[PASSED] Commend Kindjal

[Yokiria]

This will make a nice Repeal in a few years.

[Bormiar]

This will make a nice Repeal in a few years.

We’ll cross that bridge if we come to it.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

My writing resolutions apparently never helped anyone, especially since people are always trying to repeal them. I happily endorse and vote FOR this resolution, if for no other reason to cheese off the SC snobs (imagine being snobby about a council whose very first resolution at vote was written by a damned Kennyite!). Also because Kindjal is always first in the world, and the best I could ever do is a lousy 47th (Most Armed Citizenry, IIRC).

Cheers, you lovely lovable peace-loving Kindjalis!

[Praeceps]

You don't even have any stats in the top 1% so should we even be talking

I have never professed to be good at or even interested in the issues game. This nation was also a WA nation for a long time, and as you probably know, the WA messes with your nation's stats.

The effects of issues stack. I could create a new nation but no matter how well I answered issues for the first week, I wouldn't be able to pass Kindjal, PS, Ransium, myself in the rankings. That would be because I haven't answered the magnitude of issues on the new nation that others have. When you answer issues after being established for quite some time rarely do you take your nation in an ew direction. Most of the time, you are simply reaffirming the decisions you have made previously. For example, I take the stance that I want to employ people; when an issue where an option to increase employment comes along, I typically make the choice to employ people (keeping in mind other effects of course) which increases my employment. Over time, as I continue to come with issues related to employment, I will be able to make more choices that increase my nation's employment. Answering issues in this manner pushes you further in a direction and over time, this adds up.

It's also know that some issues have seriously dramatic effects, and that the more extreme a nation is the more small stat changes affect it. And there's been many new issues since Kindjal started. So either Kindjal was just really lucky or did a good job of predicting which new issue choices would keep them on the same path.

Some issues certainly do have dramatic effects such as switching to capitalism from socialism (as I have mistakenly done a number of times). However, these effects can be resolved because an option to undo the decision (through making a decision that is) appear in later issues. It (fortunately) makes it as though you almost had never made the original mistake at all.I

[Aelyria]

I don't believe a commendation is merited by literally doing only--no more and no less--the act of playing the game. Not interacting with anyone, not teaching anyone, not leading anything. Just playing the game for a really long time.

This would be like saying that William McGonagall deserved to be Poet Laureate or some similar posthumous honor because he wrote lots of poems, never stopped writing in his...distinctive style, and still has his work published today. The fact is, all Kindjal has done is play NationStates. That's it. Kindjal has not acted on the international stage in any meaningful sense.

If we are awarding commendations purely for playing the game consistently, this sets an extremely bad precedent. It tells people that interaction with the community is unnecessary to earn accolades, and that "being an inspiration" simply means cranking out numbers, not contributing to the group experience. Kindjal has contributed, as far as I can tell, nothing to the community. Therefore, I see no reason why the community should give such special recognition. Why recognize someone who refuses to recognize the community in any identifiable sense?

[Kindjal]

Well now I'm glad I never checked the forum when someone last tried to get me that commendation.
As I stated earlier I did some regional RP, I tried to get some life in my region, answered some newbies' TG but yes I did not persevere for 17 years.
Saying that I refuse to recognize the community or contribute is a little extreme in my opinion.
Contributing is not easy when english is not your mother tongue and the only time I tried to write a proposal I got shut down by an admin because I didn't respect the rules, which I didn't know because I didn't spend enough Time on the forum, I get that, but he felt the need to add that since I've been playing for so long I should know better than that. Well I didn't, and I didn't learn anymore since because I felt that WA looked like a private club where I was not welcome. Today I feel the same thanks to some of your comments. Now you can keep on bashing on people who are not investing time on RP because they are struggling with it or you can try to lend a hand. And by that I don't mean commend me, I don't care, I mean maybe be a little more open minded towards other players who may choose not to play the exact same way you do, and maybe a little more friendly so you wouldn't scare people who are willing to contribute and RP...

