[PASSED] Commend Kindjal

[Kuriko]

Pretty sure I know the answer to this, but do you have the consent of the nominee Bormiar? I found an RMB post that said Kindjal doesn't respond to telegrams often, so I'm just curious if you do and if we can see it.

[Mahrenbach]

Full support.

[Bormiar]

Pretty sure I know the answer to this, but do you have the consent of the nominee Bormiar? I found an RMB post that said Kindjal doesn't respond to telegrams often, so I'm just curious if you do and if we can see it.

Previous people have asked them and they did not seem to care.

Perhaps Sciongrad, who attempted to draft this a decade ago (as Connopolis; never submitted), received different results.

[Bormiar]

This has reached queue and will likely go to vote this major.

[Fauxia]

I’m open to arguments but I think I’m going to oppose this at the moment.

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

Kindjal isn't just "an issue answerer". She is the issue answerer. Plenty of other nations have enjoyed periods of dominance across multiple World Census categories, only to find their rankings taken by unexpected issue effects or changes to how the rankings are calculated. Some of the nations who were regularly at the top when I started have seen their collection of World #1s dwindle (The Grendels is down to just 1 World #1, Nak Nak - 0, Little Flowers - 1, Northern Borland - 5, Corsaria - 3). Kindjal however, has pretty much maintained or added to her collection (now standing at 10 World #1s - double the second best player). This is a sustained period of dominance in a core mechanic of the game which nobody else has come close to matching.

If you don't think she's worthy of a commendation, that's fine, but many of the comments (from players who don't participate in this aspect of the game, of course) are being very unfairly dismissive. As someone who knows their way around issues and rankings, I'm going to give you a couple of facts.

1. Consistently choosing the correct option is not simple. New issues are constantly being added, and old ones are being reviewed and changed (sometimes significantly)
2. Answering issues constantly for 17 years is not easy. Even if it doesn't take that much time to do on a daily basis, 17 years is still an incredibly long time.

[Jar Wattinree]

Kindjal isn't just "an issue answerer". She is the issue answerer. Plenty of other nations have enjoyed periods of dominance across multiple World Census categories, only to find their rankings taken by unexpected issue effects or changes to how the rankings are calculated. Some of the nations who were regularly at the top when I started have seen their collection of World #1s dwindle (The Grendels is down to just 1 World #1, Nak Nak - 0, Little Flowers - 1, Northern Borland - 5, Corsaria - 3). Kindjal however, has pretty much maintained or added to her collection (now standing at 10 World #1s - double the second best player). This is a sustained period of dominance in a core mechanic of the game which nobody else has come close to matching.

If you don't think she's worthy of a commendation, that's fine, but many of the comments (from players who don't participate in this aspect of the game, of course) are being very unfairly dismissive. As someone who knows their way around issues and rankings, I'm going to give you a couple of facts.

1. Consistently choosing the correct option is not simple. New issues are constantly being added, and old ones are being reviewed and changed (sometimes significantly)
2. Answering issues constantly for 17 years is not easy. Even if it doesn't take that much time to do on a daily basis, 17 years is still an incredibly long time.

I second this. I maintain two different nations to explore issues differently from my main and to be polar opposites of one another. So far, the only stat I've come close to being 1st in the World for is Welfare, and that's not even a stat I'm focusing in, and this is after almost three years of nearly consistently answering issues on that one nation. It's not easy maintaining a steady growth; minor percentile changes at the really high up levels are catastrophic and can erase weeks of careful curating of issue choices.

It's easy to pick the same options over and over again, but it is extremely easy to click on a wrong option without looking, and that is why the "Require confirmation" button exists at all. I have enabled on this nation and off on the other two, and the difference is I can sometimes miss on those nations, without even reading the issue (they've become familiar to me in the patterns I've established), while I almost never miss on this nation. If I do mess up on this nation, it's doubly hard. On those, it's a matter of remembering what nation I'm on so I don't turn the peaceful hippies into murder-happy maniacs and ruin ten different stats I've worked on for the past six months.

[Yokiria]

Beating us over the head with how amazing Kindjal is at issue-answering isn't going to change how one-dimensional this Commendation proposal is. The testimonials are nice, but I don't think anyone was contesting that Kindjal is amazing at what they do.

