NationStates

Joc, your author failing to use a spell-checker doesn't change the fact that this was nowhere close to passing anyway.

Novum Vallis wrote:Antifa has nothing to do with the Civil Defence Siren. It was implemented entirely by the New Pacific Order.

“Why is everyone calling us Nazis?”

Frattastan IV wrote:

Charleotopia wrote:LMAOOOOOOOOO this is the most useless siren ever. It emboldens fascists and provokes non-fascists in the list and otherwise doesn't do shit. Fascists want to be listed on there; to them it's like an endorsement. Meanwhile it has done nothing to keep number of members entering listed regions at zero

The CDS is only in effect when a user leaves a Pacific feeder region, so a user can join an unlisted region and then later join one that is listed, and the CDS wouldn't send the telegram because it didn't depart a feeder region. It's amazing how the NPO thinks the CDS is a brilliant idea

If that's the case you should also accept that it's nowhere near as noteworthy to earn a Condemnation, no? An outstanding nation among the many that populate the world? "Shock and dismay"? Come on, it just sends telegrams.

I don't see the CDS being condemned by the majority at all. I'm only here because people act as if CDS is an effective or good thing when it's just an annoying automated telegrammer that doesn't do anything but insist that certain regions are fascist

Kinnies wrote:

Novum Vallis wrote:Antifa has nothing to do with the Civil Defence Siren. It was implemented entirely by the New Pacific Order.

“Why is everyone calling us Nazis?”

??

Ransium wrote:

Jocospor wrote:The moderators are, yet again, at fault - and instead of admitting this, they behave in a seemingly juvenile way, too arrogant to admit their errors. Most disappointing.

Dude, I'm not too arrogant to admit my error. I fucked up. I wish I hadn't fucked up, but I did. But you know what, from time to time it's going to happen. The way things can be illegal in the SC is easy to miss sometimes. I've made mistakes in the past and I'll make mistakes in the future. All I can do is hope to learn from the ways I messed up in the past and not mess up on the future. I'm sorry that you and the author feel wronged by the fact that I messed up and that I've messed up in the past. I'm just a human being who makes mistakes sometimes.

We're not changing the rules because I failed to immediately recognize an easy to miss typo though. Allowing the active clause to target something other than the proposed target opens up all kinds of shenanigans we don't want.

I don't think having a GenSec for the SC would work great either, particularly if you want Wrapper and me of it. There just aren't that many people well-versed in the SC rules who are active, and the calls are usually, but not always, fairly objective. Anyone who would serve on the SC's GenSec (BBD, Kuriko) probably also read this proposal looking for illegalities and missed the typo as well.

OOC: I really appreciate this response, and I'm sure the author does too. I should have clarified, I was less having a dig at you than I was at Wrapper, who thought to try and make a joke out of it. Reality is, it's just not funny. Thanks to you, though, Ransium.

What about some sort of edit function after the proposal passes, to correct typos? Obviously the content couldn't be changed, but there might be something in allowing little fixes - right?

Jocospor wrote:

Ransium wrote:
Dude, I'm not too arrogant to admit my error. I fucked up. I wish I hadn't fucked up, but I did. But you know what, from time to time it's going to happen. The way things can be illegal in the SC is easy to miss sometimes. I've made mistakes in the past and I'll make mistakes in the future. All I can do is hope to learn from the ways I messed up in the past and not mess up on the future. I'm sorry that you and the author feel wronged by the fact that I messed up and that I've messed up in the past. I'm just a human being who makes mistakes sometimes.

We're not changing the rules because I failed to immediately recognize an easy to miss typo though. Allowing the active clause to target something other than the proposed target opens up all kinds of shenanigans we don't want.

I don't think having a GenSec for the SC would work great either, particularly if you want Wrapper and me of it. There just aren't that many people well-versed in the SC rules who are active, and the calls are usually, but not always, fairly objective. Anyone who would serve on the SC's GenSec (BBD, Kuriko) probably also read this proposal looking for illegalities and missed the typo as well.

OOC: I really appreciate this response, and I'm sure the author does too. I should have clarified, I was less having a dig at you than I was at Wrapper, who thought to try and make a joke out of it. Reality is, it's just not funny. Thanks to you, though, Ransium.

What about some sort of edit function after the proposal passes, to correct typos? Obviously the content couldn't be changed, but there might be something in allowing little fixes - right?

Don't the mods have that ability?

Jocospor wrote:

Ransium wrote:
Dude, I'm not too arrogant to admit my error. I fucked up. I wish I hadn't fucked up, but I did. But you know what, from time to time it's going to happen. The way things can be illegal in the SC is easy to miss sometimes. I've made mistakes in the past and I'll make mistakes in the future. All I can do is hope to learn from the ways I messed up in the past and not mess up on the future. I'm sorry that you and the author feel wronged by the fact that I messed up and that I've messed up in the past. I'm just a human being who makes mistakes sometimes.

