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[PASSED] Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy

A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.

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Barbariax
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Aug 08, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Barbariax » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:31 pm

Kenmoria wrote:
Barbariax wrote:
Gratitude to Kenmoria for this assistance, however it is not clear to Barbariax that this resolution requires such affordable, easy-to-access therapies in the same manner as for transgender hormone therapy per the current resolution at vote.

(OOC: You are correct, GA #124 is not as precise. All that Essential Medications requires is that medication is able to be accessed and used; however, this necessarily includes it being affordable to some degree. The reason this proposal has been made is to make protections for hormonal medication more concrete.)


Thanks again to Kenmoria for the clarification and confirmation; as it is then, Barbariax's vote Against this resolution stands.

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Sidhe
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Aug 19, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Sidhe » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:30 pm

"As Her Fair Majesty Titania has already decreed free access to treatment to all mental and physical conditions a basic human right, Sidhe is happy to vote for the world to follow a similar path."

OOC: Of course, given the access to magical forms of gender change in Sidhe, it's less of an issue, but to maintain compliance we will of course make it affordable.
Proud Queen of the Fair Folk.
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Futrellia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1604
Founded: Mar 29, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Futrellia » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:36 pm

Glad I left the Assembly when I did. I don't need the useless regulations to run my nation.

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 14457
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:44 pm

Futrellia wrote:Glad I left the Assembly when I did. I don't need the useless regulations to run my nation.

OOC: Then why bother posting?

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13827
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:01 pm

Barbariax wrote:Barbariax asks Araraukar, or any other nation, to please identify the referenced resolution.

OOC: I'll do one better. I'll teach you where to find it. Go to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30 and use all kinds of search words that you can think of being related to what you want to find (and remember that the system thinks "cat" and "cats" are entirely unrelated words). EDIT: A hint: Kenmoria directed you to the wrong resolution. :P
Last edited by Araraukar on Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lamebrainia
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Posts: 91
Founded: Apr 28, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Lamebrainia » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:06 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:Sounds like their call.
If it's their call, they should be paying for it, not the government.
It is truly a shame and a disgrace that a platform like NationStates that is also used for learning propagates false beliefs. It doesn't do anyone any good, including people suffering from gender dysphoria, which is a real condition and is a mental illness. Statements like the ones made in this WA resolution are ultimately dangerous to the people affected. I know because I have trans friends and because I have a mental illness myself. The first step to treating one is acceptance, not denial. For example, people with depression are more likely to get better if they recognise what they are dealing with as opposed to denying there's anything wrong with them. And yes, gender is not a spectrum.

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 14457
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:25 pm

Lamebrainia wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:Sounds like their call.
If it's their call, they should be paying for it, not the government.
OOC: You can make them pay for it. It just has to be accessible and affordable.

It is truly a shame and a disgrace that a platform like NationStates that is also used for learning propagates false beliefs.

OOC: Near as I can tell, they aren't false beliefs according to the experts involved in diagnosis.
And yes, gender is not a spectrum.

It rather is. Sex isn't but gender expression and identity sure is.

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Sierra Lyricalia
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 3390
Founded: Nov 29, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:29 pm

Lamebrainia wrote:It is truly a shame and a disgrace that a platform like NationStates that is also used for learning propagates false beliefs. It doesn't do anyone any good, including people suffering from gender dysphoria, which is a real condition and is a mental illness. Statements like the ones made in this WA resolution are ultimately dangerous to the people affected. I know because I have trans friends...


OOC: "Integration harms racial minorities. It doesn't do anyone any good to put all ethnicities in the same classroom. I know because I have black friends..."

:roll:
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Mettaton-EX
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 402
Founded: Sep 24, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Mettaton-EX » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:40 pm

Right-Wing Semites wrote:My colleagues here in the Assembly are doing nothing more than virtue signalling to make themselves feel better about their failed leftist states!

probably yeah
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Kardashev III Civilization
Secretary
 
Posts: 33
Founded: Apr 07, 2019
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Kardashev III Civilization » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:57 pm

The obelisk, glowing a dull turquoise, enters the voting hall. "The controversy surrounding this issue escapes me. The facts this resolution puts forward are so undeniable and the policies it sets so straightforward and common sense, that I cannot imagine any good reason to oppose it. What little value primitive tyrants gather from oppressing minority groups such as these is not even practical enough to justify the damage to social cohesion and scientific progress that oppression does to their societies."