[Bormiar]

Beating us over the head with how amazing Kindjal is at issue-answering isn't going to change how one-dimensional this Commendation proposal is.

Certainly an escalation from your previous post, in more than just tone. The last post provided supplementary reasoning for your opinion.

As for PS2 and Jar, I think they have a right to share their opinion, just like you.

[Yokiria]

I actually have a perfect way to describe this proposal. It's the Issue-Answerers' version of Commend Arconian Empire. A target nation that has sustained excellence in their field for a ridiculously long time, and nothing else.

Beating us over the head with how amazing Kindjal is at issue-answering isn't going to change how one-dimensional this Commendation proposal is.

Certainly an escalation from your previous post, in more than just tone. The last post provided supplementary reasoning for your opinion.

Meta-commentary is how I often avoid addressing the points someone makes. I see you employ that strategy too.

Try reading this in a neutral tone
"This proposal is one-dimensional."
and responding to it please.

As for PS2 and Jar, I think they have a right to share their opinion, just like you.

That's correct.

[Bormiar]

I actually have a perfect way to describe this proposal. It's the Issue-Answerers' version of Commend Arconian Empire. A target nation that has sustained excellence in their field for a ridiculously long time, and nothing else.

Please go tell that to Kuriko.

Certainly an escalation from your previous post, in more than just tone. The last post provided supplementary reasoning for your opinion.

Meta-commentary is how I often avoid addressing the points someone makes. I see you employ that strategy too.

Try reading this in a neutral tone
"This proposal is one-dimensional."
and responding to it please.

Either I don't know what "one-dimensional" means (I double-checked the Oxford English Dictionary for all of its meanings as a courtesy), or that's too vague and I need you to elucidate. I can't see what it is that you think is dimensional, or why.

[Kuriko]

I actually have a perfect way to describe this proposal. It's the Issue-Answerers' version of Commend Arconian Empire. A target nation that has sustained excellence in their field for a ridiculously long time, and nothing else.

Please go tell that to Kuriko.

Except defending actually helps other people, whereas issues answering only affects your nation.

[Bormiar]

Please go tell that to Kuriko.

Except defending actually helps other people, whereas issues answering only affects your nation.

Alright I'm not going to go into Commend Arconian Empire, as that would be off-topic and it doesn't matter anymore.

I can't keep beating this dead horse (I don't think you even want a response and just feel it necessary to keep repeating the same thing), but you guys are going to make me, so here's a collection of the comments about that:

viewtopic.php?p=36761507#p36761507
viewtopic.php?p=36768382#p36768382
viewtopic.php?p=36814166#p36814166
viewtopic.php?p=36764632#p36764632
https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic ... t-10305667
https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic ... t-10305666
https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic ... t-10305644

Not to mention all the long discussions I've had in various discord channels.

[Kuriko]

Except defending actually helps other people, whereas issues answering only affects your nation.

Alright I'm not going to go into Commend Arconian Empire, as that would be off-topic and it doesn't matter anymore.

I can't keep beating this dead horse (I don't think you even want a response and just feel it necessary to keep repeating the same thing), but you guys are going to make me, so here's a collection of the comments about that:

viewtopic.php?p=36761507#p36761507
viewtopic.php?p=36768382#p36768382
viewtopic.php?p=36814166#p36814166
viewtopic.php?p=36764632#p36764632
https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic ... t-10305667
https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic ... t-10305666
https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic ... t-10305644

Not to mention all the long discussions I've had in various discord channels.

When I debate, Bormiar, I do it to elicit and have responses. I don't do it to not get a response.

[Fauxia]

I think I still oppose. What Kindjal has done is impressive but has no magnitude. I don’t see how she has made the game better for anyone besides herself, and therefore is unworthy of a commendation.

[Jar Wattinree]

I think I still oppose. What Kindjal has done is impressive but has no magnitude. I don’t see how she has made the game better for anyone besides herself, and therefore is unworthy of a commendation.

I wonder if inspiring others to stick with the game and aspire to the same heights after seeing her qualifies.
viewtopic.php?p=36761507#p36761507

[Bormiar]

I think I still oppose. What Kindjal has done is impressive but has no magnitude. I don’t see how she has made the game better for anyone besides herself, and therefore is unworthy of a commendation.

