[PASSED] Liberate Aurelia

[Nord-Norden]

Yes hello I'm the Sjalhaven mentioned in the proposal, former native of the region as you can attest by yourself by going back through the RMB enough, and I do indeed support this resolution.

The key word here is former. Not forced out, but left on your own accord, long before we came. Your word in this matter is as such meaningless.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Yes hello I'm the Sjalhaven mentioned in the proposal, former native of the region as you can attest by yourself by going back through the RMB enough, and I do indeed support this resolution.

You're the one who lost the founder password? Or was that someone else? I'm still not entirely clear on that.

[Kuriko]

Yes hello I'm the Sjalhaven mentioned in the proposal, former native of the region as you can attest by yourself by going back through the RMB enough, and I do indeed support this resolution.

The key word here is former. Not forced out, but left on your own accord, long before we came. Your word in this matter is as such meaningless.

You really don't understand how NS works, do you? As a native of the region, whether current or former, their word means everything when it comes to the fate of the region.

[Mallorea and Riva]

The key word here is former. Not forced out, but left on your own accord, long before we came. Your word in this matter is as such meaningless.

You really don't understand how NS works, do you? As a native of the region, whether current or former, their word means everything when it comes to the fate of the region.

That's a really easy thing to say but if you can explain why that's the case in this instance with these facts I'd be interested in hearing it.

[Lord Dominator]

The key word here is former. Not forced out, but left on your own accord, long before we came. Your word in this matter is as such meaningless.

You really don't understand how NS works, do you? As a native of the region, whether current or former, their word means everything when it comes to the fate of the region.

Leaving of their own accord before any given invasion would seem to make them no longer a native, and thus no longer native support for a Liberation.

[Kuriko]

You really don't understand how NS works, do you? As a native of the region, whether current or former, their word means everything when it comes to the fate of the region.

Leaving of their own accord before any given invasion would seem to make them no longer a native, and thus no longer native support for a Liberation.

There's a difference between CTEing and losing a password from "leaving on their own". They were, and still are, considered a native of Aurelia and have a right to have their opinion heard on the fate of the region they once called home. If they still had the password to the founder account, which they unfortunately do not, we would not be having this discussion and they would still be there by virtue of keeping the founder account alive. You and Mal are arguing from a raider point of view, so your arguments here should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Leaving of their own accord before any given invasion would seem to make them no longer a native, and thus no longer native support for a Liberation.

There's a difference between CTEing and losing a password from "leaving on their own". They were, and still are, considered a native of Aurelia and have a right to have their opinion heard on the fate of the region they once called home. If they still had the password to the founder account, which they unfortunately do not, we would not be having this discussion and they would still be there by virtue of keeping the founder account alive. You and Mal are arguing from a raider point of view, so your arguments here should be taken with a grain of salt.

Sounds to me like they left because they moved on from that sandbox, and when someone else found a use for it they came back to say they don't want anyone else to have fun with it but them. Can't even be bothered to care enough to keep the founder alive. "Lost" passwords sounds a lot like they didn't log in for so long that they forgot because it wasn't particularly important.

[Lord Dominator]

Leaving of their own accord before any given invasion would seem to make them no longer a native, and thus no longer native support for a Liberation.

There's a difference between CTEing and losing a password from "leaving on their own". They were, and still are, considered a native of Aurelia and have a right to have their opinion heard on the fate of the region they once called home. If they still had the password to the founder account, which they unfortunately do not, we would not be having this discussion and they would still be there by virtue of keeping the founder account alive. You and Mal are arguing from a raider point of view, so your arguments here should be taken with a grain of salt.

Firstly, my argument is related to the specific individual being noted as a native & still supposedly having nativeness despite being not in the region for some time. Former natives having equal argumentative weight to current natives on a Liberation is dumb.
Secondly, if there extenuating factors for why they didn't come back in-region, then cool.

[Nord-Norden]

Leaving of their own accord before any given invasion would seem to make them no longer a native, and thus no longer native support for a Liberation.

There's a difference between CTEing and losing a password from "leaving on their own". They were, and still are, considered a native of Aurelia and have a right to have their opinion heard on the fate of the region they once called home. If they still had the password to the founder account, which they unfortunately do not, we would not be having this discussion and they would still be there by virtue of keeping the founder account alive. You and Mal are arguing from a raider point of view, so your arguments here should be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't see how they could be seen as such. The region was empty besides one inactive nation, and had been so for a while, when we came. As we've also said before, the password was and still is a response to raids by others on us. We want one thing for the region, that is, to give it a new founder so that raids are impossible and the region might be open for everyone. A random abandoner of the region in question has no moral claim to its future.

[Nord-Norden]

Before we came, some 200 days ago, the last forum post in Aurelia was well beyond 2 years old. Today, it is 3 years and 51 days since the last post. This is that post.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=21575982

[Lord Dominator]

Claims as to being beneficial or some junk aren't going to help your case much Nord.

