[PASSED] Condemn The Pacific

[RiderSyl]

I am just going to leave this here:

Consider it an Official Announcement from the NPO Pacific government:

What's your government position in the NPO, Draganisia?

[Jar Wattinree]

I am just going to leave this here:

Consider it an Official Announcement from the NPO Pacific government:

What's your government position in the NPO, Draganisia?

He has none. This was a region-wide telegram, and the relevant posts are here and here.

[Prydania]

I am just going to leave this here:

Consider it an Official Announcement from the NPO Pacific government:

In this modern day and age, Condemns are toothless things for a region. They have lost their power to brand and mark; now they are just another Commend, albeit of a different color palette.

Do not let it discourage you comrades, but fill you with pride. The Pacific is adopting a policy of honesty in her interactions with other regions, and this Condemnation is but the honest efforts of a mindless enemy. They have shown their colors; we shall do the opposite, proudly waving the Condemnation in their face.

For we are the only Game Created Region to be Condemned. Not only that but twice Condemned! Whatever our failings, whatever our faults or mistakes, take pride regardless, for know that one day our fortunes will change for the better.

From Myrth, an honorable Pacifican and former Senator in ages gone by:

Fellow Pacificans! You may have noticed that there is a resolution at vote in the WA Security Council to condemn us. Most of you are probably thinking you should vote against. Well, you would be wrong. It may seem a little odd to vote for a resolution that seeks to condemn us, but with this resolution our enemies have handed us the most perfect piece of propaganda we could have asked for.
Those who would seek to see us destroyed, indeed the wording of the resolution itself states they hope "for the destruction of the New Pacific Order", make overtures of peace and promises of reconciliation should we merely accede to their demands of us. By supporting and voting for this resolution, they show their true colours and give us the evidence in black and white of their hypocrisy. By signing their names to this resolution, and giving us a nice shiny badge on our regional homepage, they set in stone their hypocrisy for all to see.
Let those who are serious about peace and reconciliation come to us with honest intentions. Let those who seek to destroy us and our great region expose themselves for what they really are!

Vote FOR Condemning the Pacific! Vote FOR the unmasking of those who seek to do us harm! Hail Pacifica! FOR THE EMPEROR!

I proudly endorse Comrade Myrth's suggestion: vote For the Condemn, and wear it with pride. And vote according to your conscience.

And for our true enemies who brought up this resolution this is what you get for Awakening The Dragons Of The Pacific !!!

Tactics aren’t hard to discern. You campaign against the Condemnation until it becomes crystal clear it will pass and now you shift gears to try and paint your crushing defeat as a victory. Your game is transparent, your motives are disingenuous.

I find your conduct in this thread to be nothing short of embarrassing. Spewing half truths and lies like a propagandist mouthpiece.

You and your allies in this thread have said that everyone spies and acts in their own interests. And maybe that’s true. It’s also the biggest reason why NS political gameplay is among the most toxic environments I’ve had the displeasure of stumbling on.
Is The Pacific alone in cultivating that atmosphere? No. Is it one of the worst offenders? Yes. They deserve any amount of scorn possible.

[The Gilded Star]

There is no shame in pride, but there is plenty in hubris, were it still capable of such introspection. Unfortunately, the NPO has shown that it has not only fallen down the pit of hubris, but has fallen so deeply that it has unapologetically disconnected itself from the rest of the world.

The NPO's recent behavior shows that its recent actions were not a regrettable lapse in judgment, but the NPO's personality in full unobstructed view. The NPO sees itself as a divine gift upon the Nationstates; that the entire community should not only be beholden to the NPO, but that the Order simply can never do wrong. The rest of the community, including fellow GCRs and Feederites, are seen and treated by the NPO as nothing more than a red carpet rolled out for it to preen itself upon.

When faced with widespread condemnation from the rest of the community, rather than take a moment for self-reflection and humility and consider that, despite its deserved pride and enthusiasm, it did behave unbecomingly as a member of the community, the NPO has instead basked in the condemnation; gloating about its deeds and continuing to unashamedly mock those it disrespected, mistreated, and betrayed. The NPO soon intends to wear the coming condemnation as a badge of honor and glory, seeing it as a sign that its antagonistic behavior should not just be continued, but perhaps even amplified.

Rather than acknowledge its misdeeds, the NPO has instead fashioned itself as a perpetual victim; insisting that any and all attempts of sovereignty by other nations are, in fact, undeserved and cruel assaults upon the innocent NPO. That the NPO should be entirely consequence-free for its actions, and that any attempt of self-defense by other nations threatens vindictive action to put them back in their place as the NPO's walking mat.

