[Defeated] Repeal "Reproductive Freedoms"

[Christian Democrats]

If fetuses were to be granted rights, it would become the legal duty of the criminal justice system to investigate every single woman suffering a miscarriage or any kind of pregnancy complication for criminal negligence or even assault.

That's a silly argument. Every time an old person dies, the state doesn't open a criminal investigation against the caregiver.

[Attempted Socialism]

If fetuses were to be granted rights, it would become the legal duty of the criminal justice system to investigate every single woman suffering a miscarriage or any kind of pregnancy complication for criminal negligence or even assault.

That's a silly argument. Every time an old person dies, the state doesn't open a criminal investigation against the caregiver.

Well, no. But the state will do so if it is suspected that the caregiver is somehow at fault, either deliberately or through negligence. The state will also usually investigate the cause of death even if no foul play is suspected. If, for example, a person is on life support and it is turned off, the state will certainly ascertain whether it was negligence, murder or something else. Here, since the suggestion was to grant foetuses personhood and outlaw abortions, the effect will be the investigation of every period by a sexually active woman and every miscarriage or complication during pregnancy for women, in addition to actually suspected abortions. The consequence of foetal personhood is absurdly moronic in part because it would criminalise basically all sexually active women, monthly.

[Christian Democrats]

The consequence of foetal personhood is absurdly moronic in part because it would criminalise basically all sexually active women, monthly.

If you actually believe that, I suspect you're past the point where you can be reasonably persuaded. (I hope that's not the case.)

[Attempted Socialism]

The consequence of foetal personhood is absurdly moronic in part because it would criminalise basically all sexually active women, monthly.

If you actually believe that, I suspect you're past the point where you can be reasonably persuaded. (I hope that's not the case.)

I... don't believe it. It's not a matter of belief. I am convinced by the nature of the law and I have seen the contest over the personhood bills proposed across the US south. I also find it hilarious coming from you on this topic.

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

That's a silly argument. Every time an old person dies, the state doesn't open a criminal investigation against the caregiver.

Well, no. But the state will do so if it is suspected that the caregiver is somehow at fault, either deliberately or through negligence. The state will also usually investigate the cause of death even if no foul play is suspected. If, for example, a person is on life support and it is turned off, the state will certainly ascertain whether it was negligence, murder or something else. Here, since the suggestion was to grant foetuses personhood and outlaw abortions, the effect will be the investigation of every period by a sexually active woman and every miscarriage or complication during pregnancy for women, in addition to actually suspected abortions. The consequence of foetal personhood is absurdly moronic in part because it would criminalise basically all sexually active women, monthly.

OOC: there's a difference between criminalisation and investigation.
Also that's a straw man

[Sierra Lyricalia]

The consequence of foetal personhood is absurdly moronic in part because it would criminalise basically all sexually active women, monthly.

If you actually believe that, I suspect you're past the point where you can be reasonably persuaded. (I hope that's not the case.)

I think the specific claim cited here is a bit much for all but the most orcish nations, but legally speaking if fetuses were recognized as persons, at minimum the police would have to ask routine questions following up on the medical examiner's report - of the woman who miscarried, of her OB/GYN and general practitioner, of her significant other, and of other acquaintances. If they did not do this as they do for every death of a born person, they would not be treating all persons equally under the law.

And I don't know any woman who, having miscarried, would treat any such questions with any response other than GO FUCK YOURSELF. Possibly including the epithet "pig."

And rightly so.

edited a couple times for clarity

[Aclion]

If you actually believe that, I suspect you're past the point where you can be reasonably persuaded. (I hope that's not the case.)

I think the specific claim cited here is a bit much for all but the most orcish nations, but legally speaking if fetuses were recognized as persons, at minimum the police would have to ask routine questions following up on the medical examiner's report - of the woman who miscarried, of her OB/GYN and general practitioner, of her significant other, and of other acquaintances. If they did not do this as they do for every death of a born person, they would not be treating all persons equally under the law.

And I don't know any woman who, having miscarried, would treat any such questions with any response other than GO FUCK YOURSELF. Possibly including the epithet "pig."

And rightly so.

edited a couple times for clarity

Miscarriages would fall under natural deaths, so generally there would be no investigation unless there was something suspect about it.

[Christian Democrats]

I think the specific claim cited here is a bit much for all but the most orcish nations, but legally speaking if fetuses were recognized as persons, at minimum the police would have to ask routine questions following up on the medical examiner's report - of the woman who miscarried, of her OB/GYN and general practitioner, of her significant other, and of other acquaintances. If they did not do this as they do for every death of a born person, they would not be treating all persons equally under the law.

And I don't know any woman who, having miscarried, would treat any such questions with any response other than GO FUCK YOURSELF. Possibly including the epithet "pig."

And rightly so.

edited a couple times for clarity

Miscarriages would fall under natural deaths, so generally there would be no investigation unless there was something suspect about it.

Indeed. The government does not investigate "every death of a born person." Most deaths by natural causes are certified as a matter of course by a physician. The Real World of United States is a good example:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_cod.pdf

What's more, there are already laws in place for reporting fetal deaths:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

Like elderly people, unborn people are a class that dies by natural causes fairly often. As physicians do now, they would report deaths to the government. An investigation into the cause of death would make sense only if there were some reasonable suspicion of criminal misconduct.

Would the government miss some illegal abortions? Yes, it would. Does the government miss some homicides of elderly persons? Yes, it does. Even when the government identifies a death by unlawful homicide, the criminal often goes free:

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/24/17896034/murder-crime-clearance-fbi-report

These are all problems of enforcement rather than problems of law. Contrary to the dark fantasies of abortion's proponents, some of whom spend too many hours watching The Handmaid's Tale, there's no reason to believe that the government would expend limited and valuable resources on investigations into fetal deaths, unless there were a reasonable suspicion of homicide. The same as now.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

Miscarriages would fall under natural deaths, so generally there would be no investigation unless there was something suspect about it.

...
Like elderly people, unborn people are a class that dies by natural causes fairly often. As physicians do now, they would report deaths to the government. An investigation into the cause of death would make sense only if there were some reasonable suspicion of criminal misconduct.

Would the government miss some illegal abortions? Yes, it would. Does the government miss some homicides of elderly persons? Yes, it does. Even when the government identifies a death by unlawful homicide, the criminal often goes free:

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/24/17896034/murder-crime-clearance-fbi-report

These are all problems of enforcement rather than problems of law. Contrary to the dark fantasies of abortion's proponents, some of whom spend too many hours watching The Handmaid's Tale, there's no reason to believe that the government would expend limited and valuable resources on investigations into fetal deaths, unless there were a reasonable suspicion of homicide. The same as now.

The point is that once fetuses are treated as legal persons, conduct by the pregnant person becomes a possible cause of homicide, and some maternal actions must now be classified as criminal misconduct. Where the ME is unable to cite cause of fetal death as any natural developmental or genetic disorder, or any injury inflicted on the mother by some third party, there must follow some level of investigation. A state that holds fetuses to be persons under the law must protect those persons' rights (that being the entire point of holding them so in the first place). That necessarily includes treating those deaths that can't be immediately explained by natural causes (as well as some that can...) as possible crimes.