[DEFEATED] Commend Twobagger

[Kuriko]

on your forums I distinctly remember there having been mentions of Twobagger's name in old TITO reports being scrubbed out based on his current alignment.

Not entirely sure where you saw this, as I didn't and I would have if it existed. The only place Twobaggers name was scrubbed from was our Battle Star list and lists of medals.

[Dyanderna]

on your forums I distinctly remember there having been mentions of Twobagger's name in old TITO reports being scrubbed out based on his current alignment.

Not entirely sure where you saw this, as I didn't and I would have if it existed. The only place Twobaggers name was scrubbed from was our Battle Star list and lists of medals.

To be honest with you I don't remember exactly where it was that I saw what I was referring to and that is why I didn't put in any kind of quote but with this:

The only place Twobaggers name was scrubbed from was our Battle Star list and lists of medals.

it is directly contradictory to what you said earlier:

The only thing removed to the CE only archive was Twobaggers War Record, all other records still exist within our regional forum.

[Kuriko]

Not entirely sure where you saw this, as I didn't and I would have if it existed. The only place Twobaggers name was scrubbed from was our Battle Star list and lists of medals.

To be honest with you I don't remember exactly where it was that I saw what I was referring to and that is why I didn't put in any kind of quote but with this:

The only place Twobaggers name was scrubbed from was our Battle Star list and lists of medals.

it is directly contradictory to what you said earlier:

The only thing removed to the CE only archive was Twobaggers War Record, all other records still exist within our regional forum.

The Battle Star list and Medal lists are tied to the War Records, which his still exists but in the CE accessible only archive. Not contradictory at all.

[Jakker City]

The Battle Star list and Medal lists are tied to the War Records, which his still exists but in the CE accessible only archive. Not contradictory at all.

The announcement of him being banned used the language, "his record of service has been destroyed" so it is easy to interpret that as the records are gone. If his record of military accomplishments do still exist, I would love to have them telegrammed to me to help the proposal further.

[Kuriko]

The Battle Star list and Medal lists are tied to the War Records, which his still exists but in the CE accessible only archive. Not contradictory at all.

The announcement of him being banned used the language, "his record of service has been destroyed" so it is easy to interpret that as the records are gone. If his record of military accomplishments do still exist, I would love to have them telegrammed to me to help the proposal further.

I'm sorry, but I can't help you with that. As I said, Twobaggers record was removed to the CE archives on our forum. I know that because I personally asked our CE about the status of the War Record after Twobagger switched sides. Not destroyed, just moved. Not really sure why that language was used.

[HumanSanity]

The Battle Star list and Medal lists are tied to the War Records, which his still exists but in the CE accessible only archive. Not contradictory at all.

The announcement of him being banned used the language, "his record of service has been destroyed" so it is easy to interpret that as the records are gone. If his record of military accomplishments do still exist, I would love to have them telegrammed to me to help the proposal further.

To clarify something here, Twobagger's War Record was moved. In TITO, a War Record is a sort of term of art that refers to the list of all battles the member participated in along with their medals. However, this doesn't mean every trace of Twobagger's service was destroyed - i.e. reports that documented his contributions to specific defenses/liberations, messages awarding him medals or honors, etc. Nor does the War Record reveal how he contributed to each of those missions.

You seem to have gotten the important parts off his War Record already (an approximate number of missions and a few of the more significant ones), so its disingenuous to claim your ability to research was negatively impacted by losing access to his War Record and you'll understand why, to us, it doesn't seem like an honest attempt to explain why you possibly could have written better and instead reads like an attempt to take a shot at XKI.

As to records that would be more instructive for the purposes of your proposal (e.g. mission reports, Discord/chat logs of how different people contributed to different things, etc.) you won't get access to those due to opsec, the difficulty of gathering the information, and that some of that information was lost in our Discord attack. It's also worth noting you have dismissed D2N's contributions about TB's contributions to specific missions, so start there.



Editing notes:
The Praising clause is long and should be broken up. It seems to have 4 chunks: training new defenders, new tactics, region-building, FA. Maybe use those as section instead of "here's a laundry list of things TB did that weren't a specific defense/liberation".

To speak to the bit about salaries, I assume you're referring to NS 83-1. I just want to note this system isn't in use anymore, as the updated Wage Reform Act (primarily authored and implemented by Paffnia) is in use. NS 83-1, while it remained on the books for a while, fell out of use pretty quickly based on my understanding of the record due to it not keeping standing employee lists, requiring too much coordination between different Ministers, and not being well suited to our technical currency system. It definitely was a contribution, but it wasn't the best system ever - so I'd be reserved about making it a headline of a Commend.

I also don't think recruiting on the scale TB did it is Commendable. Twobagger has sent the 78th highest number of telegrams in the current regional system. Obviously you don't have to be #1 for it to merit a clause in a Commend, but #78 seems short of "worth characters in a commend".

The meat of where you should be putting your chips in the civilian contributions TB had are his terms as a Senator, tenure as TI Mayor, and the cultural events he ran with TRR. More meat on those sections would go a long way and a lot of information about those things will be available without a forum account.

While I am personally thankful for TB's contributions to XKI, I do not see them as rising to the bar the SC normally holds for Commendations. Not to fall prey to your note that you lack the time to go through every person who deserves a commend (which is obviously reasonable) but I think Aersoldorf, Controlitia, Louisistan, Witchcraft and Sorcery, and Hakketomat at quick glance will likely also all deserve commends for the combination of their military and civilian work in XKI in various positions - as well as a handful of others who have gone above and beyond in either civilian or military realms.



