NationStates

Kuriko wrote:Since I don't want to continue this in a thread that has nothing to do with Mark.

The commend of Grub has everything to do with Mark, as mark currently controls Grub.

Kuriko wrote:This is correct at this time. Woonsocket did once control Grub while he was Chief Executive between 2017 and earlier this year, but once he stepped down he passed it to his successor Markanite.

Touche Turtle.

Kuriko wrote:Can you please enlighten me, and the community, on how me writing a draft for commending Markanite is a "selfy" when we're two different players?

Given the fact you just happen to be the delegate of the region which Mark is the Chief Executive? Feel free to continue, but it reeks of nepotism to me.

Lord Dominator wrote:With the note that the ship has long since sailed on Kuriko commending regionmates, or C&Cing regionmates in general.

Meh. What can I say I am old school. As far as I am concerned, C&C's should be written by a neutral party, but what do I know?

OOC: Sciongrad was Commended by a regionmate, so were Sanctaria Bears Armed and Eluvatar etc., this isn't new or exclusive to XKI.

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: Sciongrad was Commended by a regionmate, so were Sanctaria Bears Armed and Eluvatar etc., this isn't new or exclusive to XKI.

Abacathea wasn't already in the IDU back then. They only joined the region recently...

Bears Armed wrote:

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: Sciongrad was Commended by a regionmate, so were Sanctaria Bears Armed and Eluvatar etc., this isn't new or exclusive to XKI.

Abacathea wasn't already in the IDU back then. They only joined the region recently...

OOC: Whoops.

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: Sciongrad was Commended by a regionmate, so were Sanctaria Bears Armed and Eluvatar etc., this isn't new or exclusive to XKI.

And yet if someone from CCD was to author a C&C for Joco, the forums would explode.

Wayneactia wrote:

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: Sciongrad was Commended by a regionmate, so were Sanctaria Bears Armed and Eluvatar etc., this isn't new or exclusive to XKI.

And yet if someone from CCD was to author a C&C for Joco, the forums would explode.

OOC: Because Joco is uncommendable

Marxist Germany wrote:

Wayneactia wrote:
And yet if someone from CCD was to author a C&C for Joco, the forums would explode.

OOC: Because Joco is uncommendable

So is Markanite tbh.

OP should remove anything about Osiris from the draft - TITO's deployment to Osiris had nothing to do with ensuring democracy and everything to do with combating raiders.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: Because Joco is uncommendable

So is Markanite tbh.

OP should remove anything about Osiris from the draft - TITO's deployment to Osiris had nothing to do with ensuring democracy and everything to do with combating raiders.

That's odd, you didn't have an issue with Osiris being mentioned in Commend Paffnia. Also, combating raiders in a newly created GCR is bad because?? The result of the Osiris operation was that a democratically elected government arose within Osiris, and as you know Osiris turned raider years later. Markanite has done more than enough to be worthy of commendation, and taking out mention of Osiris leaves out a key operation he deployed on which I won't do.

Kuriko wrote:

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:So is Markanite tbh.

OP should remove anything about Osiris from the draft - TITO's deployment to Osiris had nothing to do with ensuring democracy and everything to do with combating raiders.

That's odd, you didn't have an issue with Osiris being mentioned in Commend Paffnia.

*shrug* People are entitled to change their minds.

Also, combating raiders in a newly created GCR is bad because??

Seizing power in a newly created GCR when no one asked you to come in and 'safeguard a democratic election process' just because your lot saw Kain the Dragoon looking likely to take the delegacy is what's bad. You invaded Osiris and banjected anyone who opposed you. The 'raider' that so scared TITO into action had just overseen the region of New Britannia turn to neutrality, so it's not like you were opposing Evil Wolf - nor were you justified in invading Osiris.

Given the language regarding Osiris is more precise in this proposal than in the Commend Grub proposal, I have less of a problem with it.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:

Kuriko wrote:That's odd, you didn't have an issue with Osiris being mentioned in Commend Paffnia.

*shrug* People are entitled to change their minds.

Also, combating raiders in a newly created GCR is bad because??

Seizing power in a newly created GCR when no one asked you to come in and 'safeguard a democratic election process' just because your lot saw Kain the Dragoon looking likely to take the delegacy is what's bad. You invaded Osiris and banjected anyone who opposed you. The 'raider' that so scared TITO into action had just overseen the region of New Britannia turn to neutrality, so it's not like you were opposing Evil Wolf - nor were you justified in invading Osiris.