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Creslonia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 159
Founded: Oct 27, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Creslonia » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:08 pm

"Creslonia will be voting for this resolution. Whilst the Human Rights Commission agrees with the majority of the requirements, Seth Philips, Chief Officer of the Public-Private Partnerships Office, will have to work with the private sector to provide affordable therapy. However, this resolution provides opportunities for new propositions to the Creslonian Parliament regarding transgender affairs."
- Alexander Finch, Minister of Foreign Affairs
Last edited by Creslonia on Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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West Heisen
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Posts: 17
Founded: Dec 07, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby West Heisen » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:22 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Lamebrainia wrote:If it's their call, they should be paying for it, not the government.
OOC: You can make them pay for it. It just has to be accessible and affordable.

It is truly a shame and a disgrace that a platform like NationStates that is also used for learning propagates false beliefs.

OOC: Near as I can tell, they aren't false beliefs according to the experts involved in diagnosis.
And yes, gender is not a spectrum.

It rather is. Sex isn't but gender expression and identity sure is.

OOC: I had a nice long paragraph which got deleted and I can't be bothered to type it all again. :(
I would argue that there are two genders/sexes, and there is a spectrum of most male to most female behaviour/personality/etc. Regardless of where you are on this spectrum, you are still either male or female. Also what is gender 'identity'? I still fail to grasp the point of it.

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San Felix
Secretary
 
Posts: 31
Founded: Feb 10, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby San Felix » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Lamebrainia wrote:(...) including people suffering from gender dysphoria, which is a real condition and is a mental illness. Statements like the ones made in this WA resolution are ultimately dangerous to the people affected. (...) The first step to treating one is acceptance, not denial. For example, people with depression are more likely to get better if they recognize what they are dealing with as opposed to denying there's anything wrong with them.



Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder because it causes unsatisfactory or stressful feelings for people that feel like their sex (not Gender, science has proven countless times both of these things are different) does not match their gender identity. But the mismatch between body and internal sense of gender is not a mental illness. Instead, what need to be addressed are the stress, anxiety, and depression that go along with it. You're looking at it in the wrong way.

The point of these therapies is to solve the levels of distress and anxiety that people with Gender Dysphoria feel: "The level of distress experienced by someone with gender dysphoria is significant, and individuals do much better if they are in supportive environments, allowed to express their gender in the way that’s most comfortable to them, and are given knowledge that, if necessary, treatments exist to reduce the sense of incongruence they feel."

Hormone treatments have been proved to be highly successful in treating the symptoms. A study shows that 98% of those who had surgery (or therapy) felt it was a positive (or mainly positive experience) and were happy with the outcomes.

We are literally treating their distresses using a method that has been confirmed to be successful, safe and overall a positive experience for the patients, I don't know what else do you want.
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West Heisen
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 17
Founded: Dec 07, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby West Heisen » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:30 pm

I know it's a rather dark subject, but I've heard that transgender suicide rates are virtually unchanged after hormone therapy. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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San Jose Del Este
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Corrupt Dictatorship

NO WAY JOSE

Postby San Jose Del Este » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:48 pm

Homosexuality will not be condoned in any way shape or form by the civilized world. I do not advocate for the harm of anyone based on their sexuality but no money should go to these inmoral causes.

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Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20354
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:09 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:It rather is. Sex isn't but gender expression and identity sure is.

Actually, sex is a spectrum, or at least isn't binary. Consider as examples individuals with unusual sets of sex chromosomes, or unusual expression of the genes on those chromosomes, or nonstandard hormone production. "Bimodal" would more accurately describe sex.
San Jose Del Este wrote:Homosexuality will not be condoned in any way shape or form by the civilized world. I do not advocate for the harm of anyone based on their sexuality but no money should go to these inmoral causes.

