NationStates

Wallenburg wrote:

Christian Democrats wrote:Imposing artificial hormones on healthy children, who can in no real sense provide consent, is unethical.

Imposing vaccines on healthy children, who can in no real sense provide consent, is unethical.

Uh oh, check that out, now they're dead from measles.

Christian Democrats wrote:The key difference, Ambassador, is that vaccination is not unsafe. Artificial hormones, on the other hand, increase risks for numerous health conditions, including but not limited to cancer, cardiovascular disease, sterility, obesity, gallstones, hyperkalemia, and polycythemia.

Imposing vaccines on healthy children is not unlike imposing fruits and vegetables on healthy children.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:[drivel]

Tinfect wrote:

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:[drivel]

OOC:
Congratulations, literally every single thing you said there is factually wrong.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:OOC: If it were you would have refuted it.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:Transgender is not real.

Tinfect wrote:

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:OOC: If it were you would have refuted it.

OOC:
I refute it on a near daily basis whenever people like you come up spouting the same lines of nonsense. Try doing some actual basic research; there's no excuse to demand that it be laid out nicely for you when countless people have already done so.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:Transgender is not real.

Yes it is. I'm trans, I'm real, being trans is real.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:You are whatever you were born as.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:Anything else is not identity but delusion. I too have debated this numerous times with people and found they lack anything substantiating beyond semantics. But given I am taking this from a self-identified communist, I should not be expecting rationality.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:"What with there being no evidence whatsoever for the idea of transgenderism beyond the psychological disorder known as gender dysphoria, and that there us no evidence observed suicidality rates decrease following proposed 'treatment', the SFLE feels that this proposal acts in dangerous ignorance of the condition suffered by those it purports to speak in the interest of.

"Transgender is not an identity or orientation with rights or privileges anymore than depression or schizophrenia are. The SFLE is committed to treating afflicted people so that they are not threatened by the massive suicide rate, and that they can live a normal life. We see this proposal as nothing more than a condemnation of vulnerable people to suffering and death, and wholeheartedly condemn it."

Bananaistan wrote:

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:"What with there being no evidence whatsoever for the idea of transgenderism beyond the psychological disorder known as gender dysphoria, and that there us no evidence observed suicidality rates decrease following proposed 'treatment', the SFLE feels that this proposal acts in dangerous ignorance of the condition suffered by those it purports to speak in the interest of.

"Transgender is not an identity or orientation with rights or privileges anymore than depression or schizophrenia are. The SFLE is committed to treating afflicted people so that they are not threatened by the massive suicide rate, and that they can live a normal life. We see this proposal as nothing more than a condemnation of vulnerable people to suffering and death, and wholeheartedly condemn it."

"You can take your ignorance of reality (and ignorance of existing international law see GAR#91) and shove it. We don't care to listen to the nonsensical ramblings of those who fail to meet their obligations under international law."

Tinfect wrote:

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:You are whatever you were born as.

OOC:
You're right! I was born female and sadly misidentified at birth! Fortunately, after 20 years I was able to fix the flawed gender marker on my birth certificate!

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:Anything else is not identity but delusion. I too have debated this numerous times with people and found they lack anything substantiating beyond semantics. But given I am taking this from a self-identified communist, I should not be expecting rationality.

Okay, enough games. If you have nothing to add but childish transphobia and attempts at character-assassination, you can go back to playing with the rest of the schoolchildren. The rest of us have genuine discussions to attend to.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:

Bananaistan wrote:
"You can take your ignorance of reality (and ignorance of existing international law see GAR#91) and shove it. We don't care to listen to the nonsensical ramblings of those who fail to meet their obligations under international law."

"What you argue ambassador is not reality but fantasy. Law does not dictate truth."

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:"What with there being no evidence whatsoever for the idea of transgenderism beyond the psychological disorder known as gender dysphoria, and that there us no evidence observed suicidality rates decrease following proposed 'treatment', the SFLE feels that this proposal acts in dangerous ignorance of the condition suffered by those it purports to speak in the interest of.

"Transgender is not an identity or orientation with rights or privileges anymore than depression or schizophrenia are. The SFLE is committed to treating afflicted people so that they are not threatened by the massive suicide rate, and that they can live a normal life. We see this proposal as nothing more than a condemnation of vulnerable people to suffering and death, and wholeheartedly condemn it."

Kenmoria wrote:

Morover wrote:OOC: Should I just remove it, then? Personally, I think it adds something to the proposal, but I suppose the proposal could go without it.

(OOC: I think you should redefine it to a reasonable price, instead of an affordable one, so any pharmaceutical company doesn’t have to go bankrupt if hormones are in short supply.)

