[PASSED] Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy

[Kenmoria]

OOC: Fairly sure Shrewllamaland has this base already covered in a proposal draft; pursuing this might be against NS site rules for plagiarism? I'll leave it to Shrew to link the proposal here.

(OOC: The plagiarism rule applies only to actual text, not to just ideas. It can be discourteous, in certain circumstances, to copy someone’s idea, but it isn’t against the rules. Since I haven’t seen Shrewllamaland’s proposal for a long time, nothing here violates even any community standards, let alone rules.)

[ShrewLlamaLand]

OOC: Fairly sure Shrewllamaland has this base already covered in a proposal draft; pursuing this might be against NS site rules for plagiarism? I'll leave it to Shrew to link the proposal here.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=462407

OOC: This is the one, we do fully intend to submit it eventually, but I've just been fairly busy recently.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

OOC: You can't copyright an idea, only text. Posting a draft about ensuring the rights of transgender people doesn't magically make you the only person with the right to pass a resolution about transgender rights. Since no text was copied, there is no plagiarism. If one of these proposals passes, maybe there will be a duplication issue that the other must deal with. But this is currently a perfectly legal proposal.

[Bears Armed]

OOC: Morover, don't. Just don't. Word yours so that it doesn't ban a second proposal on hormone therapy for any other reason, but don't water this down with ^those suggestions.

Agreed. Keep the focus on transgender rights.

OOC
Thinking further about this, any governments that guarantee the supply of hormones for transgender individuals who need them in order to manifest as the genders with which they identify but don't also guarantee the supply for any cisgender individuals who [for whatever reason] also need more hormones than they can produce themselves for that purpose would probably be in violation of the COCR...

[Dontriptia]

This proposal is not an international issue and our delegation also stands opposed as a matter of policy.

[Morover]

OOC: Fairly sure Shrewllamaland has this base already covered in a proposal draft; pursuing this might be against NS site rules for plagiarism? I'll leave it to Shrew to link the proposal here.

OOC: Fairly sure Shrewllamaland has this base already covered in a proposal draft; pursuing this might be against NS site rules for plagiarism? I'll leave it to Shrew to link the proposal here.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=462407

OOC: This is the one, we do fully intend to submit it eventually, but I've just been fairly busy recently.

OOC: Not plagiarism, as has already been said, and, frankly, I wasn't aware of your draft when writing this. When/if you decide to come back to that, I'll work with you. I don't like ungrounded plagiarism accusations, honestly.

This proposal is not an international issue and our delegation also stands opposed as a matter of policy.

IC: "I don't see how this is any less of an international issue than GAR#91, ambassador."

Where do these guys get these ridiculous ideas? Tell you what, I’ll support this if the hormones we pump them with match their sex instead of their delusions.

"Ambassador, I do request that you refrain from commenting if you have nothing constructive to say. While I understand that there are some individuals who would rather suppress their citizens than grant them their basic rights, I don't believe that to be a good reason to call ones gender identity a 'delusion'."

[Araraukar]

Thinking further about this, any governments that guarantee the supply of hormones for transgender individuals who need them in order to manifest as the genders with which they identify but don't also guarantee the supply for any cisgender individuals who [for whatever reason] also need more hormones than they can produce themselves for that purpose would probably be in violation of the COCR...

OOC: The proposal:

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, "hormone therapy" as a medical treatment involving the consumption of natural bodily hormones for the purposes of altering one's secondary sex characteristics to more accurately reflect their gender identity.

Cisgenders don't have hormone therapy to "alter secondary sex characteristics to more accurately reflect their gender identity". They don't need to. Note that the proposal uses "hormone therapy" as defined, throughout. Ergo, not against CoCR.

[Inhorto]

Given how authoritative your language is, I think it more appropriate to relabel your proposal as Significant.

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy.

