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[DEFEATED] Liberate The Union of the Axis Powers

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Barometria
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Posts: 132
Founded: Aug 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Barometria » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:47 am

Indeed.

I fear all that has been accomplished was:

1. Bringing attention to Fascism.

2. Drawing a bunch of eyes to a small, non-offensive, non-militaristic and otherwise inconsequential Fascist Region.

3. Effectively and unintentionally promoting the spread of Fascist ideals by doing #1 and #2 above, which drew eyes to it.

And

4. Actually causing the peoples of many Nations, including some in our very own Barometria, to feel sympathetic not towards Fascism, of course, but to the Region that the SC was considering raiding for no good reason.

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Superbunny
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Founded: May 08, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Superbunny » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:24 am

"Unfortunately, even with its overwhelming support, I will be voting against this proposal, as I vote against almost all liberation proposals, with very few exceptions. I consider them to be a ridiculous level of overreach on the part of the SC."

"And tell me, what exactly is this proposal seeking to accomplish? Destroy an extremely small fascist region in some corner of the world? I am obviously against fascism and authoritarianism in general, but by the time this proposal has passed, every nation in the region will have already left. Look at their message board; everyone has already departed for more powerful regions that have likely bolstered their numbers thanks to their new refugees from this one, and they can now claim the Security Council is trying to destroy their way of life."

"And for what reason was this proposed? They tried to raid the North Pacific? Big whoop. I have no doubt that sort of thing happens all the time to every founderless region that's big enough."

"Even when this proposal passes and the SC claims a victory over fascism, it will be a failure in my eyes."
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The East won the West not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in giving native tribes fatal illness. Easterners often forget this fact; non-Easterners never do.

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Tinhampton
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Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:26 am

Last edited by Tinhampton on Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tarnik
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Postby Tarnik » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:29 am

Barometria wrote:Indeed.

I fear all that has been accomplished was:

1. Bringing attention to Fascism.

2. Drawing a bunch of eyes to a small, non-offensive, non-militaristic and otherwise inconsequential Fascist Region.

3. Effectively and unintentionally promoting the spread of Fascist ideals by doing #1 and #2 above, which drew eyes to it.

And

4. Actually causing the peoples of many Nations, including some in our very own Barometria, to feel sympathetic not towards Fascism, of course, but to the Region that the SC was considering raiding for no good reason.


Same. I've been flip flopping on my vote because of the damage this has already caused. While Fascism is abhorrent, the targeted region didn't seem like its big enough to pop up on anyone's radar. But this has given them more exposure than they could ever hope for and due to the poor wording and perceived bias of the resolution, they've managed to garner sympathy where most of the sympathetic nations would usually stamp out fascism without a second thought. They haven't even raised a defense for themselves because they didn't need to. We've spread their platform for them and now they can regroup and turn that sympathy in to followers and more candidates for their political platforms. This resolution has already done the opposite of what it hoped to achieve.

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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:35 am

The region refound was intercepted by the NPA, so I've cast my vote against.
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Lyrical International Brigade
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Postby Lyrical International Brigade » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:43 am

Nice work, NPA!
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Superbunny
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Superbunny » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:48 am

OOC: And now that the NPA has successfully taken control, the region (unless thousands of people suddenly change their votes) will be free for raiders to try and take. Neat!
-Queen Ashley Ninelives the First
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The East won the West not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in giving native tribes fatal illness. Easterners often forget this fact; non-Easterners never do.

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Praeceps
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Postby Praeceps » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:56 am

Well done to the NPA. :)

Let's bring those votes around shall we?
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The Gilded Star
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Postby The Gilded Star » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:58 am

Superbunny wrote:OOC: And now that the NPA has successfully taken control, the region (unless thousands of people suddenly change their votes) will be free for raiders to try and take. Neat!


There's still 24 hours left. If some of the major voting powers like GCRs flip their votes and advocate their region mates do the same, that will significantly reverse the course.

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Lothric-
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Founded: May 02, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Lothric- » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:28 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Lothric- wrote:Imagine if the UN had guidelines and then NATO just totally blew said guidelines off, not 'a little' blow off, but 100% just going against them.

The UN would be on NATO's ass ASAP, but as I said, the WA and its associated organizations are poorly set up and since they're managed by volunteers, they won't ever be set up properly.

They're set up perfectly fine, you're just assuming that a guide is worth far more than it is.

a guide that is set up based on the guidelines of the WA's passed laws? lmao ok, I guess all the laws of the wa don't matter..which they didn't to begin with since all it does is annoy people with telegrams :clap: :rofl:

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Eternal Cesken
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Founded: Feb 17, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Eternal Cesken » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:29 am

Barometria wrote:Indeed.

I fear all that has been accomplished was:

1. Bringing attention to Fascism.

2. Drawing a bunch of eyes to a small, non-offensive, non-militaristic and otherwise inconsequential Fascist Region.

3. Effectively and unintentionally promoting the spread of Fascist ideals by doing #1 and #2 above, which drew eyes to it.

And

4. Actually causing the peoples of many Nations, including some in our very own Barometria, to feel sympathetic not towards Fascism, of course, but to the Region that the SC was considering raiding for no good reason.


You did all these things, and I appreciate your contribution to the movement

Also all of the UOAP nations just moved to another region and let it CTE, now there's nothing to "liberate" lol

Edit: It got refounded, still nothing to "liberate" though :rofl:
Last edited by Eternal Cesken on Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:16 pm

Superbunny wrote:OOC: And now that the NPA has successfully taken control, the region (unless thousands of people suddenly change their votes) will be free for raiders to try and take. Neat!

OOC: The region is founder-passworded.
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Superbunny
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Founded: May 08, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Superbunny » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:31 pm

Marxist Germany wrote:
Superbunny wrote:OOC: And now that the NPA has successfully taken control, the region (unless thousands of people suddenly change their votes) will be free for raiders to try and take. Neat!

OOC: The region is founder-passworded.


When I made my post, it wasn't.

Even then, they got a ton of attention today and have refounded to a new, identical region.
-Queen Ashley Ninelives the First
Anthropomorphic Cat Queen of Superbunny

The East won the West not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in giving native tribes fatal illness. Easterners often forget this fact; non-Easterners never do.

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:04 pm

Lothric- wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:They're set up perfectly fine, you're just assuming that a guide is worth far more than it is.

a guide that is set up based on the guidelines of the WA's passed laws? lmao ok, I guess all the laws of the wa don't matter..which they didn't to begin with since all it does is annoy people with telegrams :clap: :rofl:

The SC has 4 rules helpfully pinned in this forum. None of them govern use of liberation in any manner relevant to this. None of the 'laws' of the GA are noted to matter, or even exist.
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Barometria
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Founded: Aug 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Barometria » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:14 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:The SC has 4 rules helpfully pinned in this forum. None of them govern use of liberation in any manner relevant to this. None of the 'laws' of the GA are noted to matter, or even exist.


Here's a quote from Ransium:

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=218040

In July 2009, a new Security Council resolution category was introduced - Liberations, as a response to demands from NationStates players for a tool to combat region destruction.


So, we were going to use a Liberation (a tool created to combat region destruction) in this matter before us literally to destroy a region. And, the proposer said, "Destroy," I didn't pick that word.

Totally makes sense.

Let's just create a new type of bill called, "Sanctioned Destruction."
Last edited by Barometria on Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Founded: Dec 17, 2003
New York Times Democracy

Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:23 pm

Barometria wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:The SC has 4 rules helpfully pinned in this forum. None of them govern use of liberation in any manner relevant to this. None of the 'laws' of the GA are noted to matter, or even exist.


Here's a quote from Ransium:

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=218040

In July 2009, a new Security Council resolution category was introduced - Liberations, as a response to demands from NationStates players for a tool to combat region destruction.


So, we were going to use a Liberation (a tool created to combat region destruction) in this matter before us literally to destroy a region. And, the proposer said, "Destroy," I didn't pick that word.

Totally makes sense.

Let's just create a new type of bill called, "Sanctioned Destruction."

And in the same thread, if you had bothered to read that far you’ll find the following:

Other types of Liberations

Preventative/Pre-emptive Liberations - these are Liberations of regions which are still under native control, but believe that they are sufficiently threatened by the prospect of region destruction that they need a Liberation of their region to deter it. These are usually controversial, as it is extremely hard to prove that a region is under threat of destruction when it is still controlled by its natives.

Liberations-to-invade - these are Liberations that are used to remove the password from a (usually founderless) region to allow it to be targeted for invasion. A proposal of this sort may be more likely to pass if disguised as a conventional 'retaliatory' or 'preventative' liberation.

Objective Liberations - these are Liberations that are passed for reasons other than protecting a region against/freeing a region from invasion. An example is the proposal "Liberate The Jedi Council" which aimed to remove the password from the aforementioned region to allow the members to return and eject a final resident to allow them to re-found the region.


Always best to get the full story.

viewtopic.php?p=4088685#p4088685
Last edited by Bhang Bhang Duc on Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Barometria
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Founded: Aug 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Barometria » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:28 pm

I did bother to read that far, thank you.

Preventative/Pre-emptive Liberations - these are Liberations of regions which are still under native control, but believe that they are sufficiently threatened by the prospect of region destruction that they need a Liberation of their region to deter it. These are usually controversial, as it is extremely hard to prove that a region is under threat of destruction when it is still controlled by its natives.


Inapplicable, we were the ones destroying it.

Liberations-to-invade - these are Liberations that are used to remove the password from a (usually founderless) region to allow it to be targeted for invasion. A proposal of this sort may be more likely to pass if disguised as a conventional 'retaliatory' or 'preventative' liberation.


There was nothing to prevent or retaliate against.

Objective Liberations - these are Liberations that are passed for reasons other than protecting a region against/freeing a region from invasion. An example is the proposal "Liberate The Jedi Council" which aimed to remove the password from the aforementioned region to allow the members to return and eject a final resident to allow them to re-found the region.


This is kind of a catch all, so whatever. You can technically use this if you really want to. It is an Objective Liberation in order to destroy a region which is, in fact, not a Liberation at all, but still is, because that's the word we are using.

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Maraculand
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Ex-Nation

Postby Maraculand » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:22 pm

Any deliberations here are fairly pointless. Many before have stated that the resolution was being proposed simply as an attempt to damage political opponents with no due process.
I've only been a member here for a short time but sees like the SC and possibly the GA are at this point a lawless trainwreck aimed to promote the agenda of the majority and force it on the minority.
Discussion or debate seems to be quite meaningless.

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Lord Dominator
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Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:39 pm

There is no due process here, this is not a court or really much of a government.
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Barometria
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Founded: Aug 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Barometria » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:44 pm

Maraculand wrote:Any deliberations here are fairly pointless. Many before have stated that the resolution was being proposed simply as an attempt to damage political opponents with no due process.
I've only been a member here for a short time but sees like the SC and possibly the GA are at this point a lawless trainwreck aimed to promote the agenda of the majority and force it on the minority.
Discussion or debate seems to be quite meaningless.


I don't wholly disagree with that. In my opinion, it's just an example of say one thing and do another fake liberalism. Like, yay, free speech! Except you, you can't talk here, we're going to do everything we can to cancel you.

That's really the whole entire problem on the left side of things, imo. If there's a flawed set of ideals, it's not enough to simply say that it is flawed and should not be tolerated, one should engage in discourse and demonstrate persuasively why the ideas are flawed. Too much work. Best just to, "Cancel," whoever is against us.

If there's someone on the fence when it comes to maybe being open to the Fascist ideologies, then a persuasive argument as to why Fascism is flawed might be enough to swing them to the other side. The platform here is fundamentally one for the exchange of ideas...it's literally a political game. On this political game, where (on occasion) actual Fascist ideas are presented as gameplay choices, the notion that people should not be able to express Fascist ideals is, on its face, ridiculous. The game itself presents Fascist choices as options.

There's nothing that the Region itself did, "Wrong," other than apparently to exist. I will say this though, if you take a certain ideal, political or otherwise, and you shove it in a corner and force them out of everywhere else...what's going to happen is that the people who they do get to subscribe to that ideal will be MORE committed than they would have before because what they will have is an echo chamber. There's not going to be anybody there on the other side to try to persuade as to why the ideas are wrong.

