[PASSED] Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy

[Separatist Peoples]

Bilge

OOC: I was giving advice to the author, not communicating with you. ICly and OOCly. I like being on your ignore list.

[Scherzinger]

Bilge

OOC: I was giving advice to the author, not communicating with you. ICly and OOCly. I like being on your ignore list.

OOC: so instead of looking at the argument, youre just gonna go straight to my personal parts, pretty ignorant, but whatever, i cant change you, and you wont change me.

[Novo Abrahamia]

Only a demonized brain would launch that issue. it's sick and ungodly. An insult to our Lord and Savior.

In Novo Abrahamia "transgenderness" is treated as a mental illness. No matter that the WA decides it's gonna stay that way.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: I was giving advice to the author, not communicating with you. ICly and OOCly. I like being on your ignore list.

OOC: so instead of looking at the argument, youre just gonna go straight to my personal parts, pretty ignorant, but whatever, i cant change you, and you wont change me.

OOC: The roleplaying wasn't personal. Anything directed at you the player was objective fact. You lack the power, one way or another, to do anything about this proposal, and the author need not worry about your support or opposition.

BTW,

First and foremost, the issue of Religion, which, in a good chunk of nations, tends to be the leadership, i.e. theocracies, religious monarchies/republics and so on. In most religions, where God is an almighty figure, and his written word is the law of the land, trannies are forbidden from heaven. This includes homosexuals, actual satanists, capitalists, those who commit crimes, etc. Mutilation of the body is a slap in God's face, as, supposedly, your body, as well as whom you are, is supposed to be God's image of you. While an atheist myself and admittedly somewhat ill-read on religious texts, i am quite familiar with those that gods claim to love and hate. If this proposal becomes law, this would violate the basic freedoms of expression of religion, as well as the ability to follow religious practices freely. Assuming that you follow some of the basic rights that were laws in America, where the 1st Amendment is sacred, you will, simply put, outlaw part of your rights to your people.

OOC: I'm no expert, I've just got a doctorate on this, but I can tell you that this wouldn't constitute a 1st Amendment violation religion. Such a law neither impermissible entangles religion with government nor prohibits the exercise of religion. It would be a law of general applicability. People are free to do as they please in accordance with their religions under this law. Nations may not, but nations don't have substantive individual rights under WA law

[Scherzinger]

Only a demonized brain would launch that issue. it's sick and ungodly. An insult to our Lord and Savior.

In Novo Abrahamia "transgenderness" is treated as a mental illness. No matter that the WA decides it's gonna stay that way.

careful friend, there are plenty of people here who are more than happy to insult you, most the people here, from what i observe, are radical liberals

[Saciu]

These comments on "freedom of religious expression" are complete bs. Why is their freedom to discriminate upheld, but not trans people's right to go though potentially life-saving treatment? Yes, we get that your religion is massively flawed. You don't need to ruin people's lives because of this.

This is exactly why we need to vote yes on this: so that trans people in ignorant nations can get the treatment that they need.

[Wallenburg]

OOC: I was giving advice to the author, not communicating with you. ICly and OOCly. I like being on your ignore list.

OOC: so instead of looking at the argument, youre just gonna go straight to my personal parts, pretty ignorant, but whatever, i cant change you, and you wont change me.

The idea of an ignore list is that you ignore the people on them.

[Mundiferrum]

We see the need to remind everyone *unreasonably* against this proposal of other, still un-repealed resolutions. And until those are repealed, which they probably won't, please consider existing laws, and *leave*, if you are so offended.

A Convention on Gender
A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.