Many nations are simply too poor and have a dilapidated health care system to provide hormone therapy cheaply and safely. This bill is problematic in that it impels all nations to provide a service which is not needed to the vast majority of the world's population and when, in reality, many nations cannot provide even basic emergency health care.

I would consider rewording the obligation to a suggestion, while also prohibiting nations from prosecuting or discriminating against persons traveling abroad to undergo hormone therapy or sexual reassignment surgery.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: Fairly sure Shrewllamaland has this base already covered in a proposal draft; pursuing this might be against NS site rules for plagiarism? I'll leave it to Shrew to link the proposal here.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=462407

OOC: This is the one, we do fully intend to submit it eventually, but I've just been fairly busy recently.

OOC: Not plagiarism, as has already been said, and, frankly, I wasn't aware of your draft when writing this. When/if you decide to come back to that, I'll work with you. I don't like ungrounded plagiarism accusations, honestly.

OOC: You need not work with them unless you want to, since your draft does not meet GA standards for plagiarism. Two drafts by different players on the same topics can coexist without invoking plagiarism. Don't listen to their incorrect assertions.

[Araraukar]

Many nations are simply too poor and have a dilapidated health care system to provide hormone therapy cheaply and safely. This bill is problematic in that it impels all nations to provide a service which is not needed to the vast majority of the world's population and when, in reality, many nations cannot provide even basic emergency health care.

OOC: Then those nations are already in involuntary violation of other resolutions, including the one that requires they provide affordable basic healthcare and essential medication for all their inhabitants.

Look, the committee that punishes nations for violations, is - so I keep getting told - staffed by sensible gnomes, who would be able to tell that a nation isn't intentionally and willfully violating any one resolution, but rather simply unable to comply currently. One way the WA can force them to comply is to use one of the other resolutions that make nations applicable for WA help, and actually provide them with a way to get the meds their people need (presumably the WA could force the nation to, say, lower military spending to increase healthcare spending). If the nation then refused to provide as required, it could be punished for noncompliance.

At least that's the only way the whole compliance enforcement can reasonably be thought to work in IC, given the different economic statuses of nations and tech levels and all that.

[South World]

"You can take your ignorance of reality (and ignorance of existing international law see GAR#91) and shove it. We don't care to listen to the nonsensical ramblings of those who fail to meet their obligations under international law."

"What you argue ambassador is not reality but fantasy. Law does not dictate truth."

I suggest you do as I and my nation have done and withdraw from the WA. I rule my country, not the WA.

[Inhorto]

OOC: Then those nations are already in involuntary violation of other resolutions, including the one that requires they provide affordable basic healthcare and essential medication for all their inhabitants.

Look, the committee that punishes nations for violations, is - so I keep getting told - staffed by sensible gnomes, who would be able to tell that a nation isn't intentionally and willfully violating any one resolution, but rather simply unable to comply currently. One way the WA can force them to comply is to use one of the other resolutions that make nations applicable for WA help, and actually provide them with a way to get the meds their people need (presumably the WA could force the nation to, say, lower military spending to increase healthcare spending). If the nation then refused to provide as required, it could be punished for noncompliance.

At least that's the only way the whole compliance enforcement can reasonably be thought to work in IC, given the different economic statuses of nations and tech levels and all that.

IC: While your points are certainly true, that is not the point I saught to make. I object to this bill's requiring that all nations, regardless of their economic condition or religious affiliation, must provide hormone therapy—especially when many penurious nations can scarcely furnish basic health care. Furthermore, many states have serious objection to transgenderism, and, while I do not agree with those views, it is evident that this proposal does not accommodate those nations. For these reasons, I proposed that the author amend the requirement to a suggestion, and prohibit member states from prosecuting persons traveling abroad to seek hormone therapy if their home nation cannot or refuses to facilitate the practice.