In the meantime, other than the lockstep left as left gets folks...you just kind of have to wonder who is next. Maybe we decide that there should not be a Region that supports Christian Conservatism. "Hey, we were able to, 'Liberate,' the Fascists, let's 'Liberate' some Christians now!" Inevitably, there will be an argument that it would never go that far, but why the hell not? If you're going to expel Fascists who (in that region) were basically keeping to themselves from the ability to have a Region...why stop there? You've already set the precedent that you can expel whomever you want to.

"Oh, but Christian Conservatism is not a Philosophy of hate and Fascism is."

Well, one could make persuasive arguments to the contrary that say Christian Conservatism, when it takes certain forms, can be quite hateful and intolerant; certainly the latter.

The argument might be that they don't believe in personal freedom, for one example.

Well, it's tough to make the argument that personal freedom is something held paramount when a person reads, understands and agrees with this resolution. It literally is designed to deny them the very thing that the concept of, 'Regions,' was designed for.

The few beliefs we (Barometria) hold (though there are many decisions that stem from those beliefs) are extremely basic. Foundational principles. A few questions that can be stripped down to almost nothing and be answered with a simple yes or no.

Free Speech: YES.

I guess that's the difference. If you can't gather and speak at a place specifically designed for people to be able to gather and speak, (within the parameters, guidelines and other rules and regulations of that place) then the speech is only conditionally free. It's almost always conditionally free, really, but this is an example of free speech being stomped on even when the conditions for that speech have been met.

In the case of NationStates, you have a Security Council that authorized Liberations and had a Founding Message about those. In a word, DEFENSE. Anything else is just a straight up raid, but call it whatever you like.

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Maraculand
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Founded: Apr 25, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Maraculand » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:46 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:There is no due process here, this is not a court or really much of a government.


I can see that. I guess back in the day when I used to play and it was called something else I imagined it was supposed to be like the real world UN.

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Tinhampton
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Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:59 pm

Barometria wrote:Maybe we decide that there should not be a Region that supports Christian Conservatism. "Hey, we were able to, 'Liberate,' the Fascists, let's 'Liberate' some Christians now!" Inevitably, there will be an argument that it would never go that far, but why the hell not?

Liberate The Conservative Christians (which was a bona-fide Liberation by yours truly) was defeated by 10,516 votes to 7,717 about two years ago - do keep up! :P
I have sent out the following telegram campaign with Praeceps' blessing, which appears to have been of at least some utility in decimating the FOR vote from 85% to 60%:
Hiya there! Since you're voting in favour of the Security Council resolution at vote, please click on this link and cast your vote AGAINST: https://www.nationstates.net/page=sc

The Union of the Axis Powers has been refounded by the staunchly anti-fascist North Pacific Army. As such, this Liberation is redundant and you should vote against it! ;)

Ta much,
New Islet (aka Tinhampton)
The Self-Administrative City of TINHAMPTON (pop. 319,372): Saffron Howard, Mayor (UCP); Alexander Smith, WA Delegate-Ambassador ~ Achievements
3 SC Resolutions + 0 co-authored:
A: SC#250, Repeal "Liberate Femdom Empire" (87%)
A: SC#251, Commend Alasdair I Frosticus (91%)
A: SC#267, Repeal "Liberate The East Pacific" (90%)

1 GA Resolution + 1 co-authored:
A: GA#484, Disease Naming Compact (54%)
C: GA#491, Rights of the employed (54%)

1 Issue:
C: #1115, One in the Arm for @@LEADER@@?

Cup of Harmony 73 CHAMPIONS

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Druing
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Founded: Jan 16, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Druing » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:08 pm

i mean turn the SC into your own personal toy for battering the things you personally don't like if you want; just be prepared to reap the consequences of it
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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:22 pm

Druing wrote:i mean turn the SC into your own personal toy for battering the things you personally don't like if you want; just be prepared to reap the consequences of it

Consequences have yet to come in the last 2 years of liberating fascist/nazi regions.

Feel free to let me know when they do (ie never).
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Druing
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Founded: Jan 16, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Druing » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:27 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:Consequences have yet to come in the last 2 years of liberating fascist/nazi regions.

Feel free to let me know when they do (ie never).


sure thing
| Incredible Inputs from Druing (Nation correlates with IRL views but there's also some banter so do what you will with that)
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