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[PASSED] Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy

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Kenmoria
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Posts: 6373
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:16 am

West Heisen wrote:I urge nations to vote against this resolution. While it is understandable that this motion aims to ensure legal access to hormone therapy, I take issue with the 'affordable' part. What defines affordable? Furthermore, if it is not affordable in a country, it would fall upon the government to make it so. This would use important tax money on something which is a private decision; citizens should not be forced to pay for another's gender identity.

(OOC: ‘Affordable’ is a common English word used in the traditional sense; as such, there is no need to define it in the proposal. Hormone therapy is affordable if the majority of the transgender populace can afford without excessive difficulty. If it is not affordable, it could fall on the tax-payer to make it so, but not necessarily. The government could merely mandate that businesses don’t raise their prices above a certain point.)
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
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NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Lamebrainia
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Posts: 94
Founded: Apr 28, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Lamebrainia » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:48 am

Araraukar wrote:OOC: I am a non-binary transmale and I have a gender diagnosis to prove it. Anyone claiming that is not a real thing, can feel free to take it up with the Real Life state of Finland. Also, unless you have an official paper declaring your gender - not your sex - why should I believe you claiming to be what you are?
So cancer spread from Sweden to Finland? :D
Ok, I identify as a 65-year-old sphynx cat, there's bound to be a place on this planet which will recognise me and pay for my permanent hair removal operation.

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Attempted Socialism
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Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Attempted Socialism » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:50 am

Araraukar wrote:OOC: I am a non-binary transmale and I have a gender diagnosis to prove it. Anyone claiming that is not a real thing, can feel free to take it up with the Real Life state of Finland. Also, unless you have an official paper declaring your gender - not your sex - why should I believe you claiming to be what you are?

OOC: I don't think most of the drive-by posters against the proposal are able to differentiate between sex, gender and genderroles. Several have quite clearly confused them.


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Araraukar
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:56 am

Attempted Socialism wrote:OOC: I don't think most of the drive-by posters against the proposal are able to differentiate between sex, gender and genderroles. Several have quite clearly confused them.

OOC: Still, anyone saying non-binary is not a real thing, can try to take it up with my RL home country.
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John Stossel
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Founded: May 14, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby John Stossel » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:01 am

Lamebrainia wrote:So cancer spread from Sweden to Finland? :D
Ok, I identify as a 65-year-old sphynx cat, there's bound to be a place on this planet which will recognise me and pay for my permanent hair removal operation.

Please. Disagreement is acceptable, but insults are not.

Araraukar wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:OOC: I don't think most of the drive-by posters against the proposal are able to differentiate between sex, gender and genderroles. Several have quite clearly confused them.

OOC: Still, anyone saying non-binary is not a real thing, can try to take it up with my RL home country.


Unfortunately, appealing to authority does not make something true. Your home country could be wrong.

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Attempted Socialism
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Attempted Socialism » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:07 am

Araraukar wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:OOC: I don't think most of the drive-by posters against the proposal are able to differentiate between sex, gender and genderroles. Several have quite clearly confused them.

OOC: Still, anyone saying non-binary is not a real thing, can try to take it up with my RL home country.
OOC: I honestly don't think facts will change the minds of posters posting about "beta males", "swedish cancer" or the like. I admire your tenacity, but several posters seem like they don't have the basic knowledge to even engage with your request.


Represented in the World Assembly by
Ambassador and Chairperson of the Executive International Relations Committee
Marcie Elizabeth 'MacBeth' Illum
Cui Bono, quod seipsos custodes custodiunt?
Ivory Tower Critical-Realistic Sardonic Marxist Curmudgeon
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Araraukar
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:48 am

John Stossel wrote:Unfortunately, appealing to authority does not make something true. Your home country could be wrong.

OOC: It is still a better claim than you have. Now, do you have documented proof about your gender or am I to simply trust your word for you being whatever you claim to be?