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: Changing my vote to FOR.

[Aelyria]

Well now I'm glad I never checked the forum when someone last tried to get me that commendation.
As I stated earlier I did some regional RP, I tried to get some life in my region, answered some newbies' TG but yes I did not persevere for 17 years.
Saying that I refuse to recognize the community or contribute is a little extreme in my opinion.
Contributing is not easy when english is not your mother tongue and the only time I tried to write a proposal I got shut down by an admin because I didn't respect the rules, which I didn't know because I didn't spend enough Time on the forum, I get that, but he felt the need to add that since I've been playing for so long I should know better than that. Well I didn't, and I didn't learn anymore since because I felt that WA looked like a private club where I was not welcome. Today I feel the same thanks to some of your comments. Now you can keep on bashing on people who are not investing time on RP because they are struggling with it or you can try to lend a hand. And by that I don't mean commend me, I don't care, I mean maybe be a little more open minded towards other players who may choose not to play the exact same way you do, and maybe a little more friendly so you wouldn't scare people who are willing to contribute and RP...

I'm not saying you are a bad person, nor that you've done anything wrong. You are not a problem. It's this commendation that I consider to be a problem.

I respect that English is not your first language, and that that can be a significant barrier to interacting with a community. I have more than once looked into certain communities that speak a language other than English, and found it difficult to engage. I didn't know that you had experienced issues in the past, and that is a really unfortunate thing.

But what am I supposed to conclude from the fact that you haven't posted anything even on your own RMB in ages, and that--as far as I can tell--your only posts in the forum are in this thread, and of those, exactly three? Perhaps I have exaggerated your lack of participation in the community, but unless you've been carefully deleting all your prior posts, there's no record of any interactions you've had on here in the ten years you've been a forum member. What other things should I be looking at to see your interaction with the NationStates community?

[Bormiar]

But what am I supposed to conclude from the fact that you haven't posted anything even on your own RMB in ages, and that--as far as I can tell--your only posts in the forum are in this thread, and of those, exactly three? Perhaps I have exaggerated your lack of participation in the community, but unless you've been carefully deleting all your prior posts, there's no record of any interactions you've had on here in the ten years you've been a forum member. What other things should I be looking at to see your interaction with the NationStates community?

I imagine that this was very early on in Kindjal’s career (i.e. 2003). The old, slow forum nationstates.net/forum is not a thing anymore, so we can’t find posts from there. This forum is much later than you think.

As for the RMB, the RMB used to be known as the “Civil Headquarters”, and up until 2011 or so (check the RMB of an older GCR, like TRR, Laz, or a feeder) posts saved only up to 10 messages. Nothing else.

So in reality it’s more shocking if there is record from something from 2003. What would you expect for a game created to last a few months and promote a book?

[Kindjal]

I must admit, never used the "big" forum, only posted RPs in the RMB (didn't even remember that it was once not named that, but again, the WA was once the UN... so long ago...)
Anyway, I thought I had backups on my hard drive of a few of the RP we did back then (not sure I would have shared but just wanted to browse a bit and remember good old time), but it appears I only saved one agenda I wrote where I visited other nations of Groland and a love letter I wrote to another nation (we were having a contest) so yes it will be difficult for me to "prove" any involvement with the community. But I'm more concerned about not having any backup from things I expected to have...

[Island Girl Herby]

Kindjal. You don’t need to prove anything to anybody. Nor should you get a sour taste in your mouth from what anybody is saying here. There will always be naysayers who have their own ideals on who should or shouldn’t be commended or condemned. As far as I’m concerned there are only a precious few nations who have been around and as active in one aspect of the game as you, regardless of what that aspect is, and to me that is worthy of some recognition and appreciation. I voted in favor (even though I can’t stand answering issues anymore, not since I accidentally banned cars in my main nation..... which is exclusively populated by anthropomorphic cars. Still can’t figure out how I did that.)