The Pacific is not just the home of the NPO, but also home to many nations, and not all of them are beyond reproach; many merely seek community, safety and fun, many are blissfully unaware of what happens outside their borders, and many place sincere if unfortunately misguided trust and expectation in their leaders to act in good faith and virtue. But the NPO leadership itself has shown itself to be corrupt and disillusioned beyond reconciliation; much like a mind-addled and frenzied beast, the leadership of NPO has fallen beyond the ability to show reason, restraint, or civility; it knows only antagonism, aggression, and conflict.

Support of this condemnation is not leveled at fellow nations in The Pacific that merely look for a home. It is not even leveled at members of the NPO who may act only out of love and loyalty to their community despite the dubious actions and behaviors of their superiors; though I have no love for the NPO as a whole, I wish well for the individuals who earn no part or responsibility for their faction's misdeeds. This support of condemnation is, however, leveled at the leadership of the NPO, as well as their unquestioning loyalists, who have shown that they have so much admiration and compassion for their own selves that they have none left for anyone else.

May the symbol of the NPO one day change from a rising star to a setting sun, for it is long past time for the old beast to be lain to rest. Until that time comes, may it instead become a mirror, for I can think of nothing more emblematic of the NPO than its own vainglory egomania.



(PS: Yes, this is my first post as a casual lurker. No, I don't have any clout amongst the community. This post was only half-serious, the other half was just for fun.)

[Consular]

Defenders have virtually nothing to do with this...

Disagree. Defenders are the self-appointed "defenders" (see?) against aggressive regions and players. Therefore, reasonably, they should see this as a message to mobilize and liberate these regions. If not, then this whole thing is literally useless.

Defenders defend against invasion. Is someone being invaded right now?

It's best we don't get defending involved in politics.

[Byzconia]

Disagree. Defenders are the self-appointed "defenders" (see?) against aggressive regions and players. Therefore, reasonably, they should see this as a message to mobilize and liberate these regions. If not, then this whole thing is literally useless.

Defenders defend against invasion. Is someone being invaded right now?

It's best we don't get defending involved in politics.

I've seen members of both Lazarus and Osiris complaining about the NPO invading their regions.

In fact, the first response to the OP was such a post:

As a Lazarene, I would've preferred the NPO's aggression against Lazarus through Stujenske/Kowassati and its manipulation of both sides in the Civil War to have been mentioned, but this otherwise excellently well-written and sorely needed, so I fully support it. NPO delenda est.

[The Tri State Area and Maine]

Defenders defend against invasion. Is someone being invaded right now?

It's best we don't get defending involved in politics.

I've seen members of both Lazarus and Osiris complaining about the NPO invading their regions.

In fact, the first response to the OP was such a post:

As a Lazarene, I would've preferred the NPO's aggression against Lazarus through Stujenske/Kowassati and its manipulation of both sides in the Civil War to have been mentioned, but this otherwise excellently well-written and sorely needed, so I fully support it. NPO delenda est.

Subversion and raiding are two different things.

[Byzconia]

I've seen members of both Lazarus and Osiris complaining about the NPO invading their regions.

In fact, the first response to the OP was such a post:

Subversion and raiding are two different things.

How so?

[Galiantus III]

I am just going to leave this here:

Consider it an Official Announcement from the NPO Pacific government:

In this modern day and age, Condemns are toothless things for a region. They have lost their power to brand and mark; now they are just another Commend, albeit of a different color palette.

Do not let it discourage you comrades, but fill you with pride. The Pacific is adopting a policy of honesty in her interactions with other regions, and this Condemnation is but the honest efforts of a mindless enemy. They have shown their colors; we shall do the opposite, proudly waving the Condemnation in their face.

For we are the only Game Created Region to be Condemned. Not only that but twice Condemned! Whatever our failings, whatever our faults or mistakes, take pride regardless, for know that one day our fortunes will change for the better.

From Myrth, an honorable Pacifican and former Senator in ages gone by:

Fellow Pacificans! You may have noticed that there is a resolution at vote in the WA Security Council to condemn us. Most of you are probably thinking you should vote against. Well, you would be wrong. It may seem a little odd to vote for a resolution that seeks to condemn us, but with this resolution our enemies have handed us the most perfect piece of propaganda we could have asked for.
Those who would seek to see us destroyed, indeed the wording of the resolution itself states they hope "for the destruction of the New Pacific Order", make overtures of peace and promises of reconciliation should we merely accede to their demands of us. By supporting and voting for this resolution, they show their true colours and give us the evidence in black and white of their hypocrisy. By signing their names to this resolution, and giving us a nice shiny badge on our regional homepage, they set in stone their hypocrisy for all to see.
Let those who are serious about peace and reconciliation come to us with honest intentions. Let those who seek to destroy us and our great region expose themselves for what they really are!