Now the bit about transitioning. I don't see this as inherently commendable, I think we all agree just changing sides isn't commendable. However, you claim his essay written about the subject is Commendable. I have three somewhat interrelated issues here:

1) I think there are chunks of TB's essay that could be genuinely informative to someone looking to switch sides. However, why is it good that people feel comfortable transitioning sides? It seems to be because it would make them, the person/player, happier which seems very OOC. I'm not saying it's not valuable, I am saying it doesn't seem appropriate within the predominant IC/OOC framework for SC Commend/Condemns right now.

2) Barring that OOC justification, he transitioned from IC good (defending) to IC bad (raiding). I'm not even saying that would negate the rest of the resolution if that was a bit better developed. I am saying this is a distinct reason the transition isn't Commendable.

3) I think that large swaths (if not the majority) of the essay are efforts to paint a negative picture of XKI to pursue TBH's agenda of discrediting XKI. The essay certainly takes limited interactions and the valid feelings TB had about them and tries to make those few moments indicative of a broader picture of a region with a diversity of perspectives, its own internal dialogue about its future direction, and who's members are starting to transition to new models of understanding its moralist stance. In doing so, it's hard to see this essay as something commendable, especially when we note its bulk (not to neglect the potentially useful components about how to personally handle the choices involved in changing sides) is attempting to push a narrative about XKI that takes a variety of toxic forms, including a coordinated spamming/trolling of our RMB which you and Twobagger both participated in (I'm not trying to reopen this wound and I accept your apology, but I think it's fair to point out where this culture of XKI bashing led and how it undermines the narrative that TB has been a "model citizen" in this process). I also think that, while you deftly avoided XKI-bashing in the text of the proposal and are somewhat avoiding D2N and Kuri's accusations to the contrary, you are using what is in no small part (although not in its entirety) an anti-XKI propaganda piece as a main part of a Commend and that is why I read this proposal as having a heavily anti-XKI tilt. I think if you removed this clause and moved forward with a more fleshed out proposal about TB's contributions to XKI, you'd start to get somewhere.

[Jakker City]

The announcement of him being banned used the language, "his record of service has been destroyed" so it is easy to interpret that as the records are gone. If his record of military accomplishments do still exist, I would love to have them telegrammed to me to help the proposal further.

I'm sorry, but I can't help you with that. As I said, Twobaggers record was removed to the CE archives on our forum. I know that because I personally asked our CE about the status of the War Record after Twobagger switched sides. Not destroyed, just moved. Not really sure why that language was used.

Is there a reason why you are unable to help? I imagine if you asked for the records they would be given and while I recognize that some military records might be regarded as confidential, it is common practice for most military records of organizations to be basically public record. If there are questions about specifics, it would be helpful to have direct source evidence for this. It is also always helpful to retain and share as much NS history as possible.

[Kuriko]

I'm sorry, but I can't help you with that. As I said, Twobaggers record was removed to the CE archives on our forum. I know that because I personally asked our CE about the status of the War Record after Twobagger switched sides. Not destroyed, just moved. Not really sure why that language was used.

Is there a reason why you are unable to help? I imagine if you asked for the records they would be given and while I recognize that some military records might be regarded as confidential, it is common practice for most military records of organizations to be basically public record. If there are questions about specifics, it would be helpful to have direct source evidence for this. It is also always helpful to retain and share as much NS history as possible.

TITO records are not, nor will they ever be, publicly accessible. It's also not common practice for those records to be accessible, so I don't know why you're trying to push that? Our policies have been the same for the last 17 years. You have your answer, and Twobagger himself should be able to tell you everything you need to know about his service in XKI.

[Jakker City]

You seem to have gotten the important parts off his War Record already (an approximate number of missions and a few of the more significant ones), so its disingenuous to claim your ability to research was negatively impacted by losing access to his War Record and you'll understand why, to us, it doesn't seem like an honest attempt to explain why you possibly could have written better and instead reads like an attempt to take a shot at XKI.

TITO records are not, nor will they ever be, publicly accessible. It's also not common practice for those records to be accessible, so I don't know why you're trying to push that? Our policies have been the same for the last 17 years. You have your answer, and Twobagger himself should be able to tell you everything you need to know about his service in XKI.

I have spoken to Twobagger about getting specifics which is how the details of this proposal was able to be constructed. However, he was not able to remember everything which is understandable. So naturally there are some pieces of history missing there and the accuracy of some of the clauses were called into question. Therefore, I don't see how it would be disingenuous to simply seek additional insight if it exists.

As to records that would be more instructive for the purposes of your proposal (e.g. mission reports, Discord/chat logs of how different people contributed to different things, etc.) you won't get access to those due to opsec, the difficulty of gathering the information, and that some of that information was lost in our Discord attack. It's also worth noting you have dismissed D2N's contributions about TB's contributions to specific missions, so start there.

It is hard to start with what a lot of Numero said because several of his statements counter what I put in there, so again it makes sense that I would hope to see the actual records to verify. I also did not dismiss anything and said that I would look into what he said which is what I am doing. I simply trying to get things as accurate as possible and navigating these various perspectives.

I also take your notes into account and look through things. As for those other players you have noted, I do not know them very well and can't really speak to whether or not they are commendable. You sound like you have insight there, so feel free to rock out those drafts.

[HumanSanity]

I have spoken to Twobagger about getting specifics which is how the details of this proposal was able to be constructed. However, he was not able to remember everything which is understandable. So naturally there are some pieces of history missing there and the accuracy of some of the clauses were called into question. Therefore, I don't see how it would be disingenuous to simply seek additional insight if it exists.

