NationStates

Armaros wrote:

Cedoria wrote:For the record, I agree. I think the Liberations recently have been deserved, and that this one is as well, but I do hope to see them used sparingly.

This. However, I think that in this case a condemnation will do. If the condemnation labels them as homophobic, fascist (or harbouring fascists) and more of that, I think many will be driven away and new players will hesitate to join. I'm not sure if a lib is needed here.

Too many labels... too many adjectives to keep track of.

Lalop wrote:Lol, can you lefties realize that your not the only ones on NS, and trying to offensively lib them is oly gonna make them stronger. Regarding the Discord allegations,in my option,so what,all my black-African American friends have said that word many times, and they have gotten that word said to them in front of my eyes and they don't care. The only ones who do are snowflake lefties. Although I did day nothing of the sort, because as a Jew I would prefer no one called me a 'like'.

You gotta love the political phenomenon known as the double standard

Lalop wrote:Lol, can you lefties realize that your not the only ones on NS, and trying to offensively lib them is oly gonna make them stronger. Regarding the Discord allegations,in my option,so what,all my black-African American friends have said that word many times, and they have gotten that word said to them in front of my eyes and they don't care. The only ones who do are snowflake lefties. Although I did day nothing of the sort, because as a Jew I would prefer no one called me a 'kike'.

First, grammar is your best friend. Please use it properly. For all your region's love of white culture (as your senate speakers signature so blatantly displays) you sure don't do a good job of properly adhering to the rules of a "white language."

You do realize how immensely hypocritical your comment is right? You're literally saying that you should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. I'm THUNDERSTRUCK at the sheer audacity you have to state that.

The point of this liberation, whether it be written by separatists of your region or not, is that you were all caught red-handed with some damning evidence of your values and attitudes. You're right when you say you're not the only ones on NS, that's true. And the people who are very rightly offended by the words spoken within your toxic cesspool of a region have the right to craft ways to boot that out what they feel is hostile towards them. Tolerance is not giving people the right to spread intolerance. That's a false equivalency, so stop trying to use it to play victim and justify the hatred that your region so willingly accepts.

You can't expect people to simply sit there and choose to be offended and willingly accept the hatred being thrown their way. It's not weakness, it's a human response.

Ubertas wrote:

Lalop wrote:Lol, can you lefties realize that your not the only ones on NS, and trying to offensively lib them is oly gonna make them stronger. Regarding the Discord allegations,in my option,so what,all my black-African American friends have said that word many times, and they have gotten that word said to them in front of my eyes and they don't care. The only ones who do are snowflake lefties. Although I did day nothing of the sort, because as a Jew I would prefer no one called me a 'kike'.

First, grammar is your best friend. Please use it properly. For all your region's love of white culture (as your senate speakers signature so blatantly displays) you sure don't do a good job of properly adhering to the rules of a "white language."

You do realize how immensely hypocritical your comment is right? You're literally saying that you should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. I'm THUNDERSTRUCK at the sheer audacity you have to state that.

The point of this liberation, whether it be written by separatists of your region or not, is that you were all caught red-handed with some damning evidence of your values and attitudes. You're right when you say you're not the only ones on NS, that's true. And the people who are very rightly offended by the words spoken within your toxic cesspool of a region have the right to craft ways to boot that out what they feel is hostile towards them. Tolerance is not giving people the right to spread intolerance. That's a false equivalency, so stop trying to use it to play victim and justify the hatred that your region so willingly accepts.

You can't expect people to simply sit there and choose to be offended and willingly accept the hatred being thrown their way. It's not weakness, it's a human response.

Let’s see here..we have TCB’s foreign affairs minister throwing around such terms such as white culture and white language, as well as still making the claims that our region is “toxic” (That term again?) in an apparent attempt to provoke a reaction. I don’t necessarily agree with all of Lalop’s points, though this is no way to respond. Then, you have your ending argument that our region accepts this behavior, which, in nearly ALL of our posts, we said we don’t! Could you at least pretend to have read or cared about any of the content in our posts?

I don’t know what I expected from someone in your position.