Vote FOR Condemning the Pacific! Vote FOR the unmasking of those who seek to do us harm! Hail Pacifica! FOR THE EMPEROR!

I proudly endorse Comrade Myrth's suggestion: vote For the Condemn, and wear it with pride. And vote according to your conscience.

And for our true enemies who brought up this resolution this is what you get for Awakening The Dragons Of The Pacific !!!

First of all, there is nothing wrong with wishing Pacificans had a better government that fairly represented the interests of its residents, citizens, and natives, and did not repeatedly make war on its fellow GCRs. Frankly no one cared what the NPO was up to before they knew the extent the NPO was inserting themselves in places they thought they could control, and had leadership been open about their imperialist designs, there would not be this kind of backlash. The NPO has a long history of straight up lying to the regions who saw them as friends. This is why many of us are indifferent to whether they meet stated demands: we know how shady governments act. We're not stupid. And we have already given the NPO a second chance (see NLO).

There is a clear pattern here. While my general impression of your incoming emperor is that he is good and he is genuine, none of that matters because we have seen this same game of musical chairs before, and nothing changed. The NPO as an organization has violated our collective trust. Look, I'll treat your new emperor with due respect, but for me it's war unless someone I can actually trust is placed in as emperor of the NPO - for example, I would make peace with an NPO headed by Milograd because I actually have a reason to believe him if he says he respects the sovereignty of Lazarus (where I am a citizen). We don't have that, though, so it is the full intention of myself and many others to do whatever is necessary to reform - or if necessary, replace - the NPO so that our home regions can rest knowing the government of the Pacific isn't silently making war on them.

Second, the NPO are in utter denial if they somehow think this condemnation is toothless. Anyone new to the Pacific (especially right now) is looking at the proposal on the floor of the WA and asking themselves if they want to join the bad guys or not. Most people who see this aren't going to join, and those who do join are going to support continued imperialism by default. This will be used to hurt NPO recruitment, and it will be effective.

[New Bremerton]

Why not liberate The Pacific instead of just condemning the NPO?

[Lord Dominator]

Why not liberate The Pacific instead of just condemning the NPO?

GCRs can't be passworded, so the only difference would be the badge looks more nice, which could be counter-productive.

[Atsvea]

I don't know if there's a more proper place find out, so I'll ask it here
What's francoism? All I know is that it involves a lot of hailing.

[Christ Triumphant]

I don't know if there's a more proper place find out, so I'll ask it here
What's francoism? All I know is that it involves a lot of hailing.

I'd likewise been following all of this obliquely, and was quite confused by it all.

So I started a thread just to ask the many questions that had come out of it. There were many helpful responses and I learned a lot. Hope this helps you, too.

Out of the Loop: NPO Controversy
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=454570

(Your specific question regarding "francoism" is addressed directly in the 3rd post, by Guy)

[The Tri State Area and Maine]

Subversion and raiding are two different things.

How so?

Subversion is going undercover in a region with the intent of taking it over or achieving political aims in a region. While raiding is also about taking over regions (with the use of subversion sometimes), it's generally not for a political cause, and is more about messing with the region than actually achieving something. Another difference being that those who raid attack inactive, dead regions usually, and they don't raid regions they are friendly with. Defenders wouldn't care because subversion isn't raiding, regardless of how similar it is.

[Doing it Rightland]

How so?

Subversion is going undercover in a region with the intent of taking it over or achieving political aims in a region. While raiding is also about taking over regions (with the use of subversion sometimes), it's generally not for a political cause, and is more about messing with the region than actually achieving something. Another difference being that those who raid attack inactive, dead regions usually, and they don't raid regions they are friendly with. Defenders wouldn't care because subversion isn't raiding, regardless of how similar it is.

Well, I would disagree somewhat. Raiding can have a variety of motives, from reviving dead regions to messing with regions to causing political change. As such, some raids are not comparable to subversion, but others absolutely are. Case in point, the recent conflict in St. Abbadon was a raid to overthrow an existing government and install a new leader. That sounds a lot like the accused subversion by the NPO, with the only difference being it happening in broad daylight.

[Byzconia]

How so?

Subversion is going undercover in a region with the intent of taking it over or achieving political aims in a region. While raiding is also about taking over regions (with the use of subversion sometimes), it's generally not for a political cause, and is more about messing with the region than actually achieving something. Another difference being that those who raid attack inactive, dead regions usually, and they don't raid regions they are friendly with. Defenders wouldn't care because subversion isn't raiding, regardless of how similar it is.