Maybe the part I explained about what was removed isn't clear. It's literally a list of operations. It doesn't contain the information you're looking to flesh out these clauses about who did what or Twobagger's role in an operation, just that there was an operation.

As a result, I take particular objection to the phrasing in the "Highlighting" clause which says "were removed by their previous regional affiliates and allies" - the records you are looking for haven't gone anywhere, but they are related to details of operations and I think you'll understand why we're not eager to share. This would also seem to be the same reason you're not going to get records NuCa is referencing. I realize that's frustrating, but it's not about quality of record-keeping.

This is why I think this clause is part of an effort to target XKI specifically, as are other parts as I already explained. It attempts to take the moving of Twobagger's War Record, distort it to a narrative that it has hindered your ability to complete the resolution when this is not the case, and make it an attack on the record keeping prowess of the region. I will argue our record keeping is actually quite good and if you need help navigating or reaching records about Twobagger's civil service as a Senator or Mayor, let me know.

I also did not dismiss anything and said that I would look into what he said which is what I am doing. I simply trying to get things as accurate as possible and navigating these various perspectives.

I realize writing a resolution is challenging and apologize if "dismissed" was too strong a phrase in a read of your interaction with NuCa.

As for those other players you have noted, I do not know them very well and can't really speak to whether or not they are commendable. You sound like you have insight there, so feel free to rock out those drafts.

Maybe I'll think about it, although when an XKIer writes a commend of another XKIer, the record is pretty good on people being less than celebratory about it and I'm sensing the political climate is a bit saturated on those.

Of course, my point wasn't that these people should be Commended (although I think they're all awesome). My point was if Twobagger gets Commended, we're opening the floodgates quite a lot. I'm not convinced Twobagger is Commendable.

[Jakker City]

I have spoken to Twobagger about getting specifics which is how the details of this proposal was able to be constructed. However, he was not able to remember everything which is understandable. So naturally there are some pieces of history missing there and the accuracy of some of the clauses were called into question. Therefore, I don't see how it would be disingenuous to simply seek additional insight if it exists.

Maybe the part I explained about what was removed isn't clear. It's literally a list of operations. It doesn't contain the information you're looking to flesh out these clauses about who did what or Twobagger's role in an operation, just that there was an operation.

As a result, I take particular objection to the phrasing in the "Highlighting" clause which says "were removed by their previous regional affiliates and allies" - the records you are looking for haven't gone anywhere, but they are related to details of operations and I think you'll understand why we're not eager to share. This would also seem to be the same reason you're not going to get records NuCa is referencing. I realize that's frustrating, but it's not about quality of record-keeping.

This is why I think this clause is part of an effort to target XKI specifically, as are other parts as I already explained. It attempts to take the moving of Twobagger's War Record, distort it to a narrative that it has hindered your ability to complete the resolution when this is not the case, and make it an attack on the record keeping prowess of the region. I will argue our record keeping is actually quite good and if you need help navigating or reaching records about Twobagger's civil service as a Senator or Mayor, let me know.

That clause was written a while ago when I was under the impression, among other things, that the records were destroyed since that was literally the language used by Markanite. This information that the records were simply moved is totally new that was just mentioned today. I will process how best to articulate things. So no that was not an effort to target XKI, it was an attempt to simply convey what happened. Even with the information simply being moved, they are hidden and inaccessible, so in many ways, this proposal serves as one of the only documents that someone can examine to learn of Twobagger's impact on the game. I see that as important.

[HumanSanity]

That clause was written a while ago when I was under the impression, among other things, that the records were destroyed since that was literally the language used by Markanite. This information that the records were simply moved is totally new that was just mentioned today. I will process how best to articulate things. So no that was not an effort to target XKI, it was an attempt to simply convey what happened. Even with the information simply being moved, they are hidden and inaccessible, so in many ways, this proposal serves as one of the only documents that someone can examine to learn of Twobagger's impact on the game. I see that as important.

Fair enough. I'd appreciate it if the clause was removed on the next draft, especially given the discussion here I apologize if my comment was jumping down your throat before you had the chance to amend the language.

[Refuge Isle]

Maybe I'll think about it, although when an XKIer writes a commend of another XKIer, the record is pretty good on people being less than celebratory about it and I'm sensing the political climate is a bit saturated on those.

Just my two cents, but it's always been my perspective that the people who are best in a position to write a C&C of another player are ones who have some knowledge of what the heck that player did or otherwise had some familiarity with the subject. Not necessarily with region C&Cs, I think it's pretty impossible to be distanced enough to not directly profit from that, given that's where they live. But I don't think I'm in the best position to write a commend of a defender, and I'm not overly surprised or disappointed when one appears. I remember a discussion regarding Commend Markanite, but it was ultimately well received at vote

[Jakker City]

Alright so I have made several edits to make sure to word things as accurately as possible. I took all feedback into account and worked to use what resources I had. Just to point out a few things:

In regards to the proposal that eventually led to the Wage Reform Act, it seems like Grub would not allow something better to be written. So while the original proposal was for a system that is no longer in place, I think there is value in developing a system that served as a foundation and set the stage for for the updated act.

As for the recruitment piece, this was done before the current regional telegram system was put in place and obvious things were harder back then, so I think efforts mean more even if numbers do not match today's levels.

Overall, the language has been edited to remove any suspicion that this proposal is intended to do anything else but promote Twobagger's achievements.

[HumanSanity]

Overall, the language has been edited to remove any suspicion that this proposal is intended to do anything else but promote Twobagger's achievements.