Category: Human Rights
Strength: Significant
Proposed by: Sionis Prioratus

Description: AWED by the progress the World Assembly has made in Civil Rights;

AWARE that in spite of said progress, there are still persons who, while free from discrimination, are denied their basic self-sense of personhood & identity, an abuse often beginning in the earliest infancy;

FURTHER AWARE said denials are a source of untold countless horrors, among them depression & suicide;

DESIROUS of eliminating those horrors;

IT IS ESTABLISHED:

1) Definitions:

• “Majoritarian genders (MG)”: The most prevalent genders found on any given sapient species (e.g. female & male) defined not only by genetic and/or anatomical features, but also by cultural roles each culture usually ascribes them. This resolution does not in any way deny that many sapient species do not have dichotomy in gender; but may differ in number of prevalent genders;
• “Intersex persons”: Due to genetic variations, cannot be assigned to any MG by evidence of genetic and/or anatomical features;
• “Transgender persons”: Born in a given MG, their basic self-sense of personhood & identity belong in another MG;
• “Intergender persons”: Self-identify as belonging to more than one MG at once, or not belonging to any MG at all; may express combinations of MG attributes, or none at all; also may have any MG features;
• “Gender-adequation procedure (GAP)”: Medical procedures seeking to assign to intersex, transgender or intergender persons gender-related anatomical and/or genetic features needed to fit in a person-centered adequate gender.

2) No intersex, transgender or intergender person shall be considered diseased by the sole reason of being intersex, transgender or intergender;

3) No nation can prohibit GAPs to intersex, transgender or intergender persons; nor can they be prohibited to travel to other nations for the sole reason of seeking GAPs in said nations; nor can return be denied for the sole reason of having had GAPs;

4) No intersex, transgender or intergender person shall be forced to choose to fit in any gender; persons are free to keep whatever life-compatible features Nature gave them. They shall be recognized as “intersex” (or culturally equivalent gender terms) if documents require gender identification;

5) Full recognition shall be given to gender changes & intersex/gender status in international/national personal documents, if they mention gender;

6) No intersex, transgender or intergender persons of any age shall have GAPs until they are mature enough to make an informed decision regarding their own future;

7) Intersex, transgender & intergender persons shall be:

a) Provided access to a list of expert GAP providers, as well as peer support, before & after GAPs. Said support shall also be provided to intersex, transgender & intergender persons who choose not to have GAPs;

b) Consistently told the truth, within the limits of their advisors’ knowledge and belief (including providers’ honesty about uncertainty) & given copies of their medical records as soon & as often as they ask for them;

c) Allowed to have GAPs after they have been informed of the risks & benefits (plus evidence, or lack thereof, for both).

Votes For: 3,363
Votes Against: 2,560

Implemented Wed Apr 28 2010

[WAR91 on NS] [WAR91 on NSwiki] [Official Debate Topic]

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: so instead of looking at the argument, youre just gonna go straight to my personal parts, pretty ignorant, but whatever, i cant change you, and you wont change me.

The idea of an ignore list is that you ignore the people on them.

OOC: It doesn't matter. I am an asshole. And an idiot. Just not about this particular suite of topics.

[Saciu]

OOC: Sorry if I become a bit annoyed at some of the more transphobic viewpoints. Being afflicted with gender dysphoria myself, it kind of sucks when people refer to potentially life saving treatment for me as a crime against God etc.

[Attanius]

OOC: Violent?

i believe he means violent in terms of the aggressiveness or the scale of the comment made, not actual bloodshed

Yup

[Scherzinger]

OOC: so instead of looking at the argument, youre just gonna go straight to my personal parts, pretty ignorant, but whatever, i cant change you, and you wont change me.

OOC: The roleplaying wasn't personal. Anything directed at you the player was objective fact. You lack the power, one way or another, to do anything about this proposal, and the author need not worry about your support or opposition.

BTW,

First and foremost, the issue of Religion, which, in a good chunk of nations, tends to be the leadership, i.e. theocracies, religious monarchies/republics and so on. In most religions, where God is an almighty figure, and his written word is the law of the land, trannies are forbidden from heaven. This includes homosexuals, actual satanists, capitalists, those who commit crimes, etc. Mutilation of the body is a slap in God's face, as, supposedly, your body, as well as whom you are, is supposed to be God's image of you. While an atheist myself and admittedly somewhat ill-read on religious texts, i am quite familiar with those that gods claim to love and hate. If this proposal becomes law, this would violate the basic freedoms of expression of religion, as well as the ability to follow religious practices freely. Assuming that you follow some of the basic rights that were laws in America, where the 1st Amendment is sacred, you will, simply put, outlaw part of your rights to your people.