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me--and I don't see how having different tactics necessarily means different goals. They both just sound like two ways of doing the same things.

[Fauxia]

Subversion is going undercover in a region with the intent of taking it over or achieving political aims in a region. While raiding is also about taking over regions (with the use of subversion sometimes), it's generally not for a political cause, and is more about messing with the region than actually achieving something. Another difference being that those who raid attack inactive, dead regions usually, and they don't raid regions they are friendly with. Defenders wouldn't care because subversion isn't raiding, regardless of how similar it is.

Well, I would disagree somewhat. Raiding can have a variety of motives, from reviving dead regions to messing with regions to causing political change. As such, some raids are not comparable to subversion, but others absolutely are. Case in point, the recent conflict in St. Abbadon was a raid to overthrow an existing government and install a new leader. That sounds a lot like the accused subversion by the NPO, with the only difference being it happening in broad daylight.

No, not exactly. They were attempting to put a native back in power, and the current Delegate was only in power due to NPO support. It was native with help vs. native with help, which is why a lot of defenders aren’t taking sides. Arguably, this was an internal coup, which is beyond standard defender jurisdiction.

[Lord Dominator]

TBH was trying to tweak the NPO's nose, which by all appearances has worked. Topid's goals of getting back in the region happened to align with that, so we worked together.

As to the NPO-raider comparison:
Raiders openly proclaim intentions to raid regions for whatever reasons, and nowadays at least run infiltrations mostly when sufficient endos can not be reasonably gotten for the initial jump.
NPO openly proclaims that GCRs should govern themselves in their own interests, and habitually violate that by spying/infiltrations/subversions/coups.

[Dragonisia]

To quote a very famous movie,

"Spare me your mockery of justice."

*chortle*

[Pierconium]

This seems a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to me.

[Visionary Union]

The hubris and lack of self reflection on the NPO side is amazing, borderline delusional.

[Pierconium]

The hubris and lack of self reflection on the NPO side is amazing, borderline delusional.

I think you are mistaken.

The Emperor of the NPO has resigned. The Consul has been removed. Several members of the Senate have also resigned or been removed. Any one of these things is a significant action within a government like the NPO. The fact that you and others so blithely pass over them is what is amazing to me.

The new Emperor-select has issued apologies and brought in new members of the Senate, including some very vocal moderates and reformers that have been outside of Pacifican politics for a while and know the realities of the current situation abroad.

There is a real opportunity for change in this transition. Real change that hasn't been possible for over a decade. And people like you and those supporting this Condemnation are very quickly closing that window of opportunity. If you do not give the new leadership the opportunity to change then it will not. If you place them on a defensive footing from the outset then the stalwarts within the Order will react. You are pushing the Pacific towards the position that you seek to alter by reacting without thought and out of anger.

[Pierconium]

Regardless, mob mentality continues to rule and the current vote is a foregone conclusion at this point. You had your chance and you blew it. Expecting meaningful change in the face of attack is foolish. The new leadership might still make efforts and provide it, but I personally think bullying the new kids isn't the way to get it done.

[Yokiria]

Regardless, mob mentality continues to rule and the current vote is a foregone conclusion at this point. You had your chance and you blew it. Expecting meaningful change in the face of attack is foolish. The new leadership might still make efforts and provide it, but I personally think bullying the new kids isn't the way to get it done.

Mob mentality implies that it is irrational. I would like to see your argument for this not being a rational response, and compare your argument to undoubtedly similar arguments you made while Emperor.

"You had your chance and you blew it" is certainly projection on your part, Pierconium.

Finally, facing due consequence for wide-ranging subversive actions does not qualify as "bullying kids".

[Pierconium]

Regardless, mob mentality continues to rule and the current vote is a foregone conclusion at this point. You had your chance and you blew it. Expecting meaningful change in the face of attack is foolish. The new leadership might still make efforts and provide it, but I personally think bullying the new kids isn't the way to get it done.

Mob mentality implies that it is irrational. I would like to see your argument for this not being a rational response, and compare your argument to undoubtedly similar arguments you made while Emperor.

"You had your chance and you blew it" is certainly projection on your part, Pierconium.

Finally, facing due consequence for wide-ranging subversive actions does not qualify as "bullying kids".

It is completely irrational to respond with immediate condemnation when the demands of the aggrieved parties are immediately and completely met, as has been done in the current situation.

It is bullying to follow up a demand, which was met, with continued badgering and insult. 'Give us your milk money today and we can all move forward' is followed by 'give us your lunch money today and tomorrow and forever'.