[Superbunny]

Well now I'm glad I never checked the forum when someone last tried to get me that commendation.
As I stated earlier I did some regional RP, I tried to get some life in my region, answered some newbies' TG but yes I did not persevere for 17 years.
Saying that I refuse to recognize the community or contribute is a little extreme in my opinion.
Contributing is not easy when english is not your mother tongue and the only time I tried to write a proposal I got shut down by an admin because I didn't respect the rules, which I didn't know because I didn't spend enough Time on the forum, I get that, but he felt the need to add that since I've been playing for so long I should know better than that. Well I didn't, and I didn't learn anymore since because I felt that WA looked like a private club where I was not welcome. Today I feel the same thanks to some of your comments. Now you can keep on bashing on people who are not investing time on RP because they are struggling with it or you can try to lend a hand. And by that I don't mean commend me, I don't care, I mean maybe be a little more open minded towards other players who may choose not to play the exact same way you do, and maybe a little more friendly so you wouldn't scare people who are willing to contribute and RP...

I'm not saying you are a bad person, nor that you've done anything wrong. You are not a problem. It's this commendation that I consider to be a problem.

Doesn't matter what your intent was, you still sounded like a massive jerk and made Kindjal feel extremely unwelcome in record time. Why do you take such issue with someone getting a gameplay commendation in the gameplay part of the WA? Why do you belittle his accomplishments to nothing more than "churning out numbers"? I doubt this proposal will make anyone take stat-wise commendations any more seriously than now, but thanks for showing everyone why nobody takes the SC seriously.

The reason, I think, that this proposal is at play is because over 16 years, Kindjal has remained at the top of the WA charts in over 20 categories, while dealing with an assortment of sometimes unpredictable and always random issues. Not everyone who gets a commendation has to be a defender or the NPA's special boy. Make a new nation and see if you can match Kindjal in a year. I'll wait.

This will make a nice Repeal in a few years.

Nobody asked.

[Rex the Very Good Boy]

Arf! Arf! (Support!)

[Yokiria]

Okay. My main problem with this proposal was the lack of community involvement by Kindjal. However..

I must admit, never used the "big" forum, only posted RPs in the RMB (didn't even remember that it was once not named that, but again, the WA was once the UN... so long ago...)
Anyway, I thought I had backups on my hard drive of a few of the RP we did back then (not sure I would have shared but just wanted to browse a bit and remember good old time), but it appears I only saved one agenda I wrote where I visited other nations of Groland and a love letter I wrote to another nation (we were having a contest) so yes it will be difficult for me to "prove" any involvement with the community. But I'm more concerned about not having any backup from things I expected to have...

I imagine that this was very early on in Kindjal’s career (i.e. 2003). The old, slow forum nationstates.net/forum is not a thing anymore, so we can’t find posts from there. This forum is much later than you think.

As for the RMB, the RMB used to be known as the “Civil Headquarters”, and up until 2011 or so (check the RMB of an older GCR, like TRR, Laz, or a feeder) posts saved only up to 10 messages. Nothing else.

So in reality it’s more shocking if there is record from something from 2003. What would you expect for a game created to last a few months and promote a book?

These posts have convinced me that the lack of community involvement is a product of that involvement simply being lost to time. So, with that, and with Kindjal's refreshingly down-to-earth behavior in this thread, I'm changing my vote to FOR. I still believe the proposal leans too heavily on one singular aspect of the game, but that's a problem for if/when it faces future repeals rather than the present.

[Bormiar]

Okay. My main problem with this proposal was the lack of community involvement by Kindjal. However..

I must admit, never used the "big" forum, only posted RPs in the RMB (didn't even remember that it was once not named that, but again, the WA was once the UN... so long ago...)
Anyway, I thought I had backups on my hard drive of a few of the RP we did back then (not sure I would have shared but just wanted to browse a bit and remember good old time), but it appears I only saved one agenda I wrote where I visited other nations of Groland and a love letter I wrote to another nation (we were having a contest) so yes it will be difficult for me to "prove" any involvement with the community. But I'm more concerned about not having any backup from things I expected to have...

