[DEFEATED] Commend Mikeswill (sweet 15!)

[Fahran]

I have cast a tentative vote in favor of the commendation in light of the ostensible achievement of Mikeswill which I do not feel should be denied solely to spite Jocospor. While I'm aware that many will disagree with this perspective, I have ever maintained that the ill-repute of an author or past grudges bourn against them should not necessarily impact how we perceive a resolution they have authored - especially if it addresses a salient matter or commends an upstanding member of the community. Opposition to the Security Council itself on the part of the nominee presents a more compelling case, but, even then, it is not so compelling that I'm inclined to aid in voting down an otherwise worthwhile commendation. If, however, the opponents of this resolution can demonstrate that the nominee, Mikeswill, has engaged in behaviors that make them unworthy of a commendation, then I might contemplate altering my vote accordingly.

[Miporin]

Leaning towards a no vote on this one. Overly flowery language notwithstanding, the case can be made that Mikeswill's accomplishment only stands because mainstream raiding organisations refused to touch it- for a long time, he reciprocated by sending occasional military support through Ile de France.

Meanwhile, other delegates with similarly long tenures found themselves targeted and unseated, notably those of Antarctica, Texas, and Forest. Not to mention a concerted effort to pull down yet more delegacies by TBH- with NationStates once again left untouched.

Is the accomplishment still impressive? Sure. Does it deserve to be commended, given it's largely only happened due to the goodwill of condemnable groups? Not so much.

[Lord Dominator]

Leaning towards a no vote on this one. Overly flowery language notwithstanding, the case can be made that Mikeswill's accomplishment only stands because mainstream raiding organisations refused to touch it- for a long time, he reciprocated by sending occasional military support through Ile de France.

Meanwhile, other delegates with similarly long tenures found themselves targeted and unseated, notably those of Antarctica, Texas, and Forest. Not to mention a concerted effort to pull down yet more delegacies by TBH- with NationStates once again left untouched.

Is the accomplishment still impressive? Sure. Does it deserve to be commended, given it's largely only happened due to the goodwill of condemnable groups? Not so much.

Related note - NewTexas of Texas will in a couple days hit the same 15 years, even when accounting for 1.5 days out of office due to 3 prior TBH-led dethronings.

[WayNeacTia]

I see I was mistaken about Mikeswill not wanting the commendation. I was planning to still vote against this because a Regional Officer in NationStates had engaged in petty embassy closures over it, but it looks like that person went a bit rogue, as Mikeswill has cancelled the embassy closures in question.

I've switched my vote to being for this, not that it will matter. To those voting against it, if you're voting against it because you think it's hypocritical to give Mikeswill a commendation based on his opposition to the Security Council, I think that's valid -- though I disagree. If, on the other hand, you are voting against it because Jocospor is the author, I have argued in the recent past we shouldn't oppose General Assembly proposals based exclusively on their authorship, and I have to insist on a similar standard in the Security Council. The petty personalization that is spreading from gameplay and now infecting other parts of this game desperately needs to be rolled back. I don't care that Jocospor is the author. The proposal is decent enough to pass, and considerations about its authorship alone really shouldn't factor into it. Let's stop with all this personalized crap.

Elites voting based on authorship and the author not being part of the gameplay in-crowd are, ironically, validating everything both Mikeswill and Jocospor have always said about the Security Council, and everything lots of people are saying about gameplay these days. Congratulations for that, I guess.

You seem to be missing one singular point here. Jocospor is only doing this as part of his grand badge hunt. There was zero emergency on this one. He could have done his research and posted a draft. There was nothing stopping him from posting this weeks ago, so it could have been worked on and fine tuned if Joscospor was actually acting in good faith on this.

[Mikeswill]

Related note - NewTexas of Texas will in a couple days hit the same 15 years, even when accounting for 1.5 days out of office due to 3 prior TBH-led dethronings.

NewTexas was always a day behind me because of a glitch which reset WA Delegacy start dates.