This has literally nothing to do with homosexuality, but your bigotry is noted.
Last edited by Wallenburg on Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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West Heisen
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 17
Founded: Dec 07, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby West Heisen » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:27 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:It rather is. Sex isn't but gender expression and identity sure is.

Actually, sex is a spectrum, or at least isn't binary. Consider as examples individuals with unusual sets of sex chromosomes, or unusual expression of the genes on those chromosomes, or nonstandard hormone production. "Bimodal" would more accurately describe sex.
San Jose Del Este wrote:Homosexuality will not be condoned in any way shape or form by the civilized world. I do not advocate for the harm of anyone based on their sexuality but no money should go to these inmoral causes.

This has literally nothing to do with homosexuality, but your bigotry is noted.

Sex is binary; of course there are anomalies, like intersex, but we are taught that humans have 10 fingers, correct? Some are born with more or less, but we teach that the number of fingers humans have is 10. Same goes for sex; there are genetic defects, but people are always all or mostly male or female.

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Kenmoria
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Posts: 5252
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:24 pm

West Heisen wrote:I know it's a rather dark subject, but I've heard that transgender suicide rates are virtually unchanged after hormone therapy. Correct me if I'm wrong.

(OOC: Rates of suicide in the transgender community are extremely high essentially no matter what, but hormone therapy does have a slight reduction, as does counselling (source). Of course, this may not be true in all World Assembly states.)
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NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
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Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Jan 30, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:39 pm

West Heisen wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Actually, sex is a spectrum, or at least isn't binary. Consider as examples individuals with unusual sets of sex chromosomes, or unusual expression of the genes on those chromosomes, or nonstandard hormone production. "Bimodal" would more accurately describe sex.

This has literally nothing to do with homosexuality, but your bigotry is noted.

Sex is binary; of course there are anomalies, like intersex, but we are taught that humans have 10 fingers, correct? Some are born with more or less, but we teach that the number of fingers humans have is 10. Same goes for sex; there are genetic defects, but people are always all or mostly male or female.

That really doesn't matter. They exist. Therefore, sex is not binary.
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD
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Tinfect
Senator
 
Posts: 4729
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Tinfect » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:41 pm

West Heisen wrote:OOC: [...] I would argue that there are two genders/sexes, and there is a spectrum of most male to most female behaviour/personality/etc.


OOC:
You're wrong. Sex itself is a biological condition, but how it is perceived and treated in society is entirely constructed; there's no such thing as 'female behavior' or 'female personalities'. These are not biologically sourced; any statement to the contrary is simply incompatible with reality. Further, it is demonstrably not a binary function or spectrum; human biology is an immensely complex field that cannot be legitimately reduced to a binary spectrum. Gender, while similarly constructed - I'll stop here to note that something being a social construct does not mean that it doesn't exist, it just means that it is something that, while not materially based, is accepted by a society, - is not the same thing as sex.

West Heisen wrote:Also what is gender 'identity'? I still fail to grasp the point of it.


Gender Identity is an unnecessary complication of Gender that frankly serves to delegitimize transpeople's genders as something chosen rather than immutable facts of our selves. And to make my position clear, it, really wouldn't matter even if it was something chosen. Fucking respect people.

West Heisen wrote:I know it's a rather dark subject, but I've heard that transgender suicide rates are virtually unchanged after hormone therapy. Correct me if I'm wrong.


This is literally wrong. It's an oft-peddled myth founded on both malicious misinterpretations of studies, and outright falsified studies. Regardless, as I've mentioned earlier in the thread, the high transgender suicide rate has everything to do with transphobia and rejection, and nothing to do with transition and transition related care. For a personal anecdote, the only reason I'm sitting here writing this to you because you haven't done any actual research of your own, is because I was able to transition. I would not be alive if transition was not an option for me; for most of my life, right up until two years ago, I had lived under the assumption that I would be dead by now. Clearly, HRT and transition has done wonders for me.
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AaronScythe
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 14
Founded: Jul 16, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby AaronScythe » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:56 pm