Armaros wrote:Oh god. I was all for the anti-fascist libs, but now everyone decides to try to liberate every group they hate.

Aren't they though! Jeez people, give it a rest.

Gagium wrote:I don’t know what I expected from someone in your position.

Don't expect much from a commie.

Gagium wrote:]
Let’s see here..we have TCB’s foreign affairs minister throwing around such terms such as white culture and white language, as well as still making the claims that our region is “toxic” (That term again?) in an apparent attempt to provoke a reaction. I don’t necessarily agree with all of Lalop’s points, though this is no way to respond. Then, you have your ending argument that our region accepts this behavior, which, in nearly ALL of our posts, we said we don’t! Could you at least pretend to have read or cared about any of the content in our posts?

I don’t know what I expected from someone in your position.

Yes, yes, yes I’ve seen these sad excuses and efforts to condemn the behavior that’s come to light. Doesn’t excuse the fact that the evidence I’ve seen points to the contrary. You say that you disagree, but actions speak louder, and form what actions I’ve witnessed I fail to see any meaning behind your words. You say your region does not accept this, when it is you yourself and members of your government who were caught saying these things. Even if you say “oh I didn’t mean it” or “oh I condemn that behavior now’ you yourself and your friends in here said those words, and you cannot unsay something.

As for my attempt to “provoke a reaction.” My good man, the truth often hurts and can be scathing. No sense is attempting to blanket it with euphemisms. You are not the victim, so stop using that subterfuge. It’s a poor attempt at it at best.

Now I have more pertinent matters than arguing with sad and disgruntled persons. Ciao!

Ubertas wrote:

Lalop wrote:Lol, can you lefties realize that your not the only ones on NS, and trying to offensively lib them is oly gonna make them stronger. Regarding the Discord allegations,in my option,so what,all my black-African American friends have said that word many times, and they have gotten that word said to them in front of my eyes and they don't care. The only ones who do are snowflake lefties. Although I did day nothing of the sort, because as a Jew I would prefer no one called me a 'kike'.

First, grammar is your best friend. Please use it properly. For all your region's love of white culture (as your senate speakers signature so blatantly displays) you sure don't do a good job of properly adhering to the rules of a "white language."

You do realize how immensely hypocritical your comment is right? You're literally saying that you should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. I'm THUNDERSTRUCK at the sheer audacity you have to state that.

The point of this liberation, whether it be written by separatists of your region or not, is that you were all caught red-handed with some damning evidence of your values and attitudes. You're right when you say you're not the only ones on NS, that's true. And the people who are very rightly offended by the words spoken within your toxic cesspool of a region have the right to craft ways to boot that out what they feel is hostile towards them. Tolerance is not giving people the right to spread intolerance. That's a false equivalency, so stop trying to use it to play victim and justify the hatred that your region so willingly accepts.

You can't expect people to simply sit there and choose to be offended and willingly accept the hatred being thrown their way. It's not weakness, it's a human response.

All this is is 1 thing and 1 thing only. Weakness. I don't know what I expected from someone who most likely spending all their time on the internet and probably on welfare,but this is ridiculous! Get a spine,people say things learn how to sit there and take it. And yes,people should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. Its a funny thing called the first amendment,but do commies believe those things again?

Lalop wrote:And yes,people should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community.

It's almost as if that's exactly what we're doing

Kavagrad wrote:

Lalop wrote:And yes,people should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community.

It's almost as if that's exactly what we're doing

Agree you guys have the freedom to do that, that does not mean its a good proposal.

Lalop wrote:

Ubertas wrote:
First, grammar is your best friend. Please use it properly. For all your region's love of white culture (as your senate speakers signature so blatantly displays) you sure don't do a good job of properly adhering to the rules of a "white language."

You do realize how immensely hypocritical your comment is right? You're literally saying that you should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. I'm THUNDERSTRUCK at the sheer audacity you have to state that.