Attempted Socialism wrote:OOC: I admire your tenacity, but several posters seem like they don't have the basic knowledge to even engage with your request.

OOC: That, my friend, is their problem, not mine. 8)
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Coronavirus related. This too. And this. These are all jokes. This isn't. This is, again, but it's also the last one.

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WikiPlay
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Founded: May 09, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby WikiPlay » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:13 am

I do with my body what I like. It's as simple as that.
Some people (especially the younger generation) and my Indonesian husband find it very attractive. Taste is different...

We live in a society that is less tolerant. People are people's : if my husband comes on high heels then I absolutely have zero problems with it. If she start a hormone therapy then this is her choice and will accept it. If you feel and act like a women, why not?

Happyness, freedom and the fact that this is still the same person on the inside are far more important values.

I feel that there is much segregation and that's wrong. I have transgender friends: just talk!

In the name of human rights I vote FOR this resolution.
Last edited by WikiPlay on Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Fushiya
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Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Fushiya » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:18 am

Well, when it passes if there's no magical turnaround, at least we're made aware that these people are real and will undergo therapy and surgery with their consent. All is good if the people are good.

Consent is but a relative authority...like political opposition...
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Ecradia
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Founded: Jun 11, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ecradia » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:07 am

"While the Syndicalist Union of Ecradia does not affirm the legitimacy of the World Assembly, and instead recognizes it as nothing more than another tool of the bourgeoisie to further extend domination over the global proletarian class, as well as a tool for bourgeois powers to commit imperialism against lesser nations, and a tool to strongarm capitalism upon the free peoples of the world, we must congratulate the ambassador from Morover for doing what should have done long ago, as well as support the notion that all people are free to do with their bodies as they wish, so long as their actions harm no one else."
Last edited by Ecradia on Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Marxist Germany
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Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Marxist Germany » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:23 am

Ambassador Klaus enters the chamber to cast his vote, he quickly takes the delegate ballot paper, writes his vote, and casts his ballot paper. He then leaves the voting chamber and enters the debate chamber. "What on earth is going on here?" he says, shocked by all the shouting, flaming and name calling, "This is a place meant for civil debates!" He tries to shout louder than the rest of the chamber.

Finally, after the chamber has descended to some bearable form of debate, he begins, "I have come here to announce that I have cast my vote as AGAINST, I believe that our citizens should not pay for someone else's cosmetic surgeries and hormone therapies are in fact considered cosmetic here, and due to our tax on hormone therapy which is at 60%, we have been able to creatively comply with GA#91, this resolution is going to force us to remove that tax, which I find rather annoying."

As the ambassador is about to leave, the shouting and debating restarts,"sigh, there will never be a place more uncivil than this chamber," he whispers to himself.
Last edited by Marxist Germany on Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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West Heisen
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Founded: Dec 07, 2018
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Postby West Heisen » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:45 am

Attempted Socialism wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: I am a non-binary transmale and I have a gender diagnosis to prove it. Anyone claiming that is not a real thing, can feel free to take it up with the Real Life state of Finland. Also, unless you have an official paper declaring your gender - not your sex - why should I believe you claiming to be what you are?

OOC: I don't think most of the drive-by posters against the proposal are able to differentiate between sex, gender and genderroles. Several have quite clearly confused them.

OOC: Sex and Gender are and have always been synonymous, and I have not yet seen a compelling argument as to why they are suddenly different now. Also, aren't 'gender roles' against the very nature of progressivism? Men and women can do whatever they want; their gender is irrelevant, yes? Men and women do different things naturally, it's part of the biological differences, but we shouldn't act as though liking 'girly' things makes you a girl, for example. Also, people who claim they are non binary do exist, but non binary people don't exist. One could say there is a spectrum from male personality/behaviour to female, but not perfectly fitting into the stereotypical man/woman category doesn't mean you are something else entirely. People often bring up intersex, but that is 1. simply a genetic abnormality, just as someone might be born with 6 fingers, and 2. the said person almost always has very defining characteristics of one gender, they are not directly in between.