I imagine that this was very early on in Kindjal’s career (i.e. 2003). The old, slow forum nationstates.net/forum is not a thing anymore, so we can’t find posts from there. This forum is much later than you think.

As for the RMB, the RMB used to be known as the “Civil Headquarters”, and up until 2011 or so (check the RMB of an older GCR, like TRR, Laz, or a feeder) posts saved only up to 10 messages. Nothing else.

So in reality it’s more shocking if there is record from something from 2003. What would you expect for a game created to last a few months and promote a book?

These posts have convinced me that the lack of community involvement is a product of that involvement simply being lost to time. So, with that, and with Kindjal's refreshingly down-to-earth behavior in this thread, I'm changing my vote to FOR. I still believe the proposal leans too heavily on one singular aspect of the game, but that's a problem for if/when it faces future repeals rather than the present.

That’s sensible. Thank you.

[Ransium]

I can’t believe this resolution got Kindjal to actually post, and I’m dismayed that their first interactions with the forums community has to be through this hostile back and forth. Commendation or no Kindjal’s achievements will always have my unyielding respect.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

I'm not saying you are a bad person, nor that you've done anything wrong. You are not a problem. It's this commendation that I consider to be a problem.

Doesn't matter what your intent was, you still sounded like a massive jerk and made Kindjal feel extremely unwelcome in record time. Why do you take such issue with someone getting a gameplay commendation in the gameplay part of the WA? Why do you belittle his accomplishments to nothing more than "churning out numbers"? I doubt this proposal will make anyone take stat-wise commendations any more seriously than now, but thanks for showing everyone why nobody takes the SC seriously.

The reason, I think, that this proposal is at play is because over 16 years, Kindjal has remained at the top of the WA charts in over 20 categories, while dealing with an assortment of sometimes unpredictable and always random issues. Not everyone who gets a commendation has to be a defender or the NPA's special boy. Make a new nation and see if you can match Kindjal in a year. I'll wait.

Yeah. Voting for was definitely the right choice.

[Bormiar]

Doesn't matter what your intent was, you still sounded like a massive jerk and made Kindjal feel extremely unwelcome in record time. Why do you take such issue with someone getting a gameplay commendation in the gameplay part of the WA? Why do you belittle his accomplishments to nothing more than "churning out numbers"? I doubt this proposal will make anyone take stat-wise commendations any more seriously than now, but thanks for showing everyone why nobody takes the SC seriously.

The reason, I think, that this proposal is at play is because over 16 years, Kindjal has remained at the top of the WA charts in over 20 categories, while dealing with an assortment of sometimes unpredictable and always random issues. Not everyone who gets a commendation has to be a defender or the NPA's special boy. Make a new nation and see if you can match Kindjal in a year. I'll wait.

Yeah. Voting for was definitely the right choice.

I'm afraid someone in several years (or worse, someone around now) is going to see it, not bother reading the arguments in this thread or make up their mind before reading it, and go ahead and try and repeal it, and no one's going to care because they'll have the same initial reaction against it as many people did here.

But that may be too cynical an outlook.

[Aelyria]

Doesn't matter what your intent was, you still sounded like a massive jerk and made Kindjal feel extremely unwelcome in record time.

Excuse me? I literally said one thing about Kindjal's behavior: that they refused to recognize the broader community. I based that judgment on the fact that in ten years, they had never posted anywhere on these forums (or had deleted any posts they had created, which is essentially the same thing). I said, very clearly, "Kindjal has not interacted on the international stage in any meaningful sense." Now, of course, this doesn't consider any of their behavior from more than 10 years ago, nor does it consider whether they were particularly active in their RMB prior to their disengagement from it over a year ago. Perhaps they were incredibly active in ways now invisible to me, but if so, why does that merit a commendation now?

