NationStates

Setting aside R/D bickering, I believe that this should really not be put to vote. Twobagger did a lot for 10KI but he left right when it could have resulted in real fruition and result in a Commendation. If he would have stayed on as Command I have no doubt that he would have eventually been considered for this. There is not enough here for an appropriate Commendation. Additionally, even with the evidence presented in the draft, there is crucial information not included which can only be gained if you could look at his TITO record on the forums.

I disagree with what Twobagger did but if this goes to a vote and its defeated it will just be one more blight on the good he did do. Don't move forward with this, is my personal opinion.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Considering how XKIers have treated him since his switch, I can only assume Twobagger has the patience of a saint having put up with such a toxic lot for so long.

And for that reason, I'm in favour of this.

OOC: He is being treated like other raiders for the most part.

Marxist Germany wrote:

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Considering how XKIers have treated him since his switch, I can only assume Twobagger has the patience of a saint having put up with such a toxic lot for so long.

And for that reason, I'm in favour of this.

OOC: He is being treated like other raiders for the most part.

Do you often call raiders "by definition a piece of shit"?

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: He is being treated like other raiders for the most part.

Do you often call raiders "by definition a piece of shit"?

...probably, yeah. This is 10000 Islands we're talking about.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: He is being treated like other raiders for the most part.

Do you often call raiders "by definition a piece of shit"?

It's 10000 Islands, is this a serious question?

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: He is being treated like other raiders for the most part.

Do you often call raiders "by definition a piece of shit"?

OOC: One comment made by one person who was having a hard time does not represent all of XKI.

Kuriko wrote:So wait, let me get this straight. You're saying that somebody who was elected Defender of the Year for one, one, year in 2019 is more deserving of a commendation than somebody who has dedicated 10 years to defending others? Than two other people who have dedicated 9 years to defending others? Than FA directors who were elected delegate in NS's largest UCR? Okay then, nice to see the definition of commendable shifted from years of dedicated service to one year of dedicated service.

According to Numero in the NS history thread, Twobagger was leading efforts to counter Lewis and Clark/Westwind and the Crimson Order back in 2008. If you can count, you know that that’s 12 years, and if you can do the math, that’s more than 9.

Marxist Germany wrote:

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Do you often call raiders "by definition a piece of shit"?

OOC: One comment made by one person who was having a hard time does not represent all of XKI.

It's pretty impactful coming from someone in the High Command. And I'm sure there's been similar or worse spoken about him cos TITO aren't exactly known for rational reactions to things.

So on balance, I feel like supporting this resolution is worth it.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Considering how XKIers have treated him since his switch, I can only assume Twobagger has the patience of a saint having put up with such a toxic lot for so long.

And for that reason, I'm in favour of this.

Can you enlighten us as to how XKI is "such a toxic lot" when we stuck to a policy we've had for 16 years that most regions would enact if someone there switched to what's considered an enemy region? If you meant Hakke's comment, he explained it in this thread.

Kuriko wrote:

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Considering how XKIers have treated him since his switch, I can only assume Twobagger has the patience of a saint having put up with such a toxic lot for so long.

And for that reason, I'm in favour of this.

Can you enlighten us as to how XKI is "such a toxic lot" when we stuck to a policy we've had for 16 years that most regions would enact if someone there switched to what's considered an enemy region? If you meant Hakke's comment, he explained it in this thread.

There is no excuse for the kind of abuse XKIers have been throwing at Twobagger. It didn't fly when people, myself included, did the same back in 2011/2012 to the likes of Spartz and Mall, and it doesn't fly now. If it's policy to act like toxic assholes to people who no longer want to play with you, then you should change such a terrible policy.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:

Kuriko wrote:So wait, let me get this straight. You're saying that somebody who was elected Defender of the Year for one, one, year in 2019 is more deserving of a commendation than somebody who has dedicated 10 years to defending others? Than two other people who have dedicated 9 years to defending others? Than FA directors who were elected delegate in NS's largest UCR? Okay then, nice to see the definition of commendable shifted from years of dedicated service to one year of dedicated service.

According to Numero in the NS history thread, Twobagger was leading efforts to counter Lewis and Clark/Westwind and the Crimson Order back in 2008. If you can count, you know that that’s 12 years, and if you can do the math, that’s more than 9.

And if you checked, Twobagger left NS in 2008/2009 and didn't return until 2018 or 2019. Might want to rethink how many years that is of service. The argument here is that he's commendable for work done in 2019 and 2019 only, so why is nothing else mentioned?

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:

Kuriko wrote:Can you enlighten us as to how XKI is "such a toxic lot" when we stuck to a policy we've had for 16 years that most regions would enact if someone there switched to what's considered an enemy region? If you meant Hakke's comment, he explained it in this thread.

There is no excuse for the kind of abuse XKIers have been throwing at Twobagger. It didn't fly when people, myself included, did the same back in 2011/2012 to the likes of Spartz and Mall, and it doesn't fly now. If it's policy to act like toxic assholes to people who no longer want to play with you, then you should change such a terrible policy.