[Teveen]

Access to Hormonal Therapy
Civil Rights | Mild



The World Assembly, by the advice and consent of the delegates and member nations thereof, and by the authority of the same, hereby:

Submits the following as fact:

1. Transgender and gender non-binary people are real.
2. Their experiences are not the product of "mental illness," "confusion," "disease," or anything of the sort -- rather, their understanding of their relationship to the world in the lens of gender does not correspond with their biological sex.
3. Their first-hand accounts of this understanding are real; each person is in the best position to understand and discern their own gender identity.
4. Any distress arising from this real disconnect between sex and gender is referred to as gender dysphoria -- like any mental condition, it ought to be treated.
5. Further, it ought to be treated in a manner that respects the fundamental facts: that transgender and non-binary individuals' experiences are real, and that their gender identity is not the same as their birth sex.
6. One such way to resolve the distress is through hormone therapy, and the choice to pursue or not to pursue such treatment ought to rest firmly in the hands of the individual, rather than in the hands of the state.

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, "hormone therapy" as a medical treatment involving the consumption of natural bodily hormones for the purposes of altering one's secondary sex characteristics to more accurately reflect their gender identity.

Requires all member-states to legalize hormone therapy for all consenting individuals.

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy.

Forbids any member-state from denying a transgender person access to hormone therapy as punishment or as part of a punishment for a crime.

Forbids any member-state from forcing an individual to undergo hormone therapy.

Co-Authored by United Massachusetts

IC: "Somewhat surprised this specific subject hasn't been legislated on, thus far."

OOC: I know that I have several other drafts up on the forums currently, but I do want to get this out there while it's still fresh on my mind. This will likely be my last draft for a bit, but I don't want to wait too long on it.

That being said, I did do a bit of research on the subject, but I'm by no means an expert on it. I believe I got most things correct, but there is a rather sizeable chance that this is somewhat inaccurate. If somebody with more experience in this area could give me some insight, that would be greatly appreciated.

"Ziss bill shall never be given law status in our glories country! Keep your filthy degenerate hands away from our children and our welfare check!"

OOC: that was supposed to be written with a cliche French accent, I clearly I am worse at this than I remember.

[Kenmoria]

IC: "Somewhat surprised this specific subject hasn't been legislated on, thus far."

OOC: I know that I have several other drafts up on the forums currently, but I do want to get this out there while it's still fresh on my mind. This will likely be my last draft for a bit, but I don't want to wait too long on it.

That being said, I did do a bit of research on the subject, but I'm by no means an expert on it. I believe I got most things correct, but there is a rather sizeable chance that this is somewhat inaccurate. If somebody with more experience in this area could give me some insight, that would be greatly appreciated.

"Ziss bill shall never be given law status in our glories country! Keep your filthy degenerate hands away from our children and our welfare check!"

OOC: that was supposed to be written with a cliche French accent, I clearly I am worse at this than I remember.

“This bill won’t be given law status in your country, because your country isn’t part of the General Assembly. If you do wish to join us, you will comply with any past or future resolution or risk fines due to the Administrative Compliance Act.”

(OOC: Was my comment about non-consumed hormones, and their place in the definition, missed under all the arguing? I don’t mind if you choose to not follow it, but it would be good to have a response.)

[Morover]

Given how authoritative your language is, I think it more appropriate to relabel your proposal as Significant.

"It initially was significant, ambassador, but it was changed to mild due to the small number of people it affects. I still agree with you, that it should be significant, but it does seem to be the general consensus that mild is more appropriate."

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy.

Many nations are simply too poor and have a dilapidated health care system to provide hormone therapy cheaply and safely. This bill is problematic in that it impels all nations to provide a service which is not needed to the vast majority of the world's population and when, in reality, many nations cannot provide even basic emergency health care.

"This should cost much less than basic emergency healthcare, due to the smaller numbers of people which it affects. I think that you'll find that this has less effect on a poor nation's spending than many believe it will."

I would consider rewording the obligation to a suggestion, while also prohibiting nations from prosecuting or discriminating against persons traveling abroad to undergo hormone therapy or sexual reassignment surgery.

"No."