The point of this liberation, whether it be written by separatists of your region or not, is that you were all caught red-handed with some damning evidence of your values and attitudes. You're right when you say you're not the only ones on NS, that's true. And the people who are very rightly offended by the words spoken within your toxic cesspool of a region have the right to craft ways to boot that out what they feel is hostile towards them. Tolerance is not giving people the right to spread intolerance. That's a false equivalency, so stop trying to use it to play victim and justify the hatred that your region so willingly accepts.

You can't expect people to simply sit there and choose to be offended and willingly accept the hatred being thrown their way. It's not weakness, it's a human response.

All this is is 1 thing and 1 thing only. Weakness. I don't know what I expected from someone who most likely spending all their time on the internet and probably on welfare,but this is ridiculous! Get a spine,people say things learn how to sit there and take it. And yes,people should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. Its a funny thing called the first amendment,but do commies believe those things again?

As said literally every time something like this comes up "You are free to say what you want, but others are free to criticize it." Besides, that's not even how the First Amendment works, nor is this even an American site that cares about the First Amendment.

Although, I do oppose this liberation, as I think it would be better to just blacklist the people involved and the region and move on, like we have done in the past.

Lalop wrote:All this is is 1 thing and 1 thing only. Weakness. I don't know what I expected from someone who most likely spending all their time on the internet and probably on welfare,but this is ridiculous! Get a spine,people say things learn how to sit there and take it. And yes,people should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. Its a funny thing called the first amendment,but do commies believe those things again?

Next time, please speak in sentences.

Lalop wrote:

Ubertas wrote:
First, grammar is your best friend. Please use it properly. For all your region's love of white culture (as your senate speakers signature so blatantly displays) you sure don't do a good job of properly adhering to the rules of a "white language."

You do realize how immensely hypocritical your comment is right? You're literally saying that you should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. I'm THUNDERSTRUCK at the sheer audacity you have to state that.

The point of this liberation, whether it be written by separatists of your region or not, is that you were all caught red-handed with some damning evidence of your values and attitudes. You're right when you say you're not the only ones on NS, that's true. And the people who are very rightly offended by the words spoken within your toxic cesspool of a region have the right to craft ways to boot that out what they feel is hostile towards them. Tolerance is not giving people the right to spread intolerance. That's a false equivalency, so stop trying to use it to play victim and justify the hatred that your region so willingly accepts.

You can't expect people to simply sit there and choose to be offended and willingly accept the hatred being thrown their way. It's not weakness, it's a human response.

All this is is 1 thing and 1 thing only. Weakness. I don't know what I expected from someone who most likely spending all their time on the internet and probably on welfare,but this is ridiculous! Get a spine,people say things learn how to sit there and take it. And yes,people should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. Its a funny thing called the first amendment,but do commies believe those things again?

My my such hostility. Actually I’m a member of the petite bourgeois, just as Lenin and Kropotkin were. Your citing of the first amendment is highly erroneous, although that’s to be expected as most Americans don’t know their own consti.

The first amendment states as fellows:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

1) am I congress making a law to limit your freedom of speech?
Nope

2) am I a senator or other government official attempting to make a law irl to do this?
No

Your slapdash argument is therefore invalid.

Gagium wrote:Your argument seems to entirely be based upon the superstititon that I am lying about being against it, with no evidence or rational thought to back up your claim. If you’re going to continue to call our points “excuses” for something we repeatedly said we were against and for something there are no excuses for, then I’d wish to end the argument until you’re willing to at least respect my argument instead of simply dismissing my points as ‘lies’. Thank you

Again, I will point out that you've actually lied. Provably. You stated that all the evidence we have comes from the Spring, thereby implying that the behaviour stopped then. However, I have multiple screenshots of this sort of behaviour from senior members of FCN, including yourself, in June. That, on your part, was a lie. Don't lie, and then complain when I call you out for it.

Secondly, here's why I'm sceptical of your claim that you, personally, oppose the bill that allows you to spew racial hatred: You fucking spewed racial hatred and got away with it because of the bill. If New Waldensia says he opposed it, I might have a reason to take him at his word, as I have no evidence to suggest that he benefited from it. If you wanted equal consideration in this matter, perhaps you should have taken that into account before you placed the n-word on your Discord 880 times! Taking your claim with a pinch of salt isn't exactly unreasonable, given the circumstances. If you can't understand that, then I'm not going to waste any further time on this silly line of reasoning as to why I'm at fault.