Point out where we've been "toxic asshole". Point it out. Hakke already explained why he said what he said, and i agree there's really no excuse for it. I'm not excusing it at all. We have our policy the way it is for regional security purposes, much like how TNP has its laws and court system for regional security purposes. You can't blame us for banning somebody who changed allegiances to an enemy region and then hid it in order to stay in TITO command for another month and in the region for 3 more months when the courts in TNP would have done the same thing.

Kuriko wrote:

A Bloodred Moon wrote:According to Numero in the NS history thread, Twobagger was leading efforts to counter Lewis and Clark/Westwind and the Crimson Order back in 2008. If you can count, you know that that’s 12 years, and if you can do the math, that’s more than 9.

And if you checked, Twobagger left NS in 2008/2009 and didn't return until 2018 or 2019. Might want to rethink how many years that is of service. The argument here is that he's commendable for work done in 2019 and 2019 only, so why is nothing else mentioned?

Then how did he contribute to the refound of the Skeleton Army in 2012? If you read the proposal, you’d know his TNP work and the work in the Skeleton Army was mentioned too.

Kuriko wrote:

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:There is no excuse for the kind of abuse XKIers have been throwing at Twobagger. It didn't fly when people, myself included, did the same back in 2011/2012 to the likes of Spartz and Mall, and it doesn't fly now. If it's policy to act like toxic assholes to people who no longer want to play with you, then you should change such a terrible policy.

Point out where we've been "toxic asshole". Point it out. Hakke already explained why he said what he said, and i agree there's really no excuse for it. I'm not excusing it at all. We have our policy the way it is for regional security purposes, much like how TNP has its laws and court system for regional security purposes. You can't blame us for banning somebody who changed allegiances to an enemy region and then hid it in order to stay in TITO command for another month and in the region for 3 more months when the courts in TNP would have done the same thing.

I've not mentioned XKI banning Twobagger and I don't really have a problem with that. You're very much mistaken about TNP doing the same thing though - and it's quite clear from how XKIers have spoken about him in this topic and elsewhere that y'all are very much still tilted by him switching on you, leading to the abuse Heke and others have thrown his way. It's not acceptable.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:According to Numero in the NS history thread, Twobagger was leading efforts to counter Lewis and Clark/Westwind and the Crimson Order back in 2008. If you can count, you know that that’s 12 years, and if you can do the math, that’s more than 9.

I think Twobagger would downplay this himself, he had quite a gap in activity (albeit with a few reappearances), and didn't really emerge outside of TITO until last year. For example he didn't join Libcord until June last year and was replaced as Tactical Officer six months later, so we are mostly just talking about a noteworthy six month period - and off the top of my head there were probably five others who put in a similar level of effort over that timespan (none of which are commended, to my knowledge).

I can't speak for his contributions within TITO but there are many others who made TITO the long-time force it has been and certain names are far more prominent when I think about that from my own experience.

He was around back in the day too though, you are right. I'm also sure Twobagger would never claim to have lead efforts in TNP (that was Great Bights Mum, Flemingovia and Neasmyrna primarily, with support from myself, Sir Lans and RedKagran) but he was in the operations centre in AWP on Grub's behalf (I think he was our ambassador), as were probably another ten people.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:

Kuriko wrote:And if you checked, Twobagger left NS in 2008/2009 and didn't return until 2018 or 2019. Might want to rethink how many years that is of service. The argument here is that he's commendable for work done in 2019 and 2019 only, so why is nothing else mentioned?

Then how did he contribute to the refound of the Skeleton Army in 2012? If you read the proposal, you’d know his TNP work and the work in the Skeleton Army was mentioned too.

Do years of being inactive with the odd re-emergence every few years speak to whole years of dedication? But you're right, I missed that part. I'm just saying, if he's truly done so much and been so memorable then why are there not more operations listed or government positions? He himself must remember at least some key elements, which are oddly missing from this proposal and speak to Louis's and Numero's assessments on this being a jibe at XKI as having credibility.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Considering how XKIers have treated him since his switch, I can only assume Twobagger has the patience of a saint having put up with such a toxic lot for so long.

And for that reason, I'm in favour of this.

Having a fair bit of experience with rampant toxicity in previous regions, I can assure you that XKI is the picture of health by comparison. I think the conflation between the response from a few who felt deeply and personally misled and betrayed, as indicative of the overall tone of a region where you have spent no time, is beyond the pale. Having had the benefit of experience in both, I'd stand by XKI in a heartbeat.

THX1138 wrote:

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Considering how XKIers have treated him since his switch, I can only assume Twobagger has the patience of a saint having put up with such a toxic lot for so long.

And for that reason, I'm in favour of this.

Having a fair bit of experience with rampant toxicity in previous regions, I can assure you that XKI is the picture of health by comparison. I think the conflation between the response from a few who felt deeply and personally misled and betrayed, as indicative of the overall tone of a region where you have spent no time, is beyond the pale. Having had the benefit of experience in both, I'd stand by XKI in a heartbeat.