We didn't "invade" Osiris, so you can quit using that term when it comes to that operation. You know very well that if a single raider organization had taken control of either one of the newly created sinker regions it would have been turned into a recruitment region for that organization and nothing else. Osiris is the way it is today because TITO made sure no single raider organization could take it for themselves, so stop using a bad faith argument when it comes to our organization please.

Kuriko wrote:We didn't "invade" Osiris, so you can quit using that term when it comes to that operation. You know very well that if a single raider organization had taken control of either one of the newly created sinker regions it would have been turned into a recruitment region for that organization and nothing else. Osiris is the way it is today because TITO made sure no single raider organization could take it for themselves, so stop using a bad faith argument when it comes to our organization please.

Osiris is a raider region with an autocratic government today because of TITO? I wish someone would tell all my detractors it's really TITO's fault.

(I'm not actually arguing with what you're saying. Just a little humor).

Markanite has defended and liberated more regions than an invader has to merely tag before they are considered for Condemnation. Should we repeal Vandoosa's Condemnation because they were never in charge and most of their raids were done on the back of an illegal program? I mean, they only spent hundreds of hours making as many regions as possible unlivable. Let us not downplay one's impact on the international community due to the fact that they were not always in the war room. We're talking nearly a decade of dedicated and consistent service to the cause of regional sovereignty. Championing said cause while holding positions of extreme influence in this very body.

If Mark's only claim to fame was their work as a defender, I'd agree that not being in a leadership role would be a disqualifier for me. Markanite is not just a TITO member though. They are one of the most invaluable members of the world's largest UCR and one of the longest lasting regional infrastructures in the history of this game. Mark helped build the 10KI infrastructure that we all openly and secretly covet for our own regions. He stepped in to fulfill a role anytime it was asked of him, even stabilizing the region and its delegacy when it was challenged with uncertainty (yes, I'm talking about my own banning).

"Lauding Markanite's service to the international community, where, as a strong and cooperative voice at many early summits, they contributed to the development of the fledgling, cross-regional Embassy infrastructure, establishing the alliances that continue to bring stability and cooperation to the WA realm."

Are we talking about the embassy system in the game, or just 10KI's embassy infrastructure. If Mark played a role in the creation of NS embassies, I'd classify that as pretty fucking significant.

BT, I'm reasonably sure that Vandy's Condemn only stands due to Tim not submitting his draft.

And no, I do not believe Markanite was at all involved in any proposal for NS' embassy system based on a look through their posts and Technical. Also don't believe proposing it would be at all particularly Commendable (general principle on Technical proposals), but that doesn't seem to matter regardless.

Kuriko wrote:

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:*shrug* People are entitled to change their minds. Seizing power in a newly created GCR when no one asked you to come in and 'safeguard a democratic election process' just because your lot saw Kain the Dragoon looking likely to take the delegacy is what's bad. You invaded Osiris and banjected anyone who opposed you. The 'raider' that so scared TITO into action had just overseen the region of New Britannia turn to neutrality, so it's not like you were opposing Evil Wolf - nor were you justified in invading Osiris.

We didn't "invade" Osiris, so you can quit using that term when it comes to that operation. You know very well that if a single raider organization had taken control of either one of the newly created sinker regions it would have been turned into a recruitment region for that organization and nothing else. Osiris is the way it is today because TITO made sure no single raider organization could take it for themselves, so stop using a bad faith argument when it comes to our organization please.

Hi, I was there in 2011 when Osiris and Balder were formed - you invaded Osiris, pretending otherwise, whilst being typical of TITO, doesn't actually mean you didn't invade it.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:

Kuriko wrote:We didn't "invade" Osiris, so you can quit using that term when it comes to that operation. You know very well that if a single raider organization had taken control of either one of the newly created sinker regions it would have been turned into a recruitment region for that organization and nothing else. Osiris is the way it is today because TITO made sure no single raider organization could take it for themselves, so stop using a bad faith argument when it comes to our organization please.

Hi, I was there in 2011 when Osiris and Balder were formed - you invaded Osiris, pretending otherwise, whilst being typical of TITO, doesn't actually mean you didn't invade it.

