which is essentially the same thing). I said, very clearly, "Kindjal has not interacted on the international stage in any meaningful sense." Now, of course, this doesn't consider any of their behavior from more than 10 years ago, nor does it consider whether they were particularly active in their RMB prior to their disengagement from it over a year ago. Perhaps they were incredibly active in ways now invisible to me, but if so, why does that merit a commendation now?
Again: I have absolutely no problem with Kindjal. So, since evidently that wasn't obvious from my previous post: I'm sorry I upset you, Kindjal. You are blameless.
[...]
So: Kindjal, I hurt you, and I apologize for that. You should be proud of your tenacity and accomplishments. I don't think those things merit this specific form of reward.
by Bears Armed » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:37 am
Bormiar wrote:I'm afraid someone in several years (or worse, someone around now) is going to see it, not bother reading the arguments in this thread or make up their mind before reading it, and go ahead and try and repeal it, and no one's going to care because they'll have the same initial reaction against it as many people did here.
by One Small Island » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:48 am
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