OOC: I'm no expert, I've just got a doctorate on this, but I can tell you that this wouldn't constitute a 1st Amendment violation religion. Such a law neither impermissible entangles religion with government nor prohibits the exercise of religion. It would be a law of general applicability. People are free to do as they please in accordance with their religions under this law. Nations may not, but nations don't have substantive individual rights under WA law

OOC: riiight just like you have a doctorate in every other issue that has come to the table. Look flaunting a piece of paper in my face doesnt really mean that you are always right. Education is replacing an empty mind with an open one. Not replacing an ignorant mind with one that believes its status as a DR. puts him above everybody else, as well as always right.

OOC2: the roleplaying is really just annoying, as it seems as if youre putting your personal insults toward me under enough of an rp veil that the mods wont deem it report worthy, in any case, i would be happy to talk this about with you in TG, and, perhaps hopefully find some sort of peace, but i doubt youll read this part.

[Scherzinger]

OOC: so instead of looking at the argument, youre just gonna go straight to my personal parts, pretty ignorant, but whatever, i cant change you, and you wont change me.

The idea of an ignore list is that you ignore the people on them.

no way? Believe it or not, i respect the guy enough to 'un-ignore' him, so that he may present his own arguments. Whether they be insults or actual parts of the proposal. Just because i dont like him, and my thoughts about him are somewhat irrationally biased, doesnt mean that i am going to ignore the actual statements on the issue. I despise you just as much, but allow you the same right to talk to me

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: riiight just like you have a doctorate in every other issue that has come to the table. Look flaunting a piece of paper in my face doesnt really mean that you are always right. Education is replacing an empty mind with an open one. Not replacing an ignorant mind with one that believes its status as a DR. puts him above everybody else, as well as always right.

OOC: You are on Discord? Hit me up in the WA Discord. I'll cheerfully prove it. I suspect it would be easier by far to communicate outside of the clunky telegram system.

In this case, you've misstated US Constitutional Law, which I am pretty well versed in. I'll freely admit that any knowledge on transgender issues comes from sources in which I have no degree.

OOC2: the roleplaying is really just annoying, as it seems as if youre putting your personal insults toward me under enough of an rp veil that the mods wont deem it report worthy, in any case, i would be happy to talk this about with you in TG, and, perhaps hopefully find some sort of peace, but i doubt youll read this part.

OOC: This is an IC forum, and your ambassador hasn't done any ambassador-y things. Clearly, ambassadors who deal with this will be frustrated at your lack of compliance or adherence to diplomatic norms. I have little opinion on you one way or another.

[Catsfern]

Question, are we permitted to allow the national market for the service of hormone therapy to determine an “affordable price” or will there be a set maximum we will be required to adhere to.

[Kuominwave]

Kuominwave's WA representatives have shared their concerns, believing that nations have no obligation to provide this so-called 'therapy', especially when transgender individuals in Kuominwave represent such a tiny minority. Additionally, Kuominwave's Central Administration maintains the idea that the rights of conservative-leaning nations to oppress any minority they desire to shall not be infringed upon.

[Scherzinger]

OOC: riiight just like you have a doctorate in every other issue that has come to the table. Look flaunting a piece of paper in my face doesnt really mean that you are always right. Education is replacing an empty mind with an open one. Not replacing an ignorant mind with one that believes its status as a DR. puts him above everybody else, as well as always right.

OOC: You are on Discord? Hit me up in the WA Discord. I'll cheerfully prove it. I suspect it would be easier by far to communicate outside of the clunky telegram system.

In this case, you've misstated US Constitutional Law, which I am pretty well versed in. I'll freely admit that any knowledge on transgender issues comes from sources in which I have no degree.

OOC2: the roleplaying is really just annoying, as it seems as if youre putting your personal insults toward me under enough of an rp veil that the mods wont deem it report worthy, in any case, i would be happy to talk this about with you in TG, and, perhaps hopefully find some sort of peace, but i doubt youll read this part.

OOC: This is an IC forum, and your ambassador hasn't done any ambassador-y things. Clearly, ambassadors who deal with this will be frustrated at your lack of compliance or adherence to diplomatic norms. I have little opinion on you one way or another.