In reality NewTexas was Delegate at least six months longer than me, but alas, the unfortunate raid...

[Lord Dominator]

Related note - NewTexas of Texas will in a couple days hit the same 15 years, even when accounting for 1.5 days out of office due to 3 prior TBH-led dethronings.

NewTexas was always a day behind me because of a glitch which reset WA Delegacy start dates.

In reality NewTexas was Delegate at least six months longer than me, but alas, the unfortunate raid...

Interesting, didn't know that.

[Mikeswill]

In fact, I was Delegate for nearly a year earlier under the guise of Mikes Hope but felt the axe of Deletion for a misguided series of actions.

I believe NewTexas was Delegate during that time too.


As to the remark by the newly created Nation above, I gave up wine and all other alcohol on November 4, 2002 leaving said alternative obsolete.

[WayNeacTia]

Mikeswill, that is good that is good.

The realm is (still) in good hands. Good. Good.

Imagine a situation you would have been consumed about 1000-1500 pints of beer during your last half year of delegacy. Its notoriously hard to watch those damn immigrants, twice per day. Better be sober.

Nothing against you, but when you go to a mundane counting of days in The NationStates, you're maybe ready for a vacation. As far as we can see, you're already near the edge.

Just drop. Everything will be easier thereafter.

Why don't you go grind that axe somewhere else? Either that or post on your main nation.

[Kuriko]

Oh god, here we go with the WA Elite thing again. There's no such thing as a WA Elite, and that falacy really needs to end. There are multiple big delegates that vote based upon a democratic forum poll, 10000 Islands and TNP to name two of them.

[Anglia-Saxia]

Yeah,pretty sure that an resolution which is open to all nations to vote is ''manipulated'' by the ''WA Elite''.

[Miporin]

Oh god, here we go with the WA Elite thing again. There's no such thing as a WA Elite, and that falacy really needs to end. There are multiple big delegates that vote based upon a democratic forum poll, 10000 Islands and TNP to name two of them.

to be fair, TNP's delegate, at the very least, is not required to follow the forum vote, and has decided not to in the recent past

[Kuriko]

Oh god, here we go with the WA Elite thing again. There's no such thing as a WA Elite, and that falacy really needs to end. There are multiple big delegates that vote based upon a democratic forum poll, 10000 Islands and TNP to name two of them.

to be fair, TNP's delegate, at the very least, is not required to follow the forum vote, and has decided not to in the recent past

10000 Islands isn't required to follow the forum vote either, we just do it out of respect for our communities wishes.

[Fahran]

Leaning towards a no vote on this one. Overly flowery language notwithstanding, the case can be made that Mikeswill's accomplishment only stands because mainstream raiding organisations refused to touch it- for a long time, he reciprocated by sending occasional military support through Ile de France.

Meanwhile, other delegates with similarly long tenures found themselves targeted and unseated, notably those of Antarctica, Texas, and Forest. Not to mention a concerted effort to pull down yet more delegacies by TBH- with NationStates once again left untouched.

Is the accomplishment still impressive? Sure. Does it deserve to be commended, given it's largely only happened due to the goodwill of condemnable groups? Not so much.

Related note - NewTexas of Texas will in a couple days hit the same 15 years, even when accounting for 1.5 days out of office due to 3 prior TBH-led dethronings.

Interesting. I've got a bit of fondness for Texas as a region and I wouldn't be adverse to a commendation of their delegate if a similar achievement can be documented.

To address the earlier accusations, I believe the argument regarding Mikeswill retaining his delegacy this long principally due to collaboration with condemnable organizations, who I shall not at this time name, bears greater consideration as an argument to vote against the resolution at vote. The accomplishment itself is commendable, though, it seems, the means by which it was achieved were not.

[Sensorland]

While I'm certainly not against the idea of commending Mikeswill, and I don't really think the author of a proposal actually matters when considering whether to vote for it, I ultimately have to go against this proposal, simply on the basis that the potential commendee has himself voted against it.