Lalop wrote:

Ubertas wrote:
First, grammar is your best friend. Please use it properly. For all your region's love of white culture (as your senate speakers signature so blatantly displays) you sure don't do a good job of properly adhering to the rules of a "white language."

You do realize how immensely hypocritical your comment is right? You're literally saying that you should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. I'm THUNDERSTRUCK at the sheer audacity you have to state that.

The point of this liberation, whether it be written by separatists of your region or not, is that you were all caught red-handed with some damning evidence of your values and attitudes. You're right when you say you're not the only ones on NS, that's true. And the people who are very rightly offended by the words spoken within your toxic cesspool of a region have the right to craft ways to boot that out what they feel is hostile towards them. Tolerance is not giving people the right to spread intolerance. That's a false equivalency, so stop trying to use it to play victim and justify the hatred that your region so willingly accepts.

You can't expect people to simply sit there and choose to be offended and willingly accept the hatred being thrown their way. It's not weakness, it's a human response.

All this is is 1 thing and 1 thing only. Weakness. I don't know what I expected from someone who most likely spending all their time on the internet and probably on welfare,but this is ridiculous! Get a spine,people say things learn how to sit there and take it. And yes,people should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. Its a funny thing called the first amendment,but do commies believe those things again?

Funny how people are not going to willingly sit there and take it though. What you're asking for is the freedom to essentially bully people without repercussion. Too bad, nobody is inclined to grant you that.


The First Amendment doesn't apply here. This is not a case of the US government arresting you for what you say, this website is run by an Australian, and it's rules are completely irrelevant to freedom of speech.

Lalop wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:It's almost as if that's exactly what we're doing

Agree you guys have the freedom to do that that dors not mean its a good proposal.

It's substantially better then allowing the sort of stuff that's coming out of FCN.

Lalop wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:It's almost as if that's exactly what we're doing

Agree you guys have the freedom to do that that dors not mean its a good proposal.

Ah, of course. 'Cause when the right spew their racist shit, it's fine, but when the left challenge them on it, it's evil.

C'mon, now.

Cedoria wrote:

Lalop wrote:All this is is 1 thing and 1 thing only. Weakness. I don't know what I expected from someone who most likely spending all their time on the internet and probably on welfare,but this is ridiculous! Get a spine,people say things learn how to sit there and take it. And yes,people should be given the freedom to spread values that are inherently going to push people out of this community. Its a funny thing called the first amendment,but do commies believe those things again?

Funny how people are not going to willingly sit there and take it though. What you're asking for is the freedom to essentially bully people without repercussion. Too bad, nobody is inclined to grant you that.


The First Amendment doesn't apply here. This is not a case of the US government arresting you for what you say, this website is run by an Australian, and it's rules are completely irrelevant to freedom of speech.

The first amendment does not apply here,although it might for me as a US citizen? But Im saying that in context,cuz if this was the US senate then it would be law breaking. Anyone who does not support the 1st amendment,or really any for that matter has something real messed up in there head.

Lalop wrote:

Cedoria wrote:
Funny how people are not going to willingly sit there and take it though. What you're asking for is the freedom to essentially bully people without repercussion. Too bad, nobody is inclined to grant you that.


The First Amendment doesn't apply here. This is not a case of the US government arresting you for what you say, this website is run by an Australian, and it's rules are completely irrelevant to freedom of speech.

The first amendment does not apply here,although it might for me as a US citizen?

That's not how laws work, but please, carry on.

Lalop wrote:

Cedoria wrote:
Funny how people are not going to willingly sit there and take it though. What you're asking for is the freedom to essentially bully people without repercussion. Too bad, nobody is inclined to grant you that.


The First Amendment doesn't apply here. This is not a case of the US government arresting you for what you say, this website is run by an Australian, and it's rules are completely irrelevant to freedom of speech.