Im just sayinig that i doubt it. Ill happily take you at your word for it. While again, im not quite all that fond of you, ive never really believed you a lair. Honestly, i prefer you just TG me your discord info, cause im not going to put what in my opinion is an infectious server on my discord so it can ping me every 3.5 seconds.

If theyre frustrated they can leave it to themselves, not shout it from the rooftops. Instead they can convince me, with honest debate and reasoning, into changing my opinion. Yes, i do as i please here, because most of these laws are a bunch of crud focused on putting ahead a nations personal agend over that of the other side. What you people fail to realise is that there is an opposing side to democracy, but instead of recognizing that, want to slowly force them to democratic nations

I am not familiar with US law, just the bits and pieces that i am told. Im from NeuBrandenburg, Germany, and the only reason im a US citizen is because my parent are citizens on this god forsaken rock. I for one think that the dissent in the US is rather shameful, and attributes to one of the many reasons the US seems to be slipping into 2nd and 3rd world status.

[Kenmoria]

Question, are we permitted to allow the national market for the service of hormone therapy to determine an “affordable price” or will there be a set maximum we will be required to adhere to.

(OOC: So long as the national market creates an affordable price, one that the majority of the populace will be able to afford without excessive difficulty, your nation will be in compliance with this proposal.)

[Separatist Peoples]

Im just sayinig that i doubt it. Ill happily take you at your word for it. While again, im not quite all that fond of you, ive never really believed you a lair. Honestly, i prefer you just TG me your discord info, cause im not going to put what in my opinion is an infectious server on my discord so it can ping me every 3.5 seconds.

That is fair. Will do.

If theyre frustrated they can leave it to themselves, not shout it from the rooftops. Instead they can convince me, with honest debate and reasoning, into changing my opinion. Yes, i do as i please here, because most of these laws are a bunch of crud focused on putting ahead a nations personal agend over that of the other side. What you people fail to realise is that there is an opposing side to democracy, but instead of recognizing that, want to slowly force them to democratic nations

You do understand, however, why this behavior is met with negativity? The collective roleplay and resolution writing is rendered meaningless without participation in the belief that resolutions are binding. Otherwise, the point of the game is nonexistant. Now, nobody says you have to support or agree with the resolutions, or even that you need to pretend compliance elsewhere, but when you post in the GA forum about noncompliance, you're going to get flak when you ignore the community standards. While I know counter-democratic opinions are not pleasantly received, that is not why you get such scorn from the regulars here. We deal with nondemocratic nations pleasantly all the time.

[Wallenburg]

I despise you just as much, but allow you the same right to talk to me

Aw, shucks, I'm honored. I was worried that IA and Sep were the only people you hated here, but now that I know I am just as revolting to you as Sep I feel much better.

[United Vegan Communes]

The UVC fully supports Trans rights and believes for the mental wellbeing of all trans folks who decide they want hormones this is vital to save life’s and change them for the better, any Trans person will be welcome and safe with us

[Ard al Islam]

No. Hell no. I left the WA for this shit.

OOC: Then why do you care? You aren't affected.

No, it does affect me. That resolution is sure to win. I had to leave so my nation wouldn't be corrupted.

[Ard al Islam]

Hey, can y'all stop bad mouthing me? I just left the WA so its legislation wouldn't apply to my nation. And that had nothing to do with politics or beliefs; this is a fucking game, for God's sake!

Although I'll admit, I was inspired to do this when representatives from Muslim countries in the real-world UN walked out of a meeting talking about gay rights.

[Stalliongrad and Far-Eastern Territories]

The Socialist Republic has cast its vote in favour of this motion. Let all take note that the worker's struggle must include all people who face injustice and discrimination of any kind.

[Separatist Peoples]

Hey, can y'all stop bad mouthing me? I just left the WA so its legislation wouldn't apply to my nation. And that had nothing to do with politics or beliefs; this is a fucking game, for God's sake!

Although I'll admit, I was inspired to do this when representatives from Muslim countries in the real-world UN walked out of a meeting talking about gay rights.

OOC: Nobody is badmouthing you. We're asking why it matters in the least what the WA does if you're not part of it.