I'm not going to continue arguing with someone who clearly misrepresents facts based upon personal bias in order to smear TITO. We didn't invade Osiris, period.

Lord Dominator wrote:BT, I'm reasonably sure that Vandy's Condemn only stands due to Tim not submitting his draft.

And no, I do not believe Markanite was at all involved in any proposal for NS' embassy system based on a look through their posts and Technical. Also don't believe proposing it would be at all particularly Commendable (general principle on Technical proposals), but that doesn't seem to matter regardless.

Benevolent Thomas wrote:Markanite has defended and liberated more regions than an invader has to merely tag before they are considered for Condemnation. Should we repeal Vandoosa's Condemnation because they were never in charge and most of their raids were done on the back of an illegal program? I mean, they only spent hundreds of hours making as many regions as possible unlivable. Let us not downplay one's impact on the international community due to the fact that they were not always in the war room. We're talking nearly a decade of dedicated and consistent service to the cause of regional sovereignty. Championing said cause while holding positions of extreme influence in this very body.

If Mark's only claim to fame was their work as a defender, I'd agree that not being in a leadership role would be a disqualifier for me. Markanite is not just a TITO member though. They are one of the most invaluable members of the world's largest UCR and one of the longest lasting regional infrastructures in the history of this game. Mark helped build the 10KI infrastructure that we all openly and secretly covet for our own regions. He stepped in to fulfill a role anytime it was asked of him, even stabilizing the region and its delegacy when it was challenged with uncertainty (yes, I'm talking about my own banning).

"Lauding Markanite's service to the international community, where, as a strong and cooperative voice at many early summits, they contributed to the development of the fledgling, cross-regional Embassy infrastructure, establishing the alliances that continue to bring stability and cooperation to the WA realm."

Are we talking about the embassy system in the game, or just 10KI's embassy infrastructure. If Mark played a role in the creation of NS embassies, I'd classify that as pretty fucking significant.

The part about the embassies is in reference to when the embassy system we have today was introduced. Markanite was the delegate of XKI at the time and was instrumental in setting up the early embassy system of 10000 Islands.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:

Kuriko wrote:That's odd, you didn't have an issue with Osiris being mentioned in Commend Paffnia.

*shrug* People are entitled to change their minds.

Also, combating raiders in a newly created GCR is bad because??

Seizing power in a newly created GCR when no one asked you to come in and 'safeguard a democratic election process' just because your lot saw Kain the Dragoon looking likely to take the delegacy is what's bad. You invaded Osiris and banjected anyone who opposed you. The 'raider' that so scared TITO into action had just overseen the region of New Britannia turn to neutrality, so it's not like you were opposing Evil Wolf - nor were you justified in invading Osiris.

Kuriko wrote:

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:*shrug* People are entitled to change their minds. Seizing power in a newly created GCR when no one asked you to come in and 'safeguard a democratic election process' just because your lot saw Kain the Dragoon looking likely to take the delegacy is what's bad. You invaded Osiris and banjected anyone who opposed you. The 'raider' that so scared TITO into action had just overseen the region of New Britannia turn to neutrality, so it's not like you were opposing Evil Wolf - nor were you justified in invading Osiris.

We didn't "invade" Osiris, so you can quit using that term when it comes to that operation. You know very well that if a single raider organization had taken control of either one of the newly created sinker regions it would have been turned into a recruitment region for that organization and nothing else. Osiris is the way it is today because TITO made sure no single raider organization could take it for themselves, so stop using a bad faith argument when it comes to our organization please.

I'm not exactly experienced in NationStates history, i've only been around for little more than a year, but I am well experienced on the game mechanics at least. So, TITO, the army essentially, of the Ten Thousand Islands (correct me at any point if i'm wrong on the facts), led an operation into Osiris because of a supposed raider threat, if i'm reading this thread right.

Therefore, TITO invaded Osiris, a new region at the time, because of a supposed threat of raiding recruitment, although the region was already swinging towards neutrality? Also, it seems a bit heavy-handed to assume that TITO then is solely responsible for the modern Osiris. And technically it would've been an invasion then if you entered the region and took control of it, no matter how you phrase it or your justification. An invasion is an invasion, regardless of how you phrase it.