I wonder if inspiring others to stick with the game and aspire to the same heights after seeing her qualifies.
viewtopic.php?p=36761507#p36761507

And speaking of inspiration she clearly provides, wouldn’t Kindjal achieving commendation for hard work in issues be inspiration in and of itself?

[Excidium Planetis]

Except defending actually helps other people, whereas issues answering only affects your nation.

Defending has never helped me.

Maybe it's helped some players, but so has Kindjal's achievements, as we have direct testimony here that being consistently the best has inspired players to be better at the issues game.

Just because you yourself have not personally felt helped by Kindjal's accomplishments does not mean their accomplishments have been without effect on other players.

Edit: In fact the very fact that there is a Commendation effort and that it hasn't been the first one demonstrates that there are players out there who have been inspired by Kindjal. You don't typically write up Commendations for people you haven't been inspired by.

[WayNeacTia]

I wonder if inspiring others to stick with the game and aspire to the same heights after seeing her qualifies.
viewtopic.php?p=36761507#p36761507

And speaking of inspiration she clearly provides, wouldn’t Kindjal achieving commendation for hard work in issues be inspiration in and of itself?

No, not really. People are either going to answer issues or they aren't. Given the plethora of information available about issues, and the fact there is actually a list of all issues complete with their repercussions, makes me even less likely to vote for this. How many issues has Kindjal skipped because any answer would be detrimental to stats?

[Bormiar]

And speaking of inspiration she clearly provides, wouldn’t Kindjal achieving commendation for hard work in issues be inspiration in and of itself?

No, not really. People are either going to answer issues or they aren't. Given the plethora of information available about issues, and the fact there is actually a list of all issues complete with their repercussions, makes me even less likely to vote for this. How many issues has Kindjal skipped because any answer would be detrimental to stats?

Well, that’s just your opinion, which is completely contrary to those from people who do answer issues. Additionally, by that standard, marketing and advertising is useless, because people will “see if on shelves and buy it or they won’t”.

I made clear earlier that the list doesn’t really seem to be that helpful for more radical nations as its an average. It really doesn’t work to well for me. Additionally, Kindjal was way ahead of everyone long before any resources of that nature existed. Hope that clears that up.

As for dismissing issues, they might do that rarely, but it’s not good strategy to answer less issues.

[Santia]

Happily voted AGAINST this resolution.

[ImperialRussia]

me too

[Xeknos]

Xeknos is inclined to vote FOR. While they may not be active in RP, taking the time and doing the research to figure out what issue raises which stat, and then manage to get world first in many desirable stats is actually kind of impressive. Especially given how... unpredictable NS's stat changes are.

I recognize and respect the position that roleplaying and the more social aspects of NationStates take more work in order to accomplish goals and build lasting communities, but I think there's room for someone who has excelled at the underlying game to be commended.

[Praeceps]

If you don't think she's worthy of a commendation, that's fine, but many of the comments (from players who don't participate in this aspect of the game, of course) are being very unfairly dismissive. As someone who knows their way around issues and rankings, I'm going to give you a couple of facts.

1. Consistently choosing the correct option is not simple. New issues are constantly being added, and old ones are being reviewed and changed (sometimes significantly)
2. Answering issues constantly for 17 years is not easy. Even if it doesn't take that much time to do on a daily basis, 17 years is still an incredibly long time.

As someone else who has been around answering issues for quite some time, I'd like to add some more facts:

1. Consistently choosing the same option is easy. There are a limited number of issues, while you were occasionally encounter a new issue, a lot of the time you will have previously seen the same issue and can make the same decision.
2. Answering issues does not take much time, especially if you have a good idea of how you want your nation to be and previous experience in issues.

[Kandorith]

The Empire of Kandorith shall vote against this proposal. The general idea is not what we are opposing but seeing as the nation has a curfew in place and seems to round up clowns and forcing them into a mental institution shows a stark difference to the nation this resolution claims it to be.

Even though some feats are definitely admirable, a lot of feats of Kindjal are also questionable and therefore we are voting against the resolution.