I didn't save a copy of the proposal but the final three clauses are (to my eye) unedited and those were the clauses that made me think the "proposal is intended to do anything else but promote Twobagger's achievements". Even if they were edited, they did not ameliorate my concerns.

I expressed this clearly here:

Now the bit about transitioning. I don't see this as inherently commendable, I think we all agree just changing sides isn't commendable. However, you claim his essay written about the subject is Commendable. I have three somewhat interrelated issues here:

1) I think there are chunks of TB's essay that could be genuinely informative to someone looking to switch sides. However, why is it good that people feel comfortable transitioning sides? It seems to be because it would make them, the person/player, happier which seems very OOC. I'm not saying it's not valuable, I am saying it doesn't seem appropriate within the predominant IC/OOC framework for SC Commend/Condemns right now.

2) Barring that OOC justification, he transitioned from IC good (defending) to IC bad (raiding). I'm not even saying that would negate the rest of the resolution if that was a bit better developed. I am saying this is a distinct reason the transition isn't Commendable.

3) I think that large swaths (if not the majority) of the essay are efforts to paint a negative picture of XKI to pursue TBH's agenda of discrediting XKI. The essay certainly takes limited interactions and the valid feelings TB had about them and tries to make those few moments indicative of a broader picture of a region with a diversity of perspectives, its own internal dialogue about its future direction, and who's members are starting to transition to new models of understanding its moralist stance. In doing so, it's hard to see this essay as something commendable, especially when we note its bulk (not to neglect the potentially useful components about how to personally handle the choices involved in changing sides) is attempting to push a narrative about XKI that takes a variety of toxic forms, including a coordinated spamming/trolling of our RMB which you and Twobagger both participated in (I'm not trying to reopen this wound and I accept your apology, but I think it's fair to point out where this culture of XKI bashing led and how it undermines the narrative that TB has been a "model citizen" in this process). I also think that, while you deftly avoided XKI-bashing in the text of the proposal and are somewhat avoiding D2N and Kuri's accusations to the contrary, you are using what is in no small part (although not in its entirety) an anti-XKI propaganda piece as a main part of a Commend and that is why I read this proposal as having a heavily anti-XKI tilt. I think if you removed this clause and moved forward with a more fleshed out proposal about TB's contributions to XKI, you'd start to get somewhere.

Thoughts?

Smaller notes (which I hope don't result in ignoring my broader point):
The first bullet point of the Acknowledging clause lists a "Chef Executive". I personally like this rebrand and think we should give it due consideration, but it's not accurate

I still think, even if I didn't take issue with the clauses I've specified, I wouldn't be voting for this because the writing on the Mayor, Senator, and Emissary portions is weak and needs more fleshed out research.

[Jakker City]

Overall, the language has been edited to remove any suspicion that this proposal is intended to do anything else but promote Twobagger's achievements.

I didn't save a copy of the proposal but the final three clauses are (to my eye) unedited and those were the clauses that made me think the "proposal is intended to do anything else but promote Twobagger's achievements". Even if they were edited, they did not ameliorate my concerns.

I expressed this clearly here:

Now the bit about transitioning. I don't see this as inherently commendable, I think we all agree just changing sides isn't commendable. However, you claim his essay written about the subject is Commendable. I have three somewhat interrelated issues here:

1) I think there are chunks of TB's essay that could be genuinely informative to someone looking to switch sides. However, why is it good that people feel comfortable transitioning sides? It seems to be because it would make them, the person/player, happier which seems very OOC. I'm not saying it's not valuable, I am saying it doesn't seem appropriate within the predominant IC/OOC framework for SC Commend/Condemns right now.

2) Barring that OOC justification, he transitioned from IC good (defending) to IC bad (raiding). I'm not even saying that would negate the rest of the resolution if that was a bit better developed. I am saying this is a distinct reason the transition isn't Commendable.

3) I think that large swaths (if not the majority) of the essay are efforts to paint a negative picture of XKI to pursue TBH's agenda of discrediting XKI. The essay certainly takes limited interactions and the valid feelings TB had about them and tries to make those few moments indicative of a broader picture of a region with a diversity of perspectives, its own internal dialogue about its future direction, and who's members are starting to transition to new models of understanding its moralist stance. In doing so, it's hard to see this essay as something commendable, especially when we note its bulk (not to neglect the potentially useful components about how to personally handle the choices involved in changing sides) is attempting to push a narrative about XKI that takes a variety of toxic forms, including a coordinated spamming/trolling of our RMB which you and Twobagger both participated in (I'm not trying to reopen this wound and I accept your apology, but I think it's fair to point out where this culture of XKI bashing led and how it undermines the narrative that TB has been a "model citizen" in this process). I also think that, while you deftly avoided XKI-bashing in the text of the proposal and are somewhat avoiding D2N and Kuri's accusations to the contrary, you are using what is in no small part (although not in its entirety) an anti-XKI propaganda piece as a main part of a Commend and that is why I read this proposal as having a heavily anti-XKI tilt. I think if you removed this clause and moved forward with a more fleshed out proposal about TB's contributions to XKI, you'd start to get somewhere.

Thoughts?

Smaller notes (which I hope don't result in ignoring my broader point):
The first bullet point of the Acknowledging clause lists a "Chef Executive". I personally like this rebrand and think we should give it due consideration, but it's not accurate

I still think, even if I didn't take issue with the clauses I've specified, I wouldn't be voting for this because the writing on the Mayor, Senator, and Emissary portions is weak and needs more fleshed out research.