We're not changing the rules because I failed to immediately recognize an easy to miss typo though. Allowing the active clause to target something other than the proposed target opens up all kinds of shenanigans we don't want.

I don't think having a GenSec for the SC would work great either, particularly if you want Wrapper and me of it. There just aren't that many people well-versed in the SC rules who are active, and the calls are usually, but not always, fairly objective. Anyone who would serve on the SC's GenSec (BBD, Kuriko) probably also read this proposal looking for illegalities and missed the typo as well.

OOC: I really appreciate this response, and I'm sure the author does too. I should have clarified, I was less having a dig at you than I was at Wrapper, who thought to try and make a joke out of it. Reality is, it's just not funny. Thanks to you, though, Ransium.

What about some sort of edit function after the proposal passes, to correct typos? Obviously the content couldn't be changed, but there might be something in allowing little fixes - right?

Mods aren't going to do that. Just like real life legislation, WA legislation needs to be submitted (and go to vote) as legal. Otherwise what would be the point of the rule set?

"We at Hijlistan Arg can forgive poor wording if the intent is still clear, but this proposal aims to condemn a nation that warns others against fascist regions while they themselves are a nation that supports child labor, and thus we have concluded that this proposal has the potential to weaken the sovereignty of truly free, socialist nations by making them vulnerable to fascism. We hereby vote AGAINST the proposal."

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Don't the mods have that ability?

Why should they?
I say that as a mod on a few sites. It’s a thankless job. Even the smallest things you can do will make someone mad.
And I’m sure site mods here have their fair bit of bs to deal with. So why should they be tasked with editing someone’s typo? In a game mechanic where drafting and proof reading are part of the game? It seems like an unreasonable amount of work to dump on mods on top of their other duties here.

Fact is it’s not the mods’ fault Slackertown submitted his proposal with a typo. It’s not anyone’s fault but Slackertown’s. And yet here’s the CoCD and their cheering section here to pretend it’s anyone’s fault but Slackertown’s.
No, sorry. It’s entirley his fault. He wrote it. He submitted it without drafting it on the forums. It’s his fault entirely.

And you know the kicker? It wouldn’t make a difference anyway. This proposal was getting killed before anyone even noticed the typo. Nothing would change if the proposal was written properly.

In short? The NS WA simulates the legislative process. Drafting and proofreading are par for the course in that arena. You want to play? Get good at both. It shouldn’t be the mod team’s responsibility to do your work for you.

Kuriko wrote:

Jocospor wrote:OOC: I really appreciate this response, and I'm sure the author does too. I should have clarified, I was less having a dig at you than I was at Wrapper, who thought to try and make a joke out of it. Reality is, it's just not funny. Thanks to you, though, Ransium.

What about some sort of edit function after the proposal passes, to correct typos? Obviously the content couldn't be changed, but there might be something in allowing little fixes - right?

Mods aren't going to do that. Just like real life legislation, WA legislation needs to be submitted (and go to vote) as legal. Otherwise what would be the point of the rule set?

Real world legislation is often corrected to remove typos.

Novum Vallis wrote:

Kinnies wrote:“Why is everyone calling us Nazis?”

??

You have to be willfully ignorant to not know the “New World Order” dog whistle.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Kuriko wrote:Mods aren't going to do that. Just like real life legislation, WA legislation needs to be submitted (and go to vote) as legal. Otherwise what would be the point of the rule set?

Real world legislation is often corrected to remove typos.

Yes, and Slackertown could have pulled the legislation from submission to fix it. Or he could have allowed for a reasonable amount of time to draft the legislation. Either would have fixed the issue.

Instead the dude rushed something out the door, it had a typo that rendered it useless, and you and the rest of the CoCD booster club are attempting to blame literally anyone but the guy who wrote and submitted typo.

Again, this game involves proof reading and drafting to play well. I’m unsure why you or anyone else sympathetic to the CoCD think Slackertown should get a pass on the rules on this.

And again? It doesn’t matter. This proposal was crashing and burning anyway. You guys get that, right?

Charleotopia wrote:The CDS is only in effect when a user leaves a Pacific feeder region, so a user can join an unlisted region and then later join one that is listed, and the CDS wouldn't send the telegram because it didn't depart a feeder region.

To avoid any confusion, the above is inaccurate. The CDS telegramming script does not check whether nations are coming from feeders or any other region.

Prydania wrote:And you know the kicker? It wouldn’t make a difference anyway. This proposal was getting killed before anyone even noticed the typo. Nothing would change if the proposal was written properly.