OOC: May I remind people that quoting something and repeatedly stating no or an equivalent against easily verifiable statements, is anti-debate. Refute or skip, you're not an authority.
Please realize your aggressive statements are far more offensive than any persuasive argument could ever be.
This is why this vote has been called virtue signalling; There's little debate without pure hostility.
Now may I request that people consult google, specific focus on .gov, .med, .org, .edu
Because peer reviewed science and statistics beat any opinion based .com

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Tinfect
Senator
 
Posts: 4729
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Tinfect » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:26 am

AaronScythe wrote:OOC: May I remind people that quoting something and repeatedly stating no or an equivalent against easily verifiable statements, is anti-debate. Refute or skip, you're not an authority.
Please realize your aggressive statements are far more offensive than any persuasive argument could ever be.
This is why this vote has been called virtue signalling; There's little debate without pure hostility.
Now may I request that people consult google, specific focus on .gov, .med, .org, .edu
Because peer reviewed science and statistics beat any opinion based .com


I'm going to be real here, this is basically incoherent. I, and the supporters of this resolution, have on several occasions, posted legitimate references, to the actual authorities on the subject. here's one on transgender suicide if you don't believe me Here's one from the American Psychiatric Association, which is informed directly by the DSM-V, the most modern formalization of the scientific consensus of the psychiatric community. Every single drop of legitimate evidence supports transgender existence and transgender rights. This has been reiterated time and time again, in a million places, in a million different ways.

There is no "debate", there's the actually informed people, and the ignorant/bigoted. The former can be fixed; the latter is not worth engaging.

Here's an idea. Do some damn research yourself, and stop spouting nonsense then whining that people are being mean to you when they're explaining basic, easily verifiable facts for the millionth time.
Last edited by Tinfect on Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: Aeravahn occupy 1/5 of Exterior Territories, battered Third Fleet withdrawn from combat | Dejected Intelligence Operative enrolled in children's school, claims 'punishment for disobeying orders' | Experimental agricultural fungus accidentally released in New Kol, infects plant life, HLE teams deployed to remove infected plants | Indomitable Bastard #283
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West Heisen
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 17
Founded: Dec 07, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby West Heisen » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:13 am

Tinfect,
OOC: It's great that HRT and transition worked for you, and I merely asked the question because I have seen evidence (reputable or not is the issue) both supporting and falsifying it. However, there are biological differences between men and women which lead to different behaviour, personality, lifestyle, whatever you want to call it, regardless of society. Even in the most egalitarian and non-'traditional gender role' places clear differences arise between men and women, so clearly it is biological.

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13827
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:41 am

West Heisen wrote:Tinfect,
OOC: It's great that HRT and transition worked for you, and I merely asked the question because I have seen evidence (reputable or not is the issue) both supporting and falsifying it. However, there are biological differences between men and women which lead to different behaviour, personality, lifestyle, whatever you want to call it, regardless of society. Even in the most egalitarian and non-'traditional gender role' places clear differences arise between men and women, so clearly it is biological.

OOC: You have evidence to the contrary? Provide it then, please. And what are these gender role differences that are biological? And more importantly, whose traditions? Different cultures have different ideas of gender roles, which further proves that they're not biology-based.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

User avatar
West Heisen
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 17
Founded: Dec 07, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby West Heisen » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:39 am

Araraukar wrote:
West Heisen wrote:Tinfect,
OOC: It's great that HRT and transition worked for you, and I merely asked the question because I have seen evidence (reputable or not is the issue) both supporting and falsifying it. However, there are biological differences between men and women which lead to different behaviour, personality, lifestyle, whatever you want to call it, regardless of society. Even in the most egalitarian and non-'traditional gender role' places clear differences arise between men and women, so clearly it is biological.

OOC: You have evidence to the contrary? Provide it then, please. And what are these gender role differences that are biological? And more importantly, whose traditions? Different cultures have different ideas of gender roles, which further proves that they're not biology-based.

Certainly, here is some of the evidence which I have seen:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/02/ ... stem-grads
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... gy/568087/
https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/politic ... wo-canada/

I was referring to Western traditions, as that is where I live. I acknowledge that there are differences with other cultures, but often many similarities, in terms of gender roles, can be drawn as well, such as in the case of Christianity and Islam.

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