In regards to the last three clauses, the only thing I edited there was removing an adjective to describe the backlash. Previously it was "a lot of" and "exaggerated" which was then changed to "undeserved." While I think all of those words were justified, I think simply saying "backlash" was the best I could do to still depict the events without coming off like a specific opinion of those events were being conveyed which may take away focus from the point of the clause which is to articulate that Twobagger largely handled it well given the circumstances.

In regards to the switching, I would say that the SC has always combined elements of IC and OOC. Even if you look outside of the player component of switching which plays a major role, there is a lot of IC frames that one can take to articulate why a nation having knowledge and advice to take into account when considering a switch is important and can help one doing so. From an IC standpoint, a nation thrives when its government maintains activity, is building connections with other nations that share similar values and interests, etc. It is likely that if a nation will like to switch alliances, but do not feel able to do so, it is likely that they will slowly stop engaging in NationStates. I have seen that happen. One could also go the IC route that switching alliances has improved/modernized the nation. All of those IC frameworks can potentially be interpreted as the proposal taking a side or something and given the sensitivity here, I think the proposal currently articulates things in a way that does not take a side but still shares the importance.

As for the switch from defending to raiding, the proposal does not say anything about the switch itself being commendable. It is about the process and the sharing of insight to help future nations going through the process which stands regardless.

As for the essay itself, I see nothing in there that bashes XKI, so you will need to enlighten me there. I see an essay that articulates the various dynamics and considerations that Twobagger had to take into account. The only thing that could potentially be considered "discrediting XKI" would be the few sentences that articulate the response that some members of XKI had to the switch. I don't see anything there that is incorrect and is worded in a way to share what happened without going after anyone. I recognize that it is not fun when a former member switches and then discusses dynamics about what led to that. I have experienced that first-hand as well and obviously if someone decides to switch or leave the region/game, it means that there are things going on that they are not happy with. At no point does Twobagger say to not join XKI or that XKI is bad. The essay is focused on highlighting the dynamics he dealt with and various things to consider in the process of switching. It has been well-praised by many as far as I can see. I stand by that the essay is a commendable act.

I will do what I can to find additional information about the pieces about Mayor, Senator, etc.

[Morover]

Observing that even though Twobagger received backlash for this decision by their former region, the nominee still largely accepted these consequences with grace and integrity,

This adds nothing to the commendation. Even the next clause adds minimal amount to the commendation. I don't know Twobagger well enough to make comment on their commendability, though this draft does make a somewhat sufficient case, but these two clauses read as "they were also a raider and I want to include that." The "affirming" clause also falls victim to this a bit, but less so - I'd suggest rewording it even if it's not necessary.

For the record, it's not that I think mentioning that somebody is a raider in a commendation is bad, it's that I think it's bad when it adds essentially no content or depth to the proposal beyond the fact that they were once a defender and now are a raider. Saying that they are "a model nation for navigating the challenge of changing alliances" may very well hold merit, but it reads literally as just words to make it sound like it should be mentioned. Explain why this case is exceptionally deserving, or remove the references altogether.

EDIT: For the record, I think that it saying "undeserved" was out-of-place, and that's why I initially glanced at it. Glad to see that changed, at least.

[Jakker City]

Observing that even though Twobagger received backlash for this decision by their former region, the nominee still largely accepted these consequences with grace and integrity,

This adds nothing to the commendation. Even the next clause adds minimal amount to the commendation. I don't know Twobagger well enough to make comment on their commendability, though this draft does make a somewhat sufficient case, but these two clauses read as "they were also a raider and I want to include that." The "affirming" clause also falls victim to this a bit, but less so - I'd suggest rewording it even if it's not necessary.

For the record, it's not that I think mentioning that somebody is a raider in a commendation is bad, it's that I think it's bad when it adds essentially no content or depth to the proposal beyond the fact that they were once a defender and now are a raider. Saying that they are "a model nation for navigating the challenge of changing alliances" may very well hold merit, but it reads literally as just words to make it sound like it should be mentioned. Explain why this case is exceptionally deserving, or remove the references altogether.

EDIT: For the record, I think that it saying "undeserved" was out-of-place, and that's why I initially glanced at it. Glad to see that changed, at least.

There is no mention of raiding or that Twobagger is a raider. I am not sure how to add detail to these clauses and explain why it is commendable that Twobagger handled the switch fairly well without explaining what he had to deal with and obviously then I will be accused of the proposal trying to go against XKI. Do you have any suggestions there?

[Morover]

This adds nothing to the commendation. Even the next clause adds minimal amount to the commendation. I don't know Twobagger well enough to make comment on their commendability, though this draft does make a somewhat sufficient case, but these two clauses read as "they were also a raider and I want to include that." The "affirming" clause also falls victim to this a bit, but less so - I'd suggest rewording it even if it's not necessary.

For the record, it's not that I think mentioning that somebody is a raider in a commendation is bad, it's that I think it's bad when it adds essentially no content or depth to the proposal beyond the fact that they were once a defender and now are a raider. Saying that they are "a model nation for navigating the challenge of changing alliances" may very well hold merit, but it reads literally as just words to make it sound like it should be mentioned. Explain why this case is exceptionally deserving, or remove the references altogether.

EDIT: For the record, I think that it saying "undeserved" was out-of-place, and that's why I initially glanced at it. Glad to see that changed, at least.

There is no mention of raiding or that Twobagger is a raider. I am not sure how to add detail to these clauses and explain why it is commendable that Twobagger handled the switch fairly well without explaining what he had to deal with and obviously then I will be accused of the proposal trying to go against XKI. Do you have any suggestions there?

Are the references to "regional alliances" not XKI -> TBH/whichever raider org they went to (I won't pretend to have super extensive GP knowledge)? Because, while that may not explicitly be "going from defender to raider", I don't think it's any secret what each region is associated with. Switching regions is not commendable, and that's really the only thing that the final two clauses bring to the table. Again, my recommendation is to take those clauses out and end it some other way, or at least include some sort of commendable action in there.

EDIT: And for the record, I have no opinion one way or another about this "trolling" XKI or anything. I think political stunts like that are stupid and if that was the intention then this should definitely go unto a more upfront author, but I frankly don't have the information about the R/D dynamic that would lead towards an opinion on whether or not that's what this is.

[Jakker City]

There is no mention of raiding or that Twobagger is a raider. I am not sure how to add detail to these clauses and explain why it is commendable that Twobagger handled the switch fairly well without explaining what he had to deal with and obviously then I will be accused of the proposal trying to go against XKI. Do you have any suggestions there?

Are the references to "regional alliances" not XKI -> TBH/whichever raider org they went to (I won't pretend to have super extensive GP knowledge)? Because, while that may not explicitly be "going from defender to raider", I don't think it's any secret what each region is associated with. Switching regions is not commendable, and that's really the only thing that the final two clauses bring to the table. Again, my recommendation is to take those clauses out and end it some other way, or at least include some sort of commendable action in there.

EDIT: And for the record, I have no opinion one way or another about this "trolling" XKI or anything. I think political stunts like that are stupid and if that was the intention then this should definitely go unto a more upfront author, but I frankly don't have the information about the R/D dynamic that would lead towards an opinion on whether or not that's what this is.

The last clause is meant to serve as a summation to the entire proposal. I feel like if that was removed, the writing would be a bit abrupt to right into the Hereby clause no?

[Morover]

Are the references to "regional alliances" not XKI -> TBH/whichever raider org they went to (I won't pretend to have super extensive GP knowledge)? Because, while that may not explicitly be "going from defender to raider", I don't think it's any secret what each region is associated with. Switching regions is not commendable, and that's really the only thing that the final two clauses bring to the table. Again, my recommendation is to take those clauses out and end it some other way, or at least include some sort of commendable action in there.

EDIT: And for the record, I have no opinion one way or another about this "trolling" XKI or anything. I think political stunts like that are stupid and if that was the intention then this should definitely go unto a more upfront author, but I frankly don't have the information about the R/D dynamic that would lead towards an opinion on whether or not that's what this is.

The last clause is meant to serve as a summation to the entire proposal. I feel like if that was removed, the writing would be a bit abrupt to right into the Hereby clause no?

In fairness, I said “and end it in some other way”, which was supposed to address that. I can type something up when I get home as an example. You can even still acknowledge the controversy that came alongside the switch, if I’m understanding the situation correctly, but I don’t think it’s handled properly here.

[HumanSanity]

In regards to the last three clauses, the only thing I edited there was removing an adjective to describe the backlash. Previously it was "a lot of" and "exaggerated" which was then changed to "undeserved." While I think all of those words were justified, I think simply saying "backlash" was the best I could do to still depict the events without coming off like a specific opinion of those events were being conveyed which may take away focus from the point of the clause which is to articulate that Twobagger largely handled it well given the circumstances.

First of all, regardless of what word you use, this isn't Commendable. Switching itself is not a positive action Twobagger took. It's a choice that was made, for better or worse.

Second, I do not agree with the characterization it was "handled well given the circumstances". Even if the resolution itself is not pushing this narrative, you certainly are.

Certain parts of this were handled professionally and by the book. Twobagger informed XKI's leaders of his intent to switch, moved to TRR, waited a few hours, and then moved his nation to an ongoing TBH pile and posted in the GP forum. This is fine.

Some things that were not handling it well:

• Voting for himself as Defender of the Year from his alternate TBH account he was using to moonlight in TBH tag runs at the time. An award which, if/when he won it, he intended to use as the launching point to announce his side switch.
• Cross-endorsing only TITO Members while they were piling in an already liberated region to gain influence to kick raiders immediately after Twobagger's switch, with an understanding that emotions were running high at the time and such a move would likely not be met kindly.
• Spamming 10000 Islands itself with embassy requests from TBH-tagged regions.
• Encouraging, participating in, and borderline leading the coordinated spamming and trolling of XKI's RMB a few months ago
• Occasionally tagging with TBH in the interim between stepping down as TITO Tactical Officer and leaving TITO.

I don't think these actions are "justified" or "justifiable", really. You can say all you want about how XKIers treated TB after the switch, but TBH TB* was not a model individual through the whole process. This also undercuts the argument that, by virtue of being an example, he is Commendable.

* wanted an excuse to say this after I came up with it this morning

Even if you look outside of the player component of switching which plays a major role, there is a lot of IC frames that one can take to articulate why a nation having knowledge and advice to take into account when considering a switch is important and can help one doing so. From an IC standpoint, a nation thrives when its government maintains activity, is building connections with other nations that share similar values and interests, etc. It is likely that if a nation will like to switch alliances, but do not feel able to do so, it is likely that they will slowly stop engaging in NationStates. I have seen that happen. One could also go the IC route that switching alliances has improved/modernized the nation. All of those IC frameworks can potentially be interpreted as the proposal taking a side or something and given the sensitivity here, I think the proposal currently articulates things in a way that does not take a side but still shares the importance.

A nation thriving or building activity for itself is not Commendable, it's expected.
Modernizing one's own nation is also not Commendable. Also, switch of sides is not modernization, it's picking a different alliance.
I just don't think these frames you isolate make much sense.