Which was impressive, considering the typo was noticed within ~8 minutes of it going to vote during Ransium's thread title edit & stickying

Lord Dominator wrote:

Prydania wrote:And you know the kicker? It wouldn’t make a difference anyway. This proposal was getting killed before anyone even noticed the typo. Nothing would change if the proposal was written properly.

Which was impressive, considering the typo was noticed within ~8 minutes of it going to vote during Ransium's thread title edit & stickying

Exactly. This thing was DOA. It was sunk as soon as it came to vote.

The biggest problem with this proposal was that even though we acknowledge the ability for nations to choose their own forms of government as they please within the WA, by condemning them for these actions we actively deny them that ability to do so. So what if the message the spread is inherently bad? If the WA really is so focused on everyone being able to be what they believe in, then what right do we have to advocate for their belief and coerce nations under their views and ideologies to do so? It's not like they can't leave said nation if the beliefs don't match. This resolution is just overall not good and contradictory to it's own beliefs.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Kuriko wrote:Mods aren't going to do that. Just like real life legislation, WA legislation needs to be submitted (and go to vote) as legal. Otherwise what would be the point of the rule set?

Real world legislation is often corrected to remove typos.

OOC: Yes it is. Again, this.

Jocospor wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Real world legislation is often corrected to remove typos.

OOC: Yes it is. Again, this.

From the Compendium of Mod Rulings:

You must clearly state the name of the nominee in the operative clause, not a nickname, and misspelling the name is liable to get your proposal removed.

This.

Ah yes, controversial topic time...

• 1 - "Nazism" (national socialism) is an ideology, it does not include any "vile" aspects in itself. To clarify, it is like saying Communism is vile because people died under it. How the leader of a nation or nation in a whole puts this ideology into practice is a different topic.

• 2 - The WA is not here to outlaw ideologies, it would make this place lose it's spice.

• 3 - No clue what to put into point 3 because the resolution itself is pretty lackluster, but to close up, anyone here is free to practice out his bizzare ideologies, as long as they stay family friendly I guess.

I, for one, would like to thank Slackertown for bringing the attention of the world to the Civil Defence Siren.

I admit, I had never heard of this most excellent project and resource, but this trainwreck of a condemnation attempt has done an excellent job of spreading awareness. I'll be sure to regularly refer new nations towards it.

I do wonder, in fact, if one of the more active WA regulars would consider drafting a commendation of this fine nation, in order to raise the profile of the project even further.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:I do wonder, in fact, if one of the more active WA regulars would consider drafting a commendation of this fine nation, in order to raise the profile of the project even further.

Seconded.

Jocospor wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Real world legislation is often corrected to remove typos.

OOC: Yes it is. Again, this.

Mods don’t have the technical ability to edit proposals after they’ve passed. And what you guys are describing is a nightmare and not going to happen. You want me to make subjective calls as to what the proposal actually meant so it could follow the rules? You think that’ll decrease controversy? No way. The responsibility of making proposals legal must always rest on the author.

Civil Defence Siren wrote:

Charleotopia wrote:The CDS is only in effect when a user leaves a Pacific feeder region, so a user can join an unlisted region and then later join one that is listed, and the CDS wouldn't send the telegram because it didn't depart a feeder region.

To avoid any confusion, the above is inaccurate. The CDS telegramming script does not check whether nations are coming from feeders or any other region.

That doesn't change the fact that nations don't receive your telegrams when they move from a non-feeder region to a listed "fascist" region.

If only you've used that energy to keep non-fascist regions off the list

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:I, for one, would like to thank Slackertown for bringing the attention of the world to the Civil Defence Siren.

I admit, I had never heard of this most excellent project and resource, but this trainwreck of a condemnation attempt has done an excellent job of spreading awareness. I'll be sure to regularly refer new nations towards it.

I do wonder, in fact, if one of the more active WA regulars would consider drafting a commendation of this fine nation, in order to raise the profile of the project even further.

Uhh, for a "project" whose job is to spread awareness, it does a pretty lousy job.

I see no reason why we should be condemning someone who has their own political beliefs. Let's view this from a way we can all understand, though.

If people wanted to rebel against C.D.S, they would have done it already. Albeit, with some struggle, Nazism, though I don't approve of it, isn't always bad. It's only bad if it purges an entire ethnicity or country/nation.

Therefore, I am voting against this condemnation, not only due to the insufficient evidence of any "heinous" crimes, but because this is a biased bill set up before the Security Council.

I'd also like to note that if we condemned this fascist nation, we would have to do so with EVERY OTHER NATION which agrees with their ideals. See United Confederacy of Fascist Nations as to why I say this.