Furthermore, if I told you I was a dragon, you obviously wouldn't believe it. If I told you I was a woman, you probably would believe it. It doesn't really matter. Personally, I choose to judge people based on the content of their character, not whatever they 'identify' as. So there's really no need to tell people what you 'identify' as, since it has no tangible effect on anything.
Last edited by West Heisen on Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kenmoria
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Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:56 am

West Heisen wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:OOC: I don't think most of the drive-by posters against the proposal are able to differentiate between sex, gender and genderroles. Several have quite clearly confused them.

OOC: Sex and Gender are and have always been synonymous, and I have not yet seen a compelling argument as to why they are suddenly different now. Also, aren't 'gender roles' against the very nature of progressivism? Men and women can do whatever they want; their gender is irrelevant, yes? Men and women do different things naturally, it's part of the biological differences, but we shouldn't act as though liking 'girly' things makes you a girl, for example. Also, people who claim they are non binary do exist, but non binary people don't exist. One could say there is a spectrum from male personality/behaviour to female, but not perfectly fitting into the stereotypical man/woman category doesn't mean you are something else entirely. People often bring up intersex, but that is 1. simply a genetic abnormality, just as someone might be born with 6 fingers, and 2. the said person almost always has very defining characteristics of one gender, they are not directly in between.

Furthermore, if I told you I was a dragon, you obviously wouldn't believe it. If I told you I was a woman, you probably would believe it. It doesn't really matter. Personally, I choose to judge people based on the content of their character, not whatever they 'identify' as. So there's really no need to tell people what you 'identify' as, since it has no tangible effect on anything.

(OOC: Sex and gender have not always been synonymous, and transgender people have a long history throughout civilisation. Besides, even if they are, you admit that men and women should be able to do what they want. Why shouldn’t they be allowed to take hormone therapy to feel comfortable?)
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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The Osaskyans
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Founded: May 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby The Osaskyans » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:28 am

"The Osakyani affirm the rights of their transgendered and non-binary citizens and approve of affordable hormone therapy. However, we would like to know how this resolution for affordable hormone therapy has not already been covered by previous GA resolutions before we cast our vote."

- Ambassador Mica Saimon

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Morover
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Founded: Oct 14, 2018
Libertarian Police State

Postby Morover » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:45 am

The Osaskyans wrote:"The Osakyani affirm the rights of their transgendered and non-binary citizens and approve of affordable hormone therapy. However, we would like to know how this resolution for affordable hormone therapy has not already been covered by previous GA resolutions before we cast our vote."

- Ambassador Mica Saimon

“Ambassador, GAR#91 covered an area incredibly similar to this - this is patching a loophole in GAR#91’s text.”

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Separatist Peoples
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Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:00 am

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:"Damn. Nothing, but nothing, brings out the body fascists and the Dick Police like a proposal to treat people like human beings."


Paleoconservative Citizens wrote:Men naturally have testosterone. Women have estrogen. But you cannot switch the two between the sexes.
This is an abomination for which I will not stand. It is a twisting of nature and, just because someone feels they belong to another gender, doesn't mean that they do. By this argument, I could just as well say that, because I believe I am God, that I am God. It's foolishness.

"And yet you're happy to make grand, sweeping - false, natch - decrees about 'nature' and what people can and can't do in their own lives. This dude doth protest too much, methinks."


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Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Saciu
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Saciu » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:14 am

Araraukar wrote:OOC: I am a non-binary transmale and I have a gender diagnosis to prove it. Anyone claiming that is not a real thing, can feel free to take it up with the Real Life state of Finland. Also, unless you have an official paper declaring your gender - not your sex - why should I believe you claiming to be what you are?