In conclusion, I have taken from this thread that you wish to commend a fellow member of your region for an invasion into a new region for possibly becoming a recruitment platform for raiders. Of course, do tell me if I have some of the history wrong, it will of course help all of us.

Novae Romae wrote:

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:*shrug* People are entitled to change their minds. Seizing power in a newly created GCR when no one asked you to come in and 'safeguard a democratic election process' just because your lot saw Kain the Dragoon looking likely to take the delegacy is what's bad. You invaded Osiris and banjected anyone who opposed you. The 'raider' that so scared TITO into action had just overseen the region of New Britannia turn to neutrality, so it's not like you were opposing Evil Wolf - nor were you justified in invading Osiris.

Kuriko wrote:We didn't "invade" Osiris, so you can quit using that term when it comes to that operation. You know very well that if a single raider organization had taken control of either one of the newly created sinker regions it would have been turned into a recruitment region for that organization and nothing else. Osiris is the way it is today because TITO made sure no single raider organization could take it for themselves, so stop using a bad faith argument when it comes to our organization please.

I'm not exactly experienced in NationStates history, i've only been around for little more than a year, but I am well experienced on the game mechanics at least. So, TITO, the army essentially, of the Ten Thousand Islands (correct me at any point if i'm wrong on the facts), led an operation into Osiris because of a supposed raider threat, if i'm reading this thread right.

Therefore, TITO invaded Osiris, a new region at the time, because of a supposed threat of raiding recruitment, although the region was already swinging towards neutrality? Also, it seems a bit heavy-handed to assume that TITO then is solely responsible for the modern Osiris. And technically it would've been an invasion then if you entered the region and took control of it, no matter how you phrase it or your justification. An invasion is an invasion, regardless of how you phrase it.

In conclusion, I have taken from this thread that you wish to commend a fellow member of your region for an invasion into a new region for possibly becoming a recruitment platform for raiders. Of course, do tell me if I have some of the history wrong, it will of course help all of us.

TITO's responsibility for the current form of Osiris is basically negligible - it's the height of historical revisionism for Kuriko to claim otherwise.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:

Novae Romae wrote:




I'm not exactly experienced in NationStates history, i've only been around for little more than a year, but I am well experienced on the game mechanics at least. So, TITO, the army essentially, of the Ten Thousand Islands (correct me at any point if i'm wrong on the facts), led an operation into Osiris because of a supposed raider threat, if i'm reading this thread right.

Therefore, TITO invaded Osiris, a new region at the time, because of a supposed threat of raiding recruitment, although the region was already swinging towards neutrality? Also, it seems a bit heavy-handed to assume that TITO then is solely responsible for the modern Osiris. And technically it would've been an invasion then if you entered the region and took control of it, no matter how you phrase it or your justification. An invasion is an invasion, regardless of how you phrase it.

In conclusion, I have taken from this thread that you wish to commend a fellow member of your region for an invasion into a new region for possibly becoming a recruitment platform for raiders. Of course, do tell me if I have some of the history wrong, it will of course help all of us.

TITO's responsibility for the current form of Osiris is basically negligible - it's the height of historical revisionism for Kuriko to claim otherwise.

I would agree, as looking at Orisis' WFE, it endorses the Sehkmet Legion as a Raider military. So to be honest, this commendation is pointless other than to give praise to a fellow regionmate for taking part in a military operation which, over time, didn't even really succeed.

Novae Romae wrote:I'm not exactly experienced in NationStates history, i've only been around for little more than a year, but I am well experienced on the game mechanics at least. So, TITO, the army essentially, of the Ten Thousand Islands (correct me at any point if i'm wrong on the facts), led an operation into Osiris because of a supposed raider threat, if i'm reading this thread right.

Therefore, TITO invaded Osiris, a new region at the time, because of a supposed threat of raiding recruitment, although the region was already swinging towards neutrality? Also, it seems a bit heavy-handed to assume that TITO then is solely responsible for the modern Osiris. And technically it would've been an invasion then if you entered the region and took control of it, no matter how you phrase it or your justification. An invasion is an invasion, regardless of how you phrase it.

In conclusion, I have taken from this thread that you wish to commend a fellow member of your region for an invasion into a new region for possibly becoming a recruitment platform for raiders. Of course, do tell me if I have some of the history wrong, it will of course help all of us.