Again: I have absolutely no problem with Kindjal. So, since evidently that wasn't obvious from my previous post: I'm sorry I upset you, Kindjal. You are blameless.

Why do you take such issue with someone getting a gameplay commendation in the gameplay part of the WA? Why do you belittle his accomplishments to nothing more than "churning out numbers"? I doubt this proposal will make anyone take stat-wise commendations any more seriously than now, but thanks for showing everyone why nobody takes the SC seriously.

Because I don't consider these commendations to be solely gameplay oriented. It's that simple. They're international ("interregional," if you prefer). Or, to get very technical, there are two different layers of gameplay to NationStates: individual nation behavior, and interaction with the community. Commendations--and condemnations!--are part of the latter, explicitly, from every guide I can find on the subject. I find this commendation disturbingly reductive.

From what information I can gather, there have been a total of 7 "NS Stats" commendations passed. Exactly one of them was even primarily about numerical or ranking matters, and it was repealed specifically for the reasons cited. I quote: "Recognizing that, while controlling several nations with unique domestic structures is a marginally impressive accomplishment, it is one which is easily accomplished with careful preparation and diligence." Further: "Acknowledging that, while Luna Amore's defense of Free Thought is a commendable action, it is the only one present in SC#123 which may be called such."

Not everyone who gets a commendation has to be a defender or the NPA's special boy.

Yes, and? I never said otherwise.

Make a new nation and see if you can match Kindjal in a year. I'll wait.

And...what exactly does that have to do with my problems here? I didn't say anything about being able to do this myself, nor about any kind of timetable. I am specifically and exclusively saying, I don't think "played the game for 16 years and got big(gest) numbers" deserves international recognition using the thing specifically and explicitly intended for nations/regions that display community leadership and participation. It's the lack of community participation--which every commendation I can find references to some extent or another, even the above almost-purely-statistics-based one--that bothers me. Getting into an international top-ten spot does take effort. I don't think that effort alone--even if it was done for years and across multiple statistical categories--merits special international acclaim as an "inspiration." Is it impressive? Yes. Is it worthy of special international reward? I personally think the page badges ARE the reward.

So: Kindjal, I hurt you, and I apologize for that. You should be proud of your tenacity and accomplishments. I don't think those things merit this specific form of reward.

[Bormiar]

Why do you take such issue with someone getting a gameplay commendation in the gameplay part of the WA? Why do you belittle his accomplishments to nothing more than "churning out numbers"? I doubt this proposal will make anyone take stat-wise commendations any more seriously than now, but thanks for showing everyone why nobody takes the SC seriously.

Because I don't consider these commendations to be solely gameplay oriented. It's that simple. They're international ("interregional," if you prefer). Or, to get very technical, there are two different layers of gameplay to NationStates: individual nation behavior, and interaction with the community. Commendations--and condemnations!--are part of the latter, explicitly, from every guide I can find on the subject. I find this commendation disturbingly reductive.

Well I would (and have) contend that Kindjal has inspired other nations (like Pencil Sharpeners 2), and passing this serves as further inspiration.

I'm curious to know what "guide[s]" you're referring to.

From what information I can gather, there have been a total of 7 "NS Stats" commendations passed. Exactly one of them was even primarily about numerical or ranking matters, and it was repealed specifically for the reasons cited. I quote: "Recognizing that, while controlling several nations with unique domestic structures is a marginally impressive accomplishment, it is one which is easily accomplished with careful preparation and diligence." Further: "Acknowledging that, while Luna Amore's defense of Free Thought is a commendable action, it is the only one present in SC#123 which may be called such."

So the SC has been changing its opinion.