OOC: This is kind of confusing. How can you be nb and male?
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Separatist Peoples
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:22 am

Saciu wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: I am a non-binary transmale and I have a gender diagnosis to prove it. Anyone claiming that is not a real thing, can feel free to take it up with the Real Life state of Finland. Also, unless you have an official paper declaring your gender - not your sex - why should I believe you claiming to be what you are?

OOC: This is kind of confusing. How can you be nb and male?

OOC: One imagines that he transitioned from female sex to male sex but identifies and therefore presents as neither a man nor a woman, genitals be damned.

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The Osaskyans
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Founded: May 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby The Osaskyans » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:40 am

Morover wrote:
The Osaskyans wrote:"The Osakyani affirm the rights of their transgendered and non-binary citizens and approve of affordable hormone therapy. However, we would like to know how this resolution for affordable hormone therapy has not already been covered by previous GA resolutions before we cast our vote."

- Ambassador Mica Saimon

“Ambassador, GAR#91 covered an area incredibly similar to this - this is patching a loophole in GAR#91’s text.”


"With that clarification, we shall be voting for this proposal."

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Kekanistanpines
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Founded: Jul 09, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Kekanistanpines » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:35 am

I cannot vote in favor of any piece of legislation that uses the word "ought" in its proposal.

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Fushiya
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Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Fushiya » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:59 am

Kekanistanpines wrote:I cannot vote in favor of any piece of legislation that uses the word "ought" in its proposal.


Now there's a point...

At the risk of breaking my controversial neutrality:

The use of "ought" surely makes it questionable as to just how empirically necessary the need for treatment is. Is it not a priority or a "must"? Are we being forced to give treatment on something that may not need it? Is there risks?

On that note, and this has probably been mentioned before by one of the ambassadors somewhere in here, but I am a bit late in seeing these things so I'll reiterate a point if it has been discussed already:
Their experiences are not the product of "mental illness," "confusion," "disease," or anything of the sort -- rather, their understanding of their relationship to the world in the lens of gender does not correspond with their biological sex.

Any distress arising from this real disconnect between sex and gender is referred to as gender dysphoria -- like any mental condition, it ought to be treated.


Forgive me if I am not fully understanding what's written but which is it? Mental illness or not?
Last edited by Fushiya on Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Inderlanda3
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Founded: Jun 17, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Inderlanda3 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:49 am

There is still time our sports must be kept fair

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Kenmoria
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Posts: 6373
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:51 am

Inderlanda3 wrote:There is still time our sports must be kept fair

“This proposal doesn’t mention sport at all, ambassador. You can still exclude transgender people from sports, if you so desire, since this proposal doesn’t touch on discrimination, and that would fall through the ‘practical purpose’ exception of GA #035.”
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:05 am

Lamebrainia wrote:People are seriously voting for this? I don't even want to go into ridiculing affordable treatments for mentally ill people (yes, "gender dysphoria" is a mental illness, despite what the resolution says), but one of the statements in the resolution is a blatant, unscientific lie: "gender non-binary people are real". No, they're not. Yeah, sure, their condition is subjectively real for them, but it doesn't mean said reality should be forced onto others. I mean, I might be hearing animals talk to me, but it doesn't mean that the government should subsidise a place for me in the zoo, where I can exhibit my imaginary skill. I haven't commented on any other resolutions before, but this one was so ridiculous I even had to step out of character.

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Union of Sovereign States and Republics
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Founded: Nov 16, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Union of Sovereign States and Republics » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:12 am

Guess here's my IC ambassador giving the WA vote.

"The USSR has voted against this resolution. While we do respect the rights of transgender people and do approve of affordable hormone therapy, the first and fifth clauses affirming the existence of non-binary people is not acceptable by the Soviet government. A significant majority of those both within the government and not in the government, be them civilians or the army, do believe that there are only two genders, male and female, and that gender and sex are synonymous. If these clauses would have been removed from the proposal before the submission of the resolution, we would have happily voted for this resolution."
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