OOC: Not plagiarism, as has already been said, and, frankly, I wasn't aware of your draft when writing this. When/if you decide to come back to that, I'll work with you. I don't like ungrounded plagiarism accusations, honestly.

OOC: You need not work with them unless you want to, since your draft does not meet GA standards for plagiarism. Two drafts by different players on the same topics can coexist without invoking plagiarism. Don't listen to their incorrect assertions.

OOC: I'd only work with them for the sake of getting good legislation across - I have no intention to "combine" our two proposals, not be any means. I have a few fundamental issues with their proposal, which is something I'd want to fix, should they submit their proposal before I submit mine.

Furthermore, many states have serious objection to transgenderism, and, while I do not agree with those views, it is evident that this proposal does not accommodate those nations.

IC: "I have not written this proposal to accommodate to bigoted nations - rather, it was written to help those under the oppressive regime of these nations."

IC: "Somewhat surprised this specific subject hasn't been legislated on, thus far."

OOC: I know that I have several other drafts up on the forums currently, but I do want to get this out there while it's still fresh on my mind. This will likely be my last draft for a bit, but I don't want to wait too long on it.

That being said, I did do a bit of research on the subject, but I'm by no means an expert on it. I believe I got most things correct, but there is a rather sizeable chance that this is somewhat inaccurate. If somebody with more experience in this area could give me some insight, that would be greatly appreciated.

"Ziss bill shall never be given law status in our glories country! Keep your filthy degenerate hands away from our children and our welfare check!"

OOC: that was supposed to be written with a cliche French accent, I clearly I am worse at this than I remember.

"Lucky for you, ambassador, you are not a member of the World Assembly. If you do join and this is passed, however, I'd prepare to follow this proposal."

"Ziss bill shall never be given law status in our glories country! Keep your filthy degenerate hands away from our children and our welfare check!"

OOC: that was supposed to be written with a cliche French accent, I clearly I am worse at this than I remember.

“This bill won’t be given law status in your country, because your country isn’t part of the General Assembly. If you do wish to join us, you will comply with any past or future resolution or risk fines due to the Administrative Compliance Act.”

(OOC: Was my comment about non-consumed hormones, and their place in the definition, missed under all the arguing? I don’t mind if you choose to not follow it, but it would be good to have a response.)

OOC: Apologies, I did see it and it completely slipped my mind. I totally agree with you, and I'll see what I can do.
EDIT: Kenmoria, I changed "consumption" to "use," which should cover all possible bases (I believe).

[The New Nordic Union]

This bill is problematic in that it impels all nations to provide a service which is not needed to the vast majority of the world's population.

OOC: One would hope most if not all medical help is not needed by the vast majority of the world's population.

[Araraukar]

IC:

OOC: When you reply to OOC things in IC, it makes your ambassador look like they're hearing voices nobody else can hear.

transgenderism

Being transgender is no more an -ism than being cisgender is. It is an innate quality, not a philosophy or religion.

does not accommodate those nations

Nor should it, given that there already is a resolution (GA #91) that sweeps such views into the waste bin and tells "those nations" that you can believe whatever you want, but you can't do whatever you want.

[Kenmoria]

“In your defines clause, you only list one potential usage of hormones, so ‘purposes’ should be simply ‘purpose’.”

[Morover]

“In your defines clause, you only list one potential usage of hormones, so ‘purposes’ should be simply ‘purpose’.”

"Fixed."

"Also, I'm beginning to look into submitting this - likely within 2-3 weeks. I do want to start meandering towards a finished product, but don't want to rush it."

[Kenmoria]

“In your defines clause, you only list one potential usage of hormones, so ‘purposes’ should be simply ‘purpose’.”

"Fixed."

"Also, I'm beginning to look into submitting this - likely within 2-3 weeks. I do want to start meandering towards a finished product, but don't want to rush it."