The first amendment does not apply here,although it might for me as a US citizen? But Im saying that in context,cuz if this was the US senate then it would be law breaking. Anyone who does not support the 1st amendment,or really any for that matter has something real messed up in there head.

No. It doesn't, because it only covers actions taken by your government. If you are a US citizen, you might want to learn a bit more about how it works before you cite it in an argument against someone who knows a fair bit more about it.

If it was the US Senate. It is not, however, and most of the world does not have the same standards for a number of good reasons, therefore the argument is invalid.

1. This site is privately owned by Max Barry. It is not owned or run by any government, therefore their laws are not applicable here.

2. Max Barry is Australian, so if any laws affect NS it would probably be Australian laws. There is no such thing as the First Amendment in Australia.

3. While on NS, every player is subject to Max Barry's rules. His laws. Don't forget that. I'm sure a moderator will be along to confirm this.

Kavagrad wrote:

Gagium wrote:Your argument seems to entirely be based upon the superstititon that I am lying about being against it, with no evidence or rational thought to back up your claim. If you’re going to continue to call our points “excuses” for something we repeatedly said we were against and for something there are no excuses for, then I’d wish to end the argument until you’re willing to at least respect my argument instead of simply dismissing my points as ‘lies’. Thank you

Again, I will point out that you've actually lied. Provably. You stated that all the evidence we have comes from the Spring, thereby implying that the behaviour stopped then. However, I have multiple screenshots of this sort of behaviour from senior members of FCN, including yourself, in June. That, on your part, was a lie. Don't lie, and then complain when I call you out for it.

Secondly, here's why I'm sceptical of your claim that you, personally, oppose the bill that allows you to spew racial hatred: You fucking spewed racial hatred and got away with it because of the bill. If New Waldensia says he opposed it, I might have a reason to take him at his word, as I have no evidence to suggest that he benefited from it. If you wanted equal consideration in this matter, perhaps you should have taken that into account before you placed the n-word on your Discord 880 times! Taking your claim with a pinch of salt isn't exactly unreasonable, given the circumstances. If you can't understand that, then I'm not going to waste any further time on this silly line of reasoning as to why I'm at fault.

Spring ended on June the 21st: For all reasons concerned, the evidence IS from the spring; Unless it was from a later date within June. Nevertheless, assuming that I ‘lied’ about everything because of a small inaccuracy within the date of a comment I made in June (According to the evidence?) is low. I don’t know anyone who can remember the dates of every comment they made on discord. Again, I haven’t yet accused you of lying about anything, merely pointed out where I believe you’re wrong and argued against it, and yet your argument, from my perspective, seems to be based upon 2 things:

1. The entirety of the FCN should be liberated because of the actions of a few users a few months ago

And

2. Gagium (and the region?) still support(s) this behavior, I know because Gagium said the messages were sent in the spring instead of in the summer

Nevertheless, we do have to keep in mind that the argument on this thread seems to nearly entirely be based upon one line. The flawed proposal also alleges that the FCN should be liberated for supporting KAISERREICH, which it seems were one of the first regions taken victim by the relatively recent liberation trend. The proposal even alleges that the KAISERREICH armed forces have joined our Army of Freedom. A few members from their region did assist us in some raids, though their armed forces haven’t joined up with ours.

Then again, we have the clause that asserts that the FCN is fascist, thus we need to be liberated. Most of us are either socially conservative or socially liberal, and the lot of us, with perhaps a couple exceptions, are right economically. As I said, the only open fascist has left the region. I’m not saying there’s any more fascists, though I can’t guess anyone else in the region that may be a fascist.

We really do have to take the credibility of the proposal’s author in mind when deciding what we will vote on this proposal. The person behind the WA puppet created simply to propose this resolution (Who didn’t even bother to write a thread for the proposal!) seems to be using the same tactics in the failed condemnation of the LCN proposal: Alledging that they are fascist and using rhetoric that they should be punished for being big bad fascists.

We’ve all done bad things in the past, and said bad things in the past, myself included. I regret anything I said or joked about in the past that has offended anyone. However, none of us are ‘fascist’ in the FCN, and this activity has since stopped, and has been stopped for months now. The fact that these images have existