[DEFEATED] Liberate The Union of the Axis Powers

[Tarnik]

Everyone here is clearly allowing real world bias and historic track record of actual Nazis to cloud their judgement in a game that is supposed to be separated from those things. The reactionary response of "There's a fascist kill it!" is just as bad as the fascism you're claiming to be against. This is an unwarranted attack force our viewpoint on someone simply because they are different.

I could support this resolution if it were at least better worded. Right now it sounds like a middle schooler wrote it and uses a lot of emotion in a legal document. Its goals are noble, but its method of achieving them are worse than the thing they aim to destroy.

[The Gilded Star]

Everyone here is clearly allowing real world bias and historic track record of actual Nazis to cloud their judgement in a game that is supposed to be separated from those things.

Here's part of the reason why:

Please, can we stop with the LARP-ing? Raiding is nothing but a game of numbers and organization, it has no lasting effects on anyone. Playing the raiding game is just that, it is not going to damage anyone, regardless of which side is on the receiving end. As such, it is useless in the "fight against communism", just as it is useless in their fight against us. Even the bragging rights earned by a successful raid are questionable, taking raiding seriously, or even considering it to be a genuine war of ideologies is a ridiculous notion. Want to actually do some good here? Then start treating this site not as a game, but as a platform. Raiding is not a serious business, spreading real messages is. Just watch out for those low-flying forum bans.

Red emphasis mine. (note: this is not from the region being liberated, but from one of its fellow IRX alliance members)

This was found just today, enough snooping through fascist regions (or Discords) could find more of the same: many fascists use Nationstates not as a game to play, but as a social platform to recruit for real world far-right organizations. People oppose the desired end-game goals of these organizations for what should be obvious reasons, if one looks back on their historic track record as you've put it.

Can't speak for anyone but myself, but I see liberations like this as less about destroying a Nationstates region and more about dismantling the social platforms that real world fascists use to recruit from.

[Kavagrad]

I fail to see the problem.

That is because of your ideology's association with Antifa. You would be mad if us right-wingers tried to liberate or condemn every communist, socialist, or left-wing region for no reason, so why should you all go ahead and do this.

It's not every right-wing region, it's fascist regions. Why do you feel the need to express solidarity with fascists?

What I see here is a potential for the World Assembly to become chatoic, as more and more personally motivated attacks would come about.

Many right-wingers dislike NationStates for the reason of these motivated attacks against their ideologies, and this blatant abuse of the system needs to stop.

Didn't you write a Condemn FCN proposal based on your personal grudge against their Founder less than 2 weeks ago? You don't get to lecture on this topic.

[Draganisia]

As I said at the beginning of this.

If the only reason for you wanting the destruction of this region is because of ideology and nothing related to raiding besides possibly talking about it (with no actual proof to that) then I wouldn't vote for it.

That is why I am voting against this and suggest all other true defenders do the same.

Because if you truly support these sorts of "liberations" (Region Destructions) than you are truly no better than the lowest raiders like the fricken Black Hawks!

[Jakker]

Because if you truly support these sorts of "liberations" (Region Destructions) than you are truly no better than the lowest raiders like the fricken Black Hawks!

Love you too <3

Offensive Liberations are all the rage right now.

[Spode Humbled Minions]

Hello there fellow nations!
I'm Mr. Spode of the League of Conservative Nations, and NS's leading expert on the science of offensive liberations (a.k.a. I made one dispatch about it). I'm here in the forum to urge people to vote for the resolution at vote, and liberate The Union of the Axis Powers.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1102773

You might notice a discrepancy here. I was originally very much opposed to offensive liberations. The reason I changed my mind on that was partly the CCD-TNP affair, and the general maturity demonstrated by this legislative body in it's actions later that year. But there are some counterarguments to the proposal coming up in this thread which I'd like to address.
Firstly,

Everyone here is clearly allowing real world bias and historic track record of actual Nazis to cloud their judgement in a game that is supposed to be separated from those things. The reactionary response of "There's a fascist kill it!" is just as bad as the fascism you're claiming to be against. This is an unwarranted attack force our viewpoint on someone simply because they are different.

I could support this resolution if it were at least better worded. Right now it sounds like a middle schooler wrote it and uses a lot of emotion in a legal document. Its goals are noble, but its method of achieving them are worse than the thing they aim to destroy.

My issue with this argument is that it is trying to equate, no, demonize, liberations attempts in comparison to fascism on NS. There is a bit of a problem here. Like, a large bit of a problem here. Since we're evidently "clearly allowing real world bias and historic track record of actual Nazis to cloud their judgement in a game that is supposed to be separated from those things", let's take a look down memory lane to what NS fascism is best known for!

• Antisemitism
• Holocaust denial
• And endangering individuals (allegedly)

Wait. That was the same list as the one I had drawn up for the Nazis.
Well, there's a reason for that. These regions, these people, are actively trying to associate themselves with Nazis. Going down the rabbit hole of TUAP's embassies, guess how long it takes you to get to the same conspiracies that get promoted by IRL neonazis? The answer is two. How many clicks to get to antisemitism? Two. How many clicks does it take to get from this region to a region named "Anti Moderator Alliance", which isn't a name that has exactly 'aged well' in light of the alleged doxxing discussion facilitated by the fascists of NationStates? Two.

Don't say that it's historical Nazi-hunting blinding us unless you want what's happening right now to get brought up, because neither makes these people look any better.

ANyhOw......... Let's just slip and slide right into the next counterargument, this time coming from a colleague of mine...

So you’re going to liberate every passworded, founderless, fascist region?

Exactly what I was thinking.

I fail to see the problem.

That is because of your ideology's association with Antifa. You would be mad if us right-wingers tried to liberate or condemn every communist, socialist, or left-wing region for no reason, so why should you all go ahead and do this.

We've seen with the malicious bills targeted at the LCN & FCN,

S W E E T H O M E A L A B A M A

that the WA is, with the exception of some less than exceptional individuals, pretty good at distinguishing between conservatives, the right as a whole, and the failing septic tank fascists. Which makes this bill not part of a left wing plot to crush the right, but rather, all of nationstates against fascism.

Honestly, the only part of the bill I can really find issue with is its less than impressive text. In support,

Mr. Spode

[Draganisia]

And unlike this proposal my vote has nothing to do with ideology.

Would be saying the same thing even if this was against a full on Communist region.

As long as they have been peaceful with no raiding.

[Jakker]

And unlike this proposal my vote has nothing to do with ideology.

Would be saying the same thing even if this was against a full on Communist region.

As long as they have been peaceful with no raiding.

Isn't being anti-raider an ideology? And you said in your RMB post that it seems you are voting against because you are anti-raider...

[Draganisia]

Ok I'm changing my vote to FOR.

Me and Maelstrom had a short but intense conversation about it and I agree with him.

At this point feel free to ignore my earlier posts.

[Roost1513]

If Liberations are a tool used to remove real-life fascists from this site, we're doing it wrong. That's a moderator and an administrator thing - they should be banned, no question about it. Liberations are not the tools to use - if it is expected to, it is morally repugnant for the site administrators to 'gamify' removing fascists through limited actions such as liberations. It's a poor justification.

That being said, if there is no action done by those who have the site power to ban these real-life fascists, I'll leave this site.

[Gorundu]

If Liberations are a tool used to remove real-life fascists from this site, we're doing it wrong. That's a moderator and an administrator thing - they should be banned, no question about it. Liberations are not the tools to use - if it is expected to, it is morally repugnant for the site administrators to 'gamify' removing fascists through limited actions such as liberations. It's a poor justification.

That being said, if there is no action done by those who have the site power to ban these real-life fascists, I'll leave this site.

Moderators have no power to ban fascists unless they have done something against the rules. Fascism itself isn't against the rules. That was Max Barry's order.

Before you leave though, you might want to consider the fact that NationStates is the best moderated nation simulation game out there, and probably the one with the most tolerable community.

[Draganisia]

Ok the CCD propaganda telegram I just got seals my vote FOR this one.

Destroy all the fascists!

Even if we need the Black Hawks to help do it.

[Tarnik]

Hello there fellow nations!
I'm Mr. Spode of the League of Conservative Nations, and NS's leading expert on the science of offensive liberations (a.k.a. I made one dispatch about it). I'm here in the forum to urge people to vote for the resolution at vote, and liberate The Union of the Axis Powers.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1102773

You might notice a discrepancy here. I was originally very much opposed to offensive liberations. The reason I changed my mind on that was partly the CCD-TNP affair, and the general maturity demonstrated by this legislative body in it's actions later that year. But there are some counterarguments to the proposal coming up in this thread which I'd like to address.
Firstly,

Everyone here is clearly allowing real world bias and historic track record of actual Nazis to cloud their judgement in a game that is supposed to be separated from those things. The reactionary response of "There's a fascist kill it!" is just as bad as the fascism you're claiming to be against. This is an unwarranted attack force our viewpoint on someone simply because they are different.

I could support this resolution if it were at least better worded. Right now it sounds like a middle schooler wrote it and uses a lot of emotion in a legal document. Its goals are noble, but its method of achieving them are worse than the thing they aim to destroy.

My issue with this argument is that it is trying to equate, no, demonize, liberations attempts in comparison to fascism on NS. There is a bit of a problem here. Like, a large bit of a problem here. Since we're evidently "clearly allowing real world bias and historic track record of actual Nazis to cloud their judgement in a game that is supposed to be separated from those things", let's take a look down memory lane to what NS fascism is best known for!

• Antisemitism
• Holocaust denial
• And endangering individuals (allegedly)

Wait. That was the same list as the one I had drawn up for the Nazis.
Well, there's a reason for that. These regions, these people, are actively trying to associate themselves with Nazis. Going down the rabbit hole of TUAP's embassies, guess how long it takes you to get to the same conspiracies that get promoted by IRL neonazis? The answer is two. How many clicks to get to antisemitism? Two. How many clicks does it take to get from this region to a region named "Anti Moderator Alliance", which isn't a name that has exactly 'aged well' in light of the alleged doxxing discussion facilitated by the fascists of NationStates? Two.

Don't say that it's historical Nazi-hunting blinding us unless you want what's happening right now to get brought up, because neither makes these people look any better.

ANyhOw......... Let's just slip and slide right into the next counterargument, this time coming from a colleague of mine...

Exactly what I was thinking.

That is because of your ideology's association with Antifa. You would be mad if us right-wingers tried to liberate or condemn every communist, socialist, or left-wing region for no reason, so why should you all go ahead and do this.

We've seen with the malicious bills targeted at the LCN & FCN,

S W E E T H O M E A L A B A M A

that the WA is, with the exception of some less than exceptional individuals, pretty good at distinguishing between conservatives, the right as a whole, and the failing septic tank fascists. Which makes this bill not part of a left wing plot to crush the right, but rather, all of nationstates against fascism.

Honestly, the only part of the bill I can really find issue with is its less than impressive text. In support,

Mr. Spode

I have to say that you make convincing arguments and I appreciate the research and past events that you've provided, which is not something I was made aware of. The constant repetition of "But fascists!" wasn't doing much to sway my vote but you have provided compelling reasoning. I still do not agree with the wording of this and still see the danger of idly agreeing to such things but I will begrudgingly adjust my vote in light of the information you have provided.

[Draganisia]

Hello there fellow nations!
I'm Mr. Spode of the League of Conservative Nations, and NS's leading expert on the science of offensive liberations (a.k.a. I made one dispatch about it). I'm here in the forum to urge people to vote for the resolution at vote, and liberate The Union of the Axis Powers.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1102773

You might notice a discrepancy here. I was originally very much opposed to offensive liberations. The reason I changed my mind on that was partly the CCD-TNP affair, and the general maturity demonstrated by this legislative body in it's actions later that year. But there are some counterarguments to the proposal coming up in this thread which I'd like to address.
Firstly,

Everyone here is clearly allowing real world bias and historic track record of actual Nazis to cloud their judgement in a game that is supposed to be separated from those things. The reactionary response of "There's a fascist kill it!" is just as bad as the fascism you're claiming to be against. This is an unwarranted attack force our viewpoint on someone simply because they are different.

I could support this resolution if it were at least better worded. Right now it sounds like a middle schooler wrote it and uses a lot of emotion in a legal document. Its goals are noble, but its method of achieving them are worse than the thing they aim to destroy.

My issue with this argument is that it is trying to equate, no, demonize, liberations attempts in comparison to fascism on NS. There is a bit of a problem here. Like, a large bit of a problem here. Since we're evidently "clearly allowing real world bias and historic track record of actual Nazis to cloud their judgement in a game that is supposed to be separated from those things", let's take a look down memory lane to what NS fascism is best known for!

• Antisemitism
• Holocaust denial
• And endangering individuals (allegedly)

Wait. That was the same list as the one I had drawn up for the Nazis.
Well, there's a reason for that. These regions, these people, are actively trying to associate themselves with Nazis. Going down the rabbit hole of TUAP's embassies, guess how long it takes you to get to the same conspiracies that get promoted by IRL neonazis? The answer is two. How many clicks to get to antisemitism? Two. How many clicks does it take to get from this region to a region named "Anti Moderator Alliance", which isn't a name that has exactly 'aged well' in light of the alleged doxxing discussion facilitated by the fascists of NationStates? Two.

Don't say that it's historical Nazi-hunting blinding us unless you want what's happening right now to get brought up, because neither makes these people look any better.

ANyhOw......... Let's just slip and slide right into the next counterargument, this time coming from a colleague of mine...

Exactly what I was thinking.

That is because of your ideology's association with Antifa. You would be mad if us right-wingers tried to liberate or condemn every communist, socialist, or left-wing region for no reason, so why should you all go ahead and do this.

We've seen with the malicious bills targeted at the LCN & FCN,

S W E E T H O M E A L A B A M A

that the WA is, with the exception of some less than exceptional individuals, pretty good at distinguishing between conservatives, the right as a whole, and the failing septic tank fascists. Which makes this bill not part of a left wing plot to crush the right, but rather, all of nationstates against fascism.

Honestly, the only part of the bill I can really find issue with is its less than impressive text. In support,

Mr. Spode

This whole post is more or less the other reason I am voting for it now.

If you can get the guy who hates destruction liberations more than me to vote for it then you are doing something right

[Garvtopia]

Fascists do so love to claim that intolerance of fascism is as bad as fascism. I, on the other hand, love pointing out that they're at least admitting that fascism is bad.

Folks can go on about how wrong it is to target a region because of its ideology all they want, but when it comes down to it, people deserve respect by default and ideas do not. And when people espouse and attempt to spread ideas that demonize others for who they are rather than what they have done, they no longer deserve respect by default either. (Because of what they, as individuals, have done. See how that works? It's a subtle but important distinction.)

It is the moral imperative of all thinking beings to strike down fascism wherever we see it. No matter how small, and no matter how much of a waste of time someone tries to convince us it is. It took me maybe thirty seconds to read the proposal and vote in favor, and a few minutes to write this post. If that helped in any way to ensure that even an ineffectual, nearly-invisible source of fascist ideology goes away... I consider it time well spent.

[Draganisia]

Fascists do so love to claim that intolerance of fascism is as bad as fascism. I, on the other hand, love pointing out that they're at least admitting that fascism is bad.

Folks can go on about how wrong it is to target a region because of its ideology all they want, but when it comes down to it, people deserve respect by default and ideas do not. And when people espouse and attempt to spread ideas that demonize others for who they are rather than what they have done, they no longer deserve respect by default either. (Because of what they, as individuals, have done. See how that works? It's a subtle but important distinction.)

It is the moral imperative of all thinking beings to strike down fascism wherever we see it. No matter how small, and no matter how much of a waste of time someone tries to convince us it is. It took me maybe thirty seconds to read the proposal and vote in favor, and a few minutes to write this post. If that helped in any way to ensure that even an ineffectual, nearly-invisible source of fascist ideology goes away... I consider it time well spent.

While I do agree with you on that people also need to remember that full on Communism is just as bad if not worse. Especially when it was someone named Joseph Stalin leading it.

[Cornelia Li Britannia]

Fascism is definitely...a touchy topic to join NS Too, but as a WA Member now too, I should put my 2 cents in. It can be idolized or demonized, depending on how you look at it. Of course I'm not one to talk. Just like many historians, there's a supposed "Good Fascism" and then there's the "Bad Fascism." There's even notes calling it a Religious belief. The good being Democracy with ideas from Socialism bundled under a dictator. That's a very odd way to be good....but as we know, not all dictatorships are bad. They can be good. But in a game where the money is fake and we don't have to worry about being overthrown for a bad decision, it's easy to be that good dictatorship.

Now I'm babbling on 'bout something else, my main point is: Until we see this Fascism that isn't the Nazi Propoganda from the past, we can't be too careful nor can we be too ignorant. I only voted against because doing the research myself led me to find the region has basically ceased to exist themselves, they bailed. Long ago to an entirely different area. Odd for something being liberated right now. Liberating it would be a waste of time if they've fled to a new region. Why not push a more pressing issue? There's still entire raider regions out there.

[Xeknos]

Fascists do so love to claim that intolerance of fascism is as bad as fascism. I, on the other hand, love pointing out that they're at least admitting that fascism is bad.

Folks can go on about how wrong it is to target a region because of its ideology all they want, but when it comes down to it, people deserve respect by default and ideas do not. And when people espouse and attempt to spread ideas that demonize others for who they are rather than what they have done, they no longer deserve respect by default either. (Because of what they, as individuals, have done. See how that works? It's a subtle but important distinction.)

It is the moral imperative of all thinking beings to strike down fascism wherever we see it. No matter how small, and no matter how much of a waste of time someone tries to convince us it is. It took me maybe thirty seconds to read the proposal and vote in favor, and a few minutes to write this post. If that helped in any way to ensure that even an ineffectual, nearly-invisible source of fascist ideology goes away... I consider it time well spent.

This also raises the intolerance paradox.

The intolerance paradox states that any tolerant society must eventually become intolerant of intolerance, because failure to do so would result in the intolerant elements destroying the society. This is why concern trolls who say things like "so much for the tolerant left" are so blatantly wrong. It's why people who promote fascism "for the lulz" are so terribly misguided. It's why people who attempt to paint fascism as "just another opinion" know next to nothing about history.

Fascism will destroy us all, if we let it. We cannot let it. We will not let it.

So, in closing: fuck Nazis.

[Bears Armed]

OOC
I won't support any proposals like this until the SC starts making credible attempts at doing the same to 'Far Left'-themed regions as well.

[Gorundu]

OOC
I won't support any proposals like this until the SC starts making credible attempts at doing the same to 'Far Left'-themed regions as well.

What's so terrible about far-left themed regions? Calling for revolution is not the same as discriminating against minorities.

[Bears Armed]

OOC
I won't support any proposals like this until the SC starts making credible attempts at doing the same to 'Far Left'-themed regions as well.

What's so terrible about far-left themed regions? Calling for revolution is not the same as discriminating against minorities.

OOC
Oppression is oppression, and mass murder is mass murder, whether it's on 'ethnic' grounds or socio-economic ones. Would you really be happy about a region that seemed to endorse, for example, the Khmer Rouge? (Searching, l see that there are currently two regions with that party's name in theirs... but one of those has actually been seized & refounded by a group describing itself as "antifacists" who do seem opposed to the worst extremes of the Left as well...). What about regions that seem to endorse the government of the DPRK?

[Marxist Germany]

"Marxist Germany is vehemently opposed to all offensive liberations that target any ideology, unless the said region has engaged in raiding. All regions deserve the right to regional sovereignty."

[Socialist Macronesia]

That's kind of my point. This is blurring the lines between raiders and defenders.

Not really. The one thing fendas and raiders can agree on is that fascists need to be dealt with. They like to hide behind passworded regions thinking they are invincible. This shows them that they are not as well protected as they like to think they are.

So they:
A. Haven't really done anything other than the attempted TNP coup
B. Just were allies with other fascist nations

And you want to just try to take it down?

Sure, fascism is bad. Really bad. But if you are basing your decisions IC on the actions of a group in real life then you need to reconsider.

Again, for, but I would not like 'raid liberation' to become a common occurrence. Because then there is no competition for a very large group of World Assembly members to just ban all of their opponents under the guise of "ridding fascism".

[BlackLight Covenant]

Ignoring the ideological side of things, as I'm not too interested in joining the drama related to R/D gameplay built around ideologies, have these fellas ever done anything significant? Beyond participating in some failed raid which, knowing the recent turbulence of NS over it, I somehow suspect to be related to CCD.

Never heard of em before until this proposal showed up.

Considering the lack of an answer to my query so far, is it safe to presume that there is, in fact, no actual substance beyond the ideological side and some involvement in that embarrassing failure of a coup on TNP?

[Gwrachbyd]

while the nation of gwarchbyd does not support fascism being a communist nation thus ideologically opposed we feel that at this time we can not support this resolution on the grounds that your only grievance with them is that they are a fascist region.

you freely admit that they have not attempted raiding any other nation even if they have spoken of it, as such while they may be fascist they are not expansionist fascist thus not forcing their ideology on other nations. and while some seek to expand their power others simply choose to unite their people under a single ideology.

while many fascist nations have espoused racist ideology (something I personally find abhorrent) historically most fascist regimes instead follow a nationalist or imperialist ideology

third, while fascist may oppose democracy preferring a single party state or dictatorship this in and of itself is not a bad thing, and can be more efficient than those of us who rely on democracy in decision making (the headache that we in gwrachbyd must go through with almost constant votes at all levels in regards to policy making can attest to)

as such at this time we can not lend our support behind this resolution simply on the grounds that they are a "fascist region" unless evidence can be obtained which implicates them in either raiding, supporting a raid or planning a raid on other regions.

we believe in judging others by their actions and words not by where they stand on the political spectrum. for example capitalist nations my view more marxist/communist nations such as ours as evil because we believe in equitable distribution of wealth and where the burden of leadership is shared by all equally, and not by a minority ruling class who decides things for everyone under their rule. and just because one nation who follows a specific ideological bent has done abhorrent things in the past does not mean that all who follow similar ideological systems are similarly evil, thus without further evidence we can not in good conscious support this resolution at this time.