“I think that is the correct decision, this proposal seems to be close to something that could be GA law. On another note, your preamble clause 2 is unusually poetic, particularly the ‘lens of gender’ section.”

[Morover]

"Fixed."

"Also, I'm beginning to look into submitting this - likely within 2-3 weeks. I do want to start meandering towards a finished product, but don't want to rush it."

“I think that is the correct decision, this proposal seems to be close to something that could be GA law. On another note, your preamble clause 2 is unusually poetic, particularly the ‘lens of gender’ section.”

"Thank you, ambassador. And yes, that does seem to be poetic. That's a contribution from the delegation of United Massachusetts. I think it fits, so I don't think I'll change it currently."

[Jocospor]

OOC: Fairly sure Shrewllamaland has this base already covered in a proposal draft; pursuing this might be against NS site rules for plagiarism? I'll leave it to Shrew to link the proposal here.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=462407

OOC: This is the one, we do fully intend to submit it eventually, but I've just been fairly busy recently.

OOC: Not plagiarism, as has already been said, and, frankly, I wasn't aware of your draft when writing this. When/if you decide to come back to that, I'll work with you. I don't like ungrounded plagiarism accusations, honestly.

No accusation of plagiarism was made, ambassador. We're sure the delegates from Shrewllamaland would be interested in working with you.

OOC: Not plagiarism, as has already been said, and, frankly, I wasn't aware of your draft when writing this. When/if you decide to come back to that, I'll work with you. I don't like ungrounded plagiarism accusations, honestly.

OOC: You need not work with them unless you want to, since your draft does not meet GA standards for plagiarism. Two drafts by different players on the same topics can coexist without invoking plagiarism. Don't listen to their incorrect assertions.

OOC: Yes, thank you, Your Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence. Again, an assertion wasn't made, but here's an assertion for you: No one needs you telling them what they can or can't do. Morover can do what he likes; if he wants to work with us, his decision. You want to subsequently ridicule him for that, your decision.

[Wallenburg]

No accusation of plagiarism was made, ambassador. We're sure the delegates from Shrewllamaland would be interested in working with you.

OOC: Fairly sure Shrewllamaland has this base already covered in a proposal draft; pursuing this might be against NS site rules for plagiarism? I'll leave it to Shrew to link the proposal here.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yes, I see your point. Absolutely no plagiarism accusations made here, no sir!

[Araraukar]

*snip*

OOC: It's seriously bad manners to pimp your own proposal on someone else's proposal thread.

Morover, you don't owe anything to them, your proposal is better than theirs (more focused), don't water it down by cooperating with them, please.

[Separatist Peoples]

No accusation of plagiarism was made, ambassador. We're sure the delegates from Shrewllamaland would be interested in working with you.

OOC: I think you missed the clearly OOC marker there.

OOC: Yes, thank you, Your Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence.

Not the worst title I've had, but I prefer something that just denotes my obvious subject matter expertise than one that just slathers on praise. Really, titles should be about ease of identifying begats, not sloppy social blowjobs.

Again, an assertion wasn't made

It was.

but here's an assertion for you: No one needs you telling them what they can or can't do.

Its literally my job here. To interpret and apply GA rules and, as necessary, provide advice to that end. Which I did. There was the assertion of a rules violation. Thank you, Wallenburg, for memorializing it. I corrected the clearly incorrect statement by advising the player as to their options moving forward. Its what GenSec does.

I wouldn't have to do it if your grasp of the ruleset was less tenuous, but that's why they looked for subject matter experts to be on GenSec and not, y'know, you.

Morover can do what he likes; if he wants to work with us, his decision. You want to subsequently ridicule him for that, your decision.

I like this part. I appreciate a good attempt to turn blame around. Its a bit of sliminess that I genuinely admire when done right, and this almost was. Had our exchange over Morover's loyalties re: the draft gone on a bit longer in the thread, it may even have worked. I think you overplayed your hand, though, so I doubt the other "populist elites" in the forum are going to buy it.