As for the essay itself, I see nothing in there that bashes XKI, so you will need to enlighten me there. I see an essay that articulates the various dynamics and considerations that Twobagger had to take into account. The only thing that could potentially be considered "discrediting XKI" would be the few sentences that articulate the response that some members of XKI had to the switch. I don't see anything there that is incorrect and is worded in a way to share what happened without going after anyone. I recognize that it is not fun when a former member switches and then discusses dynamics about what led to that. I have experienced that first-hand as well and obviously if someone decides to switch or leave the region/game, it means that there are things going on that they are not happy with. At no point does Twobagger say to not join XKI or that XKI is bad. The essay is focused on highlighting the dynamics he dealt with and various things to consider in the process of switching. It has been well-praised by many as far as I can see. I stand by that the essay is a commendable act.

The essay takes statements by a few Islanders, many of whom publicly and/or privately apologized for their comments, and attempts to create a broader critique of XKI as a conservative, black-and-white, monolithic, simplistic, bullying region which does not respect or celebrate its own members and deliberately ignores XKI's own internal political process of negotiation and change. It does not lend credit to those in XKI who approached the situation with maturity and grace. It does not take the efforts by many XKIers to apologize for ways they hurt Twobagger in the process. Instead, it deliberately forwards a certain politically convenient narrative for TB(H).

As someone who has fought hard, at personal cost, for many years for reform in XKI on many levels and in many areas, I personally object to a narrative that paves over disagreements between people in our region in favor of an unchanging rigidly moralist monolith. This is inaccurate. However it does make a better narrative for an effort to bash XKI.

I've spoilered a few quotes where I think there is a clear anti-XKI/TITO message/narrative which is built throughout the course of the essay.

After all, I was pretty young, and in a region full of people who were also either fairly young or - as I was at the time - fairly conservative.

XKI was once a politically conservative region (in an RL sense). Today, it's really not and connecting its moralist stance to political conservativism is inaccurate.

The moralism that resonated with me when I was younger felt cruel and uncaring all these years later. The contrast became especially stark after reading through old TITO threads regarding leadership appointments. Back then, I’d have chuckled at the suggestion that hating raiders made someone especially well-qualified for TITO leadership, or even made a similar suggestion myself. Now, it just seemed harsh. Cold. Dehumanizing, even. I wasn’t completely sure whether the region had changed, or whether I had. All I knew was that I needed out.

This takes a few comments made by select individuals (it's unclear based on the essay, but possibly many years ago) and reads them as the perspective of an entire region. It also reads into them a "dehumanizing" lens that I don't think is fair.

I’d wavered a little at first, but the reaction I received from the XKI community quickly confirmed that my choice to leave was the only healthy choice. Prominent members of the community would proceed to call me names, discount the time and effort I’d spent building up their region, and spread falsehoods about my real life circumstances to try and gain an in-character advantage.

I don't think anyone said Twobagger was not invested in XKI.
People who called Twobagger names apologized and explained their motivations and were rebuffed.
Even then, they represent a segment of a diverse community.
Lastly, XKI's Delegate apologized to Twobagger for people misrepresenting his RL circumstances on behalf of the region itself. There was also an understandable confusion: we were told Twobagger was too busy to attend update, which is obviously OK, but then also that he was Julianistan-ing. There was a confusion: his RL must not be that busy if he can Julianistan. Of course, there's a middle ground: attending update sometimes but not always and still be going through personal hardship, a middle ground that was lost in some of the confusion - hence the apology.
Twobagger's essay elides this nuance to craft a narrative.

I was obviously aware of their dogmatic stances, but expected perhaps a little more patience and understanding from members who were enjoying the fruits of the community I’d helped to build. However, the more I thought about it, the less I cared. I’d left a community that seemed to value ideology over people for one that values and respects the time and efforts of all of its members.

XKI makes ample efforts to respect the time and efforts of all its members. A culture and focus Twobagger even admitted to (even celebrated) in the comments.
Of course, the language still paints a vision of us as uncaring even about our current members, which is inaccurate.

It is the reliance on this essay, as the seemingly only Commendable thing related to the switch, that makes me interpret this Commend as XKI bashing. An XKI bash that is, at best, partially accurate and, at worst, politically motivated.

[Jakker City]

First of all, regardless of what word you use, this isn't Commendable. Switching itself is not a positive action Twobagger took. It's a choice that was made, for better or worse.

I just want to repeat again that the proposal does not say anything about the switch being commendable. However since that clause was causing confusion and seemed to take away from what I was going for, it has been removed.

As for your issues with the essay, I cannot speak to it since it was Twobagger's personal account of what happened. It speaks to a lot of dynamics and emotions that they were going through that eventually lead to the switch happening. I don't see anything that is objectively inaccurate since it is their truth. The reality is that an essay that articulates one's personal experience with a region, their reasons for why they switched, and then offers additional advice for others is super valuable. It essentially serves like an autoethnography of sorts. You and others in XKI may disagree with language that was used, but as far as I can tell that is what Twobagger was experiencing. That is what he was feeling. That is what he was dealing with. And at the end of the day, those are the rich details and dynamics that often one does not consider when trying to decide to switch or just make a big decision in NS.

In fairness, I said “and end it in some other way”, which was supposed to address that. I can type something up when I get home as an example. You can even still acknowledge the controversy that came alongside the switch, if I’m understanding the situation correctly, but I don’t think it’s handled properly here.

As I say above, I removed the one clause. I also changed up the wording of the concluding clause that I think does better at articulating what I was going for.

[HumanSanity]

As for your issues with the essay, I cannot speak to it since it was Twobagger's personal account of what happened. It speaks to a lot of dynamics and emotions that they were going through that eventually lead to the switch happening. I don't see anything that is objectively inaccurate since it is their truth. The reality is that an essay that articulates one's personal experience with a region, their reasons for why they switched, and then offers additional advice for others is super valuable. It essentially serves like an autoethnography of sorts. You and others in XKI may disagree with language that was used, but as far as I can tell that is what Twobagger was experiencing. That is what he was feeling. That is what he was dealing with. And at the end of the day, those are the rich details and dynamics that often one does not consider when trying to decide to switch or just make a big decision in NS.

Of course, Twobagger's truth is Twobagger's truth. I can't dispute that.

But the thing about autoethnography is it can be contested as it relates to the broader implications of the individual's experience. I have explained parts of Twobagger's autoethnography that may fit with his personal experience but that I don't believe are part of how XKI is/operates.

This leads me to two things:
1) Insofar as SC votes are expressions of regional interest, this resolution is directly against XKI's interest because the essay it relies on for one of its clauses is an inaccurate and negative depiction of our community. A valid lived experience, yes. But it forwards that experience as a broader and inaccurate critique. And it's still against us, yes. When the world turns its attention to how XKI votes, this will be why I personally am opposed (combined with the fact your writing hasn't yet hit the level of Commendable). Of course, you probably weren't relying on my (or our) support - but this is why I'm reading the draft as an attack and feel justified in voting against on those grounds.

2) This is still not a Commendable act. Well written? Yes. Informative, revolutionary, educational, portably useful to others? Let's not overstate importance or value to the international community of demonstrating that switching can be done. Many people have done it in the past. Many more will do it. I'm not diminishing the act, I'm just trying to establish the consequences of this action compared to others.

Additionally, as an aside, I take objection to some of the specific language -

Affirming that the nominee’s level of care for community has extended beyond their time with that region including their authorship of an essay that detailed their change in regional alliances and outlines considerations that a nation should make when faced with such difficult decisions,

How does the essay demonstrate "care for community"? Especially given the phrase of "the nominee’s level of care for community has extended beyond their time with that region". This implies its care for XKI's community. Twobagger did an awful lot to care for XKI's community. However, his essay on the switch was certainly not care for XKI's community. Nor can I really identify any specific community/ies it demonstrated care for.

The clause also doesn't explain why it would be good to author an essay detailing a change in regional alliances and considerations involved. I'm probably not going to be convinced of it, as demonstrated by the back and forth here, but to convince anyone but me you might want to unpack this.

[Jakker City]

1) Insofar as SC votes are expressions of regional interest, this resolution is directly against XKI's interest because the essay it relies on for one of its clauses is an inaccurate and negative depiction of our community. A valid lived experience, yes. But it forwards that experience as a broader and inaccurate critique. And it's still against us, yes. When the world turns its attention to how XKI votes, this will be why I personally am opposed (combined with the fact your writing hasn't yet hit the level of Commendable). Of course, you probably weren't relying on my (or our) support - but this is why I'm reading the draft as an attack and feel justified in voting against on those grounds.

At this point, it feels like simply attempting to commend Twobagger, regardless of what is written, would go against XKI's interest. I know even if that clause was removed, you and XKI would argue that TB has not done enough to be commended. And now it has become even harder for me to take that perspective with much merit, especially since you recently said in regards to the current SC proposal at vote that "raiders deserve no SC recognition." I have appreciated your feedback and I have actively work to incorporate it. With that said, the proposal spotlights a former member of 10000 Islands that did many things to make the region better. It is not an attack. If anything, it is honoring someone's efforts and the region they were able to do a lot of good things in.

2) This is still not a Commendable act. Well written? Yes. Informative, revolutionary, educational, portably useful to others? Let's not overstate importance or value to the international community of demonstrating that switching can be done. Many people have done it in the past. Many more will do it. I'm not diminishing the act, I'm just trying to establish the consequences of this action compared to others.

But you are literally trying to diminish the act. Sure, plenty people have switched and will do so again. But there have not really been a ton of formal discussion in the past of all the various dynamics that went into that decision. And I have never said it is revolutionary. Plenty of acts that this council has commended has not been revolutionary (I would argue more often than not they are not revolutionary). But yes, this is informative and education and useful to others. That is what a commendable act is.

Additionally, as an aside, I take objection to some of the specific language -

Affirming that the nominee’s level of care for community has extended beyond their time with that region including their authorship of an essay that detailed their change in regional alliances and outlines considerations that a nation should make when faced with such difficult decisions,

How does the essay demonstrate "care for community"? Especially given the phrase of "the nominee’s level of care for community has extended beyond their time with that region". This implies its care for XKI's community. Twobagger did an awful lot to care for XKI's community. However, his essay on the switch was certainly not care for XKI's community. Nor can I really identify any specific community/ies it demonstrated care for.

The clause also doesn't explain why it would be good to author an essay detailing a change in regional alliances and considerations involved. I'm probably not going to be convinced of it, as demonstrated by the back and forth here, but to convince anyone but me you might want to unpack this.

My intention with the language was a bit of two-fold since from my understanding a large reason that TB switched was that he no longer felt a connection to his former region and able to give as much to that community, so was motivated to find another community to give the level of energy he has given in the past. The theme of the proposal is a care for community. Even beyond the motivation of switching, I do see the essay as providing insight. It can help individuals who are considering changing regions. It also provides another perspective for regional leaders to take when working on helping their members feel a sense of belonging that hopefully leads them to stay and remain active. In many ways, switching has a lot to do with finding community that fits one best.