[Kaboomlandia]

Related note - NewTexas of Texas will in a couple days hit the same 15 years, even when accounting for 1.5 days out of office due to 3 prior TBH-led dethronings.

Interesting. I've got a bit of fondness for Texas as a region and I wouldn't be adverse to a commendation of their delegate if a similar achievement can be documented.

To address the earlier accusations, I believe the argument regarding Mikeswill retaining his delegacy this long principally due to collaboration with condemnable organizations, who I shall not at this time name, bears greater consideration as an argument to vote against the resolution at vote. The accomplishment itself is commendable, though, it seems, the means by which it was achieved were not.

Both Texas and NewTexas already have commendations that are significantly more substantial than "was delegate for a long time".

[Jocospor]

I see I was mistaken about Mikeswill not wanting the commendation. I was planning to still vote against this because a Regional Officer in NationStates had engaged in petty embassy closures over it, but it looks like that person went a bit rogue, as Mikeswill has cancelled the embassy closures in question.

I've switched my vote to being for this, not that it will matter. To those voting against it, if you're voting against it because you think it's hypocritical to give Mikeswill a commendation based on his opposition to the Security Council, I think that's valid -- though I disagree. If, on the other hand, you are voting against it because Jocospor is the author, I have argued in the recent past we shouldn't oppose General Assembly proposals based exclusively on their authorship, and I have to insist on a similar standard in the Security Council. The petty personalization that is spreading from gameplay and now infecting other parts of this game desperately needs to be rolled back. I don't care that Jocospor is the author. The proposal is decent enough to pass, and considerations about its authorship alone really shouldn't factor into it. Let's stop with all this personalized crap.

Elites voting based on authorship and the author not being part of the gameplay in-crowd are, ironically, validating everything both Mikeswill and Jocospor have always said about the Security Council, and everything lots of people are saying about gameplay these days. Congratulations for that, I guess.

OOC: Thank you for your objectivity.

[Jocospor]

I see I was mistaken about Mikeswill not wanting the commendation. I was planning to still vote against this because a Regional Officer in NationStates had engaged in petty embassy closures over it, but it looks like that person went a bit rogue, as Mikeswill has cancelled the embassy closures in question.

I've switched my vote to being for this, not that it will matter. To those voting against it, if you're voting against it because you think it's hypocritical to give Mikeswill a commendation based on his opposition to the Security Council, I think that's valid -- though I disagree. If, on the other hand, you are voting against it because Jocospor is the author, I have argued in the recent past we shouldn't oppose General Assembly proposals based exclusively on their authorship, and I have to insist on a similar standard in the Security Council. The petty personalization that is spreading from gameplay and now infecting other parts of this game desperately needs to be rolled back. I don't care that Jocospor is the author. The proposal is decent enough to pass, and considerations about its authorship alone really shouldn't factor into it. Let's stop with all this personalized crap.

Elites voting based on authorship and the author not being part of the gameplay in-crowd are, ironically, validating everything both Mikeswill and Jocospor have always said about the Security Council, and everything lots of people are saying about gameplay these days. Congratulations for that, I guess.

You seem to be missing one singular point here. Jocospor is only doing this as part of his grand badge hunt. There was zero emergency on this one. He could have done his research and posted a draft. There was nothing stopping him from posting this weeks ago, so it could have been worked on and fine tuned if Joscospor was actually acting in good faith on this.

OOC: This is unreasonable. You can't blame me for the idea not coming to mind earlier just because I don't spend every waking hour thinking about NationStates. This only popped into my head two days ago. The "emergency" was to get this to vote on the same day that Mike turned 15, for the added effect. We actually did that, so I'm considering that in itself a small victory. Regarding good faith, I have been in direct communication with Mike over this. My faith is very good.