TITO moved into Osiris because a raider came in from elsewhere and gained a bunch of endorsements in an apparent attempt to take the Delegate's position. Granted, the circumstances behind Osiris were special, but this is generally what defending is.

Edit: the rest of this is meant more generally, and not just to you.

Having also been there, it seems pretty roundly dishonest to claim that TITOs motives were to claim the region for itself, instead of establishing native control and ultimately leaving. Especially considering that TITOs only involvement there was to hold elections to appoint a native delegate who could then set up forums, and that the TITO of that time cared even less about public opinion than today's TITO.

But this is the same old story that we've been hearing from TITOs detractors for years and years: ignore our motives and make up your own, ignore our actions and make up your own.

Twobagger wrote:

Novae Romae wrote:I'm not exactly experienced in NationStates history, i've only been around for little more than a year, but I am well experienced on the game mechanics at least. So, TITO, the army essentially, of the Ten Thousand Islands (correct me at any point if i'm wrong on the facts), led an operation into Osiris because of a supposed raider threat, if i'm reading this thread right.

Therefore, TITO invaded Osiris, a new region at the time, because of a supposed threat of raiding recruitment, although the region was already swinging towards neutrality? Also, it seems a bit heavy-handed to assume that TITO then is solely responsible for the modern Osiris. And technically it would've been an invasion then if you entered the region and took control of it, no matter how you phrase it or your justification. An invasion is an invasion, regardless of how you phrase it.

In conclusion, I have taken from this thread that you wish to commend a fellow member of your region for an invasion into a new region for possibly becoming a recruitment platform for raiders. Of course, do tell me if I have some of the history wrong, it will of course help all of us.

TITO moved into Osiris because a raider came in from elsewhere and gained a bunch of endorsements in an apparent attempt to take the Delegate's position. Granted, the circumstances behind Osiris were special, but this is generally what defending is.

Edit: the rest of this is meant more generally, and not just to you.

Having also been there, it seems pretty roundly dishonest to claim that TITOs motives were to claim the region for itself, instead of establishing native control and ultimately leaving. Especially considering that TITOs only involvement there was to hold elections to appoint a native delegate who could then set up forums, and that the TITO of that time cared even less about public opinion than today's TITO.

But this is the same old story that we've been hearing from TITOs detractors for years and years: ignore our motives and make up your own, ignore our actions and make up your own.

I agree that TITO wasn't there to claim the region for themselves, after all, if they wanted to do that then Osiris would be totally different.

Yeah no one actually said TITO were there to claim Osiris for themselves - but Kain was as close to a 'native' as you could get in that situation tbh - one of the first people in the region. TITO moved in because he was a raider - had nothing to do with 'establishing native control', which was happening anyway. Y'all seem to be acting as if raiders can't be native - a stance that both then and now is pretty dumb.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Yeah no one actually said TITO were there to claim Osiris for themselves - but Kain was as close to a 'native' as you could get in that situation tbh - one of the first people in the region. TITO moved in because he was a raider - had nothing to do with 'establishing native control', which was happening anyway. Y'all seem to be acting as if raiders can't be native - a stance that both then and now is pretty dumb.

No one is arguing that (past and present) raiders can't be natives just because they are raiders. It just is more than a bit off when a raider heads into a region with plenty of endorsements and unilaterally rolls out a new forum for the region's inhabitants.

So we sponsored a vote where everyone who wanted to commit to the region had an equal say in choosing the region's first delegate, who could then put up their forum. So instead of letting outside forces - like Kain and his endorsers, and yes, like TITO - choose the first native delegate and forum of the region, we had a third party oversee the election that those wishing to be natives could participate in.

Those who wanted to commit to the region could determine its future - and ultimately, looking back, the people who have committed to the region have decided that it should be a raider region. Not the choice we'd have made, but it's the path their region got to choose for itself.

Twobagger wrote:<snip>

Hm. But were "Kain_the_Dragoon" and his endorsers allowed to vote?

A Bloodred Moon wrote:Hm. But were "Kain_the_Dragoon" and his endorsers allowed to vote?

Good question. I didn't remember offhand, but the rules outlined in here seem to state explicitly that they would have been unbanned and able to participate, provided they committed their WA to the region for the whole election. Looks like at least one nation we banned (Nicholas von Sinterklaas) was willing and able to come back in, run, and cast a valid vote.