[Numero Capitan]

Yes hello I'm the Sjalhaven mentioned in the proposal, former native of the region as you can attest by yourself by going back through the RMB enough, and I do indeed support this resolution.

The key word here is former. Not forced out, but left on your own accord, long before we came. Your word in this matter is as such meaningless.

This would be very convenient for you if that was true but it isn’t.

Your WFE says it all “we came, saw, and conquered your region in the name of Nephmir, Prosperity, Unity, and Fun!”

The region is held as a trophy for Nephmir and their ego. You have held the region for two thirds of a year but have not brought any prosperity or fun to it and you certainly haven’t united its current and former residents with your vision you now miraculously have to rebuild it. If you want to start a new region with a founder and democracy then you’re free to any time, just don’t grief and destroy another community and it’s history in the process (who want nothing to do with you).

You claim you’ve put a password on to prevent raids but it’s only there to stop defenders liberating the region. All the nations on the ban list are defender WAs attempting the liberate the region, worth noting they all became defenders after your region seized and griefed their own region, turning it into a similar wasteland until they were able to take it back. Your WFE literally says you raided the region, how about you stop raids by uhhhh stopping raiding?

mall stuff

The argument of other raiders that as soon as a nation CTEs it has less right to a region than an imperialist group of raiders sniffing around would again be very convenient to those trying to suggest it, but is a nonsense. Sjal actually left the region as they had another nation there and only wanted to RP as one of them, but the region also had a temporary policy of ejecting people as soon as they became inactive for a while. The suggestion that either of those things rescinds any right they have as natives of the region is nonsense.

The founder nation was controlled by at least three people (you can see from their sign offs on the RMB), and although we’ve tried to contact all three the two that are contactable cannot find the last communal password.

[Armaros]

The key word here is former. Not forced out, but left on your own accord, long before we came. Your word in this matter is as such meaningless.

You really don't understand how NS works, do you? As a native of the region, whether current or former, their word means everything when it comes to the fate of the region.

Hardly. If you leave a region you tend to lose the right to claim “nativity”, as vague as that term is. You wouldn’t apply this argument in reverse either: if a former native says “let’s raid, password and refound”, I’m pretty sure you would apply the opposite logic instead of “well, they’re a former native so their word is law”.

There's a difference between CTEing and losing a password from "leaving on their own". They were, and still are, considered a native of Aurelia and have a right to have their opinion heard on the fate of the region they once called home.

“Still are” according to who? You? You decide for natives that a former native is supposed to count as native?

If they still had the password to the founder account, which they unfortunately do not, we would not be having this discussion and they would still be there by virtue of keeping the founder account alive.

Well, they don’t, rather obviously, so that doesn’t really matter. One must wonder how much you exactly care for a region if you can’t be bothered to take the simple action of logging on to the founder once a month.

You and Mal are arguing from a raider point of view, so your arguments here should be taken with a grain of salt.

“You’re a raider, your argument is invalid!”

[Numero Capitan]

No one has said your view is invalid but it’s very clear your motivations are going to be more in favour of fellow raiders than the interests of natives.

You’re attempting to draw a line beyond which the interests of outsiders who want to destroy a historic community somehow trump the interests of the former natives of that community, that line doesn’t exist. The presumption always lies in favour of the nations that built a genuine community under that name and don’t want to become a trophy celebrating someone’s own ego.

[Kuriko]

You really don't understand how NS works, do you? As a native of the region, whether current or former, their word means everything when it comes to the fate of the region.

Hardly. If you leave a region you tend to lose the right to claim “nativity”, as vague as that term is. You wouldn’t apply this argument in reverse either: if a former native says “let’s raid, password and refound”, I’m pretty sure you would apply the opposite logic instead of “well, they’re a former native so their word is law”.

There's a difference between CTEing and losing a password from "leaving on their own". They were, and still are, considered a native of Aurelia and have a right to have their opinion heard on the fate of the region they once called home.

“Still are” according to who? You? You decide for natives that a former native is supposed to count as native?

If they still had the password to the founder account, which they unfortunately do not, we would not be having this discussion and they would still be there by virtue of keeping the founder account alive.

Well, they don’t, rather obviously, so that doesn’t really matter. One must wonder how much you exactly care for a region if you can’t be bothered to take the simple action of logging on to the founder once a month.

You and Mal are arguing from a raider point of view, so your arguments here should be taken with a grain of salt.

“You’re a raider, your argument is invalid!”

I didn't say your argument was invalid, I said it should be taken with a grain of salt. As Numero said, the founder was a shared nation by three people. How can you blame and say Sjal has no right to decide the fate of Aurelia as a former native and founder? There are no new nations in the region to claim nativism and make their choice invalid.