[The Palentine]

This debate is simply wonderful. It warms the very cockles of my heart to see such spite, malice, bile, and vitriol being spewed at someone who has offended the sensibilities of this wretched body by daring to be commended for something other than being a GPing stooge in the raiding/defending game. It once again proves that many members of both bodies of the Festering Snakepit are equally nasty and contemptable. I do say this it causing me some anguish as this is the second SC proposal in a row I've had to support. Normally I vote against everything this body vomits out to be voted on. Even worse, not only will I probally have to burn this rather expensive fine Yeldan suit(tm), when I leave, I'll have to see the doctor to get treated for whatever Cooties I've picked up just sitting in here. Don't y'all ever fumigate this place, or set off some bug bombs? so carry on with your debate, and try to ignore my peals of derisive laughter.

<the good but unwholesome Senator then takes a bottle of Old Crow from his desk and takes a swig straight from the bottle. Then he fires up a fine Yeldan Cigar(tm) the size of a small kosher salami and puffs contentedly while leaning back in his chair with his feet up on the desk.>

[Kindjal]

Excuse me? I literally said one thing about Kindjal's behavior: that they refused to recognize the broader community. I based that judgment on the fact that in ten years, they had never posted anywhere on these forums (or had deleted any posts they had created, which is essentially the same thing). I said, very clearly, "Kindjal has not interacted on the international stage in any meaningful sense." Now, of course, this doesn't consider any of their behavior from more than 10 years ago, nor does it consider whether they were particularly active in their RMB prior to their disengagement from it over a year ago. Perhaps they were incredibly active in ways now invisible to me, but if so, why does that merit a commendation now?

Again: I have absolutely no problem with Kindjal. So, since evidently that wasn't obvious from my previous post: I'm sorry I upset you, Kindjal. You are blameless.
[...]
So: Kindjal, I hurt you, and I apologize for that. You should be proud of your tenacity and accomplishments. I don't think those things merit this specific form of reward.

Considering commendation to be restricted to other aspects of the game than issue answering, because issue answering is already allowing to get badges and rankings as a reward is a valid argument.

On the other hand, consistently saying that I refuse to recognize the community is in my opinion rather unfair. Yes I had every opportunity to participate and did not, but that was not out of spite for the community, it simply never happened, for some reasons I already discussed. It's like saying anyone who had not been playing the game for 17 years is at fault, because (assuming they're over, said, 30) they had every opportunity to come here and play the game earlier than they did. The game existed, they could have played it so by not playing it sooner they refused to acknowledge this game and community.
Maybe I'm misinformed but I was under the impression that many players (the majority ?) do not engage with the community and simply focus on other parts of the game, issue answering, the card game, the zombie game (well ok those only playing the zombie game do not play very often ). Whenever they come to the SC they only see commendation and condemnation of people they do not know, and by restricting the SC to only a part of the gaming community, don't you fear that they might feel unwelcome to engage with said community ?

I'm not saying that this commendation will get more people to participate in the forum or in the WA, but if the SC is truly restricted to RP players, then I think it should be by a game rule and not by the will of a minority of players excluding other players (and then complaining about the lack of participation of said players).

[Yokiria]

<snip>

Your post is a gas siphon to the eyes.

[Bears Armed]

I'm afraid someone in several years (or worse, someone around now) is going to see it, not bother reading the arguments in this thread or make up their mind before reading it, and go ahead and try and repeal it, and no one's going to care because they'll have the same initial reaction against it as many people did here.

OOC
If they actually submit the repeal then i think that both you and Kindjal, if still around, would automatically be sent TGs notifying you of the fact.

[One Small Island]

Initially I didn't see it as being worthy of a commendation, but when I stopped thinking of it as 'just issue answering' and started thinking of it in the sense of it being a part of the wider game I realized how commendable it actually was. Kindjal is the most dominant player in the aspect of the game they've chosen to focus on. Koem Kab has gotten recognition for their domination of the card system, the best defenders get recognition, as do the best raiders. Even notable RPers get recognized for being great at what they do. I don't think this aspect of the game deserves to be left out because it's one of the more fundamental aspects of NationStates.

I've adjusted my vote accordingly.