Person indoctrinated into the cult of 10000 Islands would stand by 10000 Islands in a heartbeat. News at 11.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:

THX1138 wrote:Having a fair bit of experience with rampant toxicity in previous regions, I can assure you that XKI is the picture of health by comparison. I think the conflation between the response from a few who felt deeply and personally misled and betrayed, as indicative of the overall tone of a region where you have spent no time, is beyond the pale. Having had the benefit of experience in both, I'd stand by XKI in a heartbeat.

Person indoctrinated into the cult of 10000 Islands would stand by 10000 Islands in a heartbeat. News at 11.

Wait, so somebody who joined XKI last year and found it a likable and good region is now "indoctrinated into the cult of 10000 Islands"? You do realize how silly that sounds, right Cormac?

Kuriko wrote:You do realize how silly that sounds, right Cormac?

Might want to copy and paste this for your next x1000 responses

THX1138 wrote:

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Considering how XKIers have treated him since his switch, I can only assume Twobagger has the patience of a saint having put up with such a toxic lot for so long.

And for that reason, I'm in favour of this.

Having a fair bit of experience with rampant toxicity in previous regions, I can assure you that XKI is the picture of health by comparison. I think the conflation between the response from a few who felt deeply and personally misled and betrayed, as indicative of the overall tone of a region where you have spent no time, is beyond the pale. Having had the benefit of experience in both, I'd stand by XKI in a heartbeat.

I died. I forget what exactly happened but this killed me. I will disagree with you though if you are calling TNP rampantly toxic.

---

Anyways, reading over this proposal and the subsequent discussion, it seems that there could be an argument made for a commendation for Twobagger, however, this specific proposal doesn't do it for me on three reasons which I think can be fixed:

First, other involvement in defending other than participation in defences/liberations. I'd suggest looking through the commendations passed by Kuriko. Overall, from what I remember, is that frequently those nominees had other involvement in their regions than just defending. I get the impression that Twobagger was more than just a soldier in TITO? That could/should be included in the commendation.

Secondly, the current proportions of the commendation seems to be quite off relative to their merits. I count four clauses directly related to defending. I count three clauses directly related to them switching sides. And three clauses related to their pursuit of happiness? While it's great that they're looking for happiness I don't really think it's worth three clauses on that... Likewise, it seems a bit confusing that Twobagger switching sides is so commendable. Like, sure, it can be remarked upon but to be worthy of such focus in the commendation seems absurd. Also, I'm super into the pursuit of happiness. Where's my commendation?

Lastly, I'll be quite frank in that it appears to be that a few of the clauses regarding Twobagger seem to be more about scoring political points against XKI using OOC. I am not a fan of making such generalizations about a region. I have never been a fan of bringing OOC into the SC however, it seems that ship has sailed with the repeal of Commend Solorni. I would prefer if there was some sort of alternative phrasing here (not sure if it's worth coming up with anything or if it'll be skipped). In absence of that, I should note that that is going to go both ways. A commendation for someone who went defender from raider may very well criticize a raider organization for the reactions of a few from turning.

Additionally, I don't believe my question on what tools Twobagger has developed? My apologies if I missed it; there was a fair amount of discussion.

For what it’s worth, in case anyone writing the proposal cared to actually improve it with non R/D content (which was the primary basis of the myopically maligned Mark, Woon, and Paffnia commendations), Twobagger was a contributor on the civilian side of things in 10000 Islands as well. Specifically, he was Mayor of Taco Island for a year - in charge of overseeing the region’s most active and beloved forum. He was also a Senator for five terms. And, all the TI threads that would contain more information about activities he planned are public, as are his Council of Nine voting records (thanks to a proposal he originally made!).

Edit: archive searching found he was also spokesperson of a historical political party, speaker of the Assembly of Nations which was 10KI’s most extensive experiment in broader deliberative government, and was TITO FC.

HumanSanity wrote:For what it’s worth, in case anyone writing the proposal cared to actually improve it with non R/D content (which was the primary basis of the myopically maligned Mark, Woon, and Paffnia commendations), Twobagger was a contributor on the civilian side of things in 10000 Islands as well. Specifically, he was Mayor of Taco Island for a year - in charge of overseeing the region’s most active and beloved forum. He was also a Senator for five terms. And, all the TI threads that would contain more information about activities he planned are public, as are his Council of Nine voting records (thanks to a proposal he originally made!).

Edit: archive searching found he was also spokesperson of a historical political party, speaker of the Assembly of Nations which was 10KI’s most extensive experiment in broader deliberative government, and was TITO FC.

Thanks for the information! I will work to incorporate that in.

The draft has been updated and the latest one is in the OP. If there are additional information to add that I was not able to access, just let me know!

While I’m neutral on Twobagger receiving a Commend, this is obviously an attempt to troll defenders by commending a raider. I have no doubt this was not made in good faith. Against.