The founder CTE could very well have been the fault of the third person who had access to the nation, not Sjalhaven or Atlantica. The only one out of the three to CTE is more than likely the one who took the founder account with them, more than likely changing the password to something different than what Sjalhaven and Atlantica knew. I'm pretty sure if Atlantica or Sjalhaven had that password they would have kept it alive, but did not have it.

[United Provinces of Atlantica]

Speaking as a native of Aurelia, under both this nation and a nation called Socialist Maba, I can confirm my strong support for this resolution.

Hardly. If you leave a region you tend to lose the right to claim “nativity”, as vague as that term is. You wouldn’t apply this argument in reverse either: if a former native says “let’s raid, password and refound”, I’m pretty sure you would apply the opposite logic instead of “well, they’re a former native so their word is law”.

“Still are” according to who? You? You decide for natives that a former native is supposed to count as native?

Well, they don’t, rather obviously, so that doesn’t really matter. One must wonder how much you exactly care for a region if you can’t be bothered to take the simple action of logging on to the founder once a month.

“You’re a raider, your argument is invalid!”

I didn't say your argument was invalid, I said it should be taken with a grain of salt. As Numero said, the founder was a shared nation by three people. How can you blame and say Sjal has no right to decide the fate of Aurelia as a former native and founder? There are no new nations in the region to claim nativism and make their choice invalid.

The founder CTE could very well have been the fault of the third person who had access to the nation, not Sjalhaven or Atlantica. The only one out of the three to CTE is more than likely the one who took the founder account with them, more than likely changing the password to something different than what Sjalhaven and Atlantica knew. I'm pretty sure if Atlantica or Sjalhaven had that password they would have kept it alive, but did not have it.

I can confirm this; there was indeed a third founder, Ziegenhein, and he has not been active on NationStates or Discord for years and almost certainly changed the password. I have not had the password to the Founder account for years; if I did, the region would not be in the predicament it is today.

[Aumeltopia]

The South Pacific is proud to vote for this Liberation and stand against forces of hostile occupation.

[Xeknos]

Countless nations throughout history have invaded and tread on the rights of others under the pretense of "knowing better" or "giving the victim a future."

The Federation of Xeknos votes in favor of this resolution.

[Nord-Norden]

Countless nations throughout history have invaded and tread on the rights of others under the pretense of "knowing better" or "giving the victim a future."

The Federation of Xeknos votes in favor of this resolution.

None of which is the case here. An empty region, abandoned by the nations referenced in the proposed resolution, given new life by the current administration.

[Concrete Slab]

Then remove the password if you're really for this "new life."

[Nord-Norden]

Then remove the password if you're really for this "new life."

That leaves us vulnerable to raids. Which is why we instated the password to begin with

[Alterrum]

This resolution doesn't make sense and seems mostly to be a holiness circlejerk by the defenders. In whose name is it proposed? The former natives, who have long since left and cannot even be bothered to come to their region's defense themselves. It's apparently more important to preserve such ridiculous things as RMB history as some ooh-aah museum piece that no active nation gives a dime about than to give the region over to people who would actually care to bring it alive again. Get off it.

Historic community? Excuse me, are we dealing literally with tribes in the forest here who've occupied their lands for thousands of years?
I blame the raiders who have obviously failed to keep the Puritans busy with good raids and the latter are now loosing their minds and becoming museum collectors. Well, better than inventing new genders.

[Xoriet]

Memories are long when it comes to a guy (hi Nephmir) who declared war on half the game and promised to purge their entire populace into TRR to "cleanse" them of "corruption"~

Oh, there's also the fact that this is how the SC Liberation function is intended to be used. That, too.

[Numero Capitan]

This resolution doesn't make sense and seems mostly to be a holiness circlejerk by the defenders. In whose name is it proposed? The former natives, who have long since left and cannot even be bothered to come to their region's defense themselves. It's apparently more important to preserve such ridiculous things as RMB history as some ooh-aah museum piece that no active nation gives a dime about than to give the region over to people who would actually care to bring it alive again. Get off it.

Historic community? Excuse me, are we dealing literally with tribes in the forest here who've occupied their lands for thousands of years?
I blame the raiders who have obviously failed to keep the Puritans busy with good raids and the latter are now loosing their minds and becoming museum collectors. Well, better than inventing new genders.

You seem to be struggling with a lot of wider issues that’s aren’t directly related to this proposal so I’ll keep this brief. The liberation was only proposed after discussions with former natives (some of which have posted here) who have an appetite for freeing the region from its occupiers.

Those same natives can’t exactly come to the regions defense because of the password on the region, hence the resolution.

We’re in a busy week of raider activity so no need to worry about that.

[Mallorea and Riva]

When this region ends up locked with just a defender puppet sitting in it to keep it from cte I'll get a decent laugh.