Tinfect wrote:

Christian Democrats wrote:The key difference, Ambassador, is that vaccination is not unsafe. Artificial hormones, on the other hand, increase risks for numerous health conditions, including but not limited to cancer, cardiovascular disease, sterility, obesity, gallstones, hyperkalemia, and polycythemia.

Imposing vaccines on healthy children is not unlike imposing fruits and vegetables on healthy children.

OOC:
I know this is in-character but, you keep saying that, and I don't think you honestly understand what those words mean.

Hormones used for HRT are universally bioidentical. That means that they are literally exactly the same as what a cis person's body normally produces. The sole extant difference is the fact that they were synthesized, or there was some other process used to make them, I don't really know, how specifically they're made, and it doesn't really matter. Your body is unable to tell the difference, because there is none.

Second, those risks are either, natural in cis people who have those hormones naturally, or due primarily to method of administration; for example, I take 6 milligrams of estradiol, that's literally just brand name estrogen in case you're about to scream about artificial hormones again, in pill form. Due to that fact, not the hormone itself, I am putting extra stress on my liver. This is the same sort of risk you take with literally any medication at all, and all this nonsensical outrage over things that happen with literally any medication without any concern is nothing but transphobic misdirection.

Finally, we get to the last point about health. Mental health is a real fucking thing. If you break an arm, you get a fucking cast, if you've got severe depression, you take antidepressants. This whole argument is a complete dismissal of mental health, and it's absurd. For transpeople, the alternative to transition is often either suicide or a life of abject suffering and self-repression. I would certainly hope that you consider those bad things. The alternative that you imply, while of course carefully dodging around to give yourself the veneer of plausible deniability when called out for it like I'm doing right now, is fucking conversion therapy. Which, as we've been over, is abusive, torturous, inhuman, and horrific. Do not try to say 'psychiatric treatment' when you mean conversion therapy. Trans people often undergo psychiatric treatment, and are often required to do so, especially children. Conversion therapy, or 'birth sex affirmation' or whatever the fuck you people want to call it is not psychiatric treatment, it's child abuse.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:OOC: The denial of a thing is not a phobia.

I am not saying that there are not people who call themselves trans. But if you are 'diagnosed' then that is gender dysphoria. Transgender is merely the identity. And it is not an identity rooted in fact as neither sex nor gender are malleable per your wishes. You can call yourself whatever you want, it doesn't mean you are that thing.

And my rejection of the identitarianism of this movement based solely on the supposed reality that they will suffer if biology is adhered to does not constitute any sort of phobia, fear, or hatred. I simply do not accept you are what you claim to be because you have absolutely no evidence to support it beyond your feelings.

Morover wrote:Obviously you're more knowledgeable than I am in regards to this, so hopefully you can give me some insight: Is it inappropriate to include that, in order for an individual to use these hormones, they must understand what they do? I feel like it's the best way to get around the "argument" that hormones can be dangerous, but I'd rather not have it at all. Any additional insight into that specific clause would be ideal, if you wouldn't mind commenting.

Tinfect wrote:

Morover wrote:Obviously you're more knowledgeable than I am in regards to this, so hopefully you can give me some insight: Is it inappropriate to include that, in order for an individual to use these hormones, they must understand what they do? I feel like it's the best way to get around the "argument" that hormones can be dangerous, but I'd rather not have it at all. Any additional insight into that specific clause would be ideal, if you wouldn't mind commenting.

OOC:
That's basically the informed consent standard that's used in the US; it's also basically standard medical practice to make sure a patient knows what they're taking, so, it's not necessary to include, except perhaps to mandate that be the standard that Member-States use rather than anything gatekeepery.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:

Tinfect wrote:
OOC:
I refute it on a near daily basis whenever people like you come up spouting the same lines of nonsense. Try doing some actual basic research; there's no excuse to demand that it be laid out nicely for you when countless people have already done so.



Yes it is. I'm trans, I'm real, being trans is real.

You are whatever you were born as. Anything else is not identity but delusion. I too have debated this numerous times with people and found they lack anything substantiating beyond semantics.

But given I am taking this from a self-identified communist, I should not be expecting rationality.

Morover wrote:Access to Hormonal Therapy

Civil Rights | Significant

Believing that transgender people have basic rights and needs.

Disgusted that some nations refuse to grant transgender people these rights and needs.

Understanding that, for many transgender people, access to sex hormones is vital to one's sense of identity.

Further understanding that many transgender people do not use sex hormones.
Hereby,

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, transgender as an individual whose gender identity is not the same as assigned to said individual at birth.

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, sex hormones (henceforth known as "hormones") as a bodily chemical which gives specific gender or sexual characteristics to an individual.

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, hormonal therapy as an intentional change in the balance of hormones, in order to more accurately represent an individual's gender or sexual identity.