Achieving badges has never really been my agenda when the WA is concerned. Rather, I've exploited it to the advantage of my region. Being a normal member of some sinker, I wouldn't expect you to understand the amount of work that goes into building, maintaining and growing your own region. (That Mike has done this for 15yrs is simply incredible). Recruitment telegrams are not always effective. That's why when I began to understand that the WA could be used as one large billboard I jumped on it. I was right to do so. Now I have a liberation which will not be repealed but can be flung up as advertisement at any time. For the most part, my exploitation has been of advantage to my region, my sole priority, even if it hasn't been of advantage to me.

Putting words in my mouth, whether its "You're a fash! You're a badgehunter!" is, honestly, just tiresome rhetoric at this point. Ironically, I used the "badgehunting" argument years ago to attack Imperium Anglorum, but have since abandoned it (for the most part) because the community brought to my attention that it's a fallacy. I would encourage some people on here to revisits those threads.

[Praeceps]

Oh god, here we go with the WA Elite thing again. There's no such thing as a WA Elite, and that falacy really needs to end. There are multiple big delegates that vote based upon a democratic forum poll, 10000 Islands and TNP to name two of them.

to be fair, TNP's delegate, at the very least, is not required to follow the forum vote, and has decided not to in the recent past

Can you define what is the recent past?

[Imperium Anglorum]

I see I was mistaken about Mikeswill not wanting the commendation.

Contingent on this being and continuing to be the case, I vote in favour of the proposal.

[Jocospor]

I see I was mistaken about Mikeswill not wanting the commendation.

Contingent on this being and continuing to be the case, I vote in favour of the proposal.

(OOC: I dropped my phone when I read this.)

Well, I've taken screenshots!

[Concrete Slab]

Doesn't look like this is going to win...

[Castelia]

Doesn't look like this is going to win...

Well, considering that this proposal was for Mikeswill's 15th year as delegate, it doesn't have to. Mikeswill gets a win either way.

If the vote suddenly goes to 'For', he gets a fancy badge. And so does Jocospor.
If the vote stays as it is, he proves his point that "the process is a popularity contest controlled by the powered elite devoid of merit.", " their ability to immediately Repeal almost any Resolution not authored by themselves.", and "proving the farce that is the Security Council."

Like i said, either way, Mikeswill wins. All the cards are in his hands. One result just so happens to benefit Jocospor. And the rest all mainly proves his and his own points

Of course, I would prefer it if the proposal passes.

[Sllonsonnopia]

You seem to be missing one singular point here. Jocospor is only doing this as part of his grand badge hunt. There was zero emergency on this one. He could have done his research and posted a draft. There was nothing stopping him from posting this weeks ago, so it could have been worked on and fine tuned if Joscospor was actually acting in good faith on this.

Does it matter what intensions the author have, if it is or not just a badge hunt? Isn't this forum solely for discussing the merit or lack thereof of the resolution and wether the arguments presented in the resolution convince a pass or not?

[WayNeacTia]

Contingent on this being and continuing to be the case, I vote in favour of the proposal.

(OOC: I dropped my phone when I read this.)

Well, I've taken screenshots!

It's dead man. Even Mike voted against it.

You seem to be missing one singular point here. Jocospor is only doing this as part of his grand badge hunt. There was zero emergency on this one. He could have done his research and posted a draft. There was nothing stopping him from posting this weeks ago, so it could have been worked on and fine tuned if Joscospor was actually acting in good faith on this.

Does it matter what intensions the author have, if it is or not just a badge hunt? Isn't this forum solely for discussing the merit or lack thereof of the resolution and wether the arguments presented in the resolution convince a pass or not?

You must be new here. A proposals author is as much of a determining factor as the proposal itself. Unfortunately Jocospor not only wore out his credibility with the security council, he stomped it into the dirt, and then salted that dirt.

[The New California Republic]

Does it matter what intensions the author have, if it is or not just a badge hunt? Isn't this forum solely for discussing the merit or lack thereof of the resolution and wether the arguments presented in the resolution convince a pass or not?

Oh sweet summer child...