Requires all member-states to legalize hormonal therapy for all individuals.

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormonal medication.

Forbids any member-state from keeping hormones from a transgender person as punishment for a crime.

Forbids any member-state from forcing an individual to undergo hormonal therapy.

Demands that all suppliers of hormones which operate under the jurisdiction of a member-state keep their prices reasonable.

Christian Democrats wrote:

Wallenburg wrote:Imposing vaccines on healthy children, who can in no real sense provide consent, is unethical.

Uh oh, check that out, now they're dead from measles.

The key difference, Ambassador, is that vaccination is not unsafe. Artificial hormones, on the other hand, increase risks for numerous health conditions, including but not limited to cancer, cardiovascular disease, sterility, obesity, gallstones, hyperkalemia, and polycythemia.

Imposing vaccines on healthy children is not unlike imposing fruits and vegetables on healthy children.

Araraukar wrote:OOC post because I don't have enough brain power to coat things into IC.

Morover wrote:Access to Hormonal Therapy

"Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy" would be more apt and is only 39 or so marks long (current max is 52 or so).

Civil Rights | Significant

Could also easily fit into Healthcare, given that HRT is in RL a healthcare thing.

Believing that transgender people have basic rights and needs.

I know you mean well, but this is worded so that it makes me cringe. Maybe "Reaffirming that gender identity is not a valid reason for discrimination" since that's what this is all about, really. And for anyone crying "but what about gynecologist/[any other genital-based thing]", you can tell them that your proposal is not about genitals and that if they want to write a proposal about genitals, they're free to have a go at it.

Disgusted that some nations refuse to grant transgender people these rights and needs.

This, again, I get your point, but any nation that refuses to do so, is already in violation of WA law, so I suggest changing/removing this one.

Understanding that, for many transgender people, access to sex hormones is vital to one's sense of identity.

...no. Hormones =/= identity. It's the effect of the hormones on the body, changing the secondary sex characteristics, that can help narrow down the gulf between the body and the mind, and to make passing as the sex that matches your gender easier.

Further understanding that many transgender people do not use sex hormones.
Hereby,

Missing an empty line between the statement and Hereby. And also, why the statement? A better one would be "Further understanding that the decision to take hormones should always be up to the individual". Because if you put in the word "many", people who don't understand the issue are going to think that this is something aimed at a minority of a minority.

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, transgender as an individual whose gender identity is not the same as assigned to said individual at birth.

You're mixing gender and sex there. Better worded as "-individual whose gender identity does not match the sex they were assigned at birth".

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, sex hormones (henceforth known as "hormones") as a bodily chemical which gives specific gender or sexual characteristics to an individual.

Again mixing with the gender and sex. Maybe better as "-as a chemical naturally produced by the body, which gives the body secondary sex characteristics". For humans that works both ways; fat cells produce estrogen in all sexes, testicles produce small amounts of it as well, and ovaries and adrenal glands produce small amounts of testosterone. So as they are produced naturally anyway, you can use the "naturally produced", and anyone who doesn't know biology, can take a leap off the cliff known as Wikipedia.

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, hormonal therapy as an intentional change in the balance of hormones, in order to more accurately represent an individual's gender or sexual identity.

As others have said, don't use sexual identity, as it has nothing to do with being trans. Also, please use normal English words; "hormone therapy" instead of "hormonal therapy". Also, that's a bad definition. It should at minimum have "using hormones to", since you define hormones above.

Requires all member-states to legalize hormonal therapy for all individuals.

"...all individuals capable of consenting to the treatment." Be very careful how you word this, by the way, because PRA lets parents decide for their kids, which makes CD's arguments on this thread null.

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormonal medication.

I disagree with Kenmoria I think it was, about the use of "affordable", and would suggest keeping it this way rather than changing to "reasonable". Both to give some more oomph for your proposal (some spending or regulations by the nation required) as well as to not contradict existing healthcare resolutions.

Forbids any member-state from keeping hormones from a transgender person as punishment for a crime.

I'd add "or as part of a punishment" in there.

Demands that all suppliers of hormones which operate under the jurisdiction of a member-state keep their prices reasonable.

Don't. Keep "affordable" earlier, and nix this entirely. Then the nations are free to decide whether they want to pass a national law requiring low hormone prices from manufacturers, or if the state will cover the costs between affordability and what the manufacturers want for their wares.

Morover wrote:transgenderism

Araraukar wrote:

Morover wrote:transgenderism

OOC: Will give better replies later, but ^that? Don't use that. Being transgender is not an ism any more than being cisgender is.

Morover wrote:OOC: Apologies, still learning terms and it didn't even occur to me that it may be offensive. Thanks for letting me know, I've been using that for a while and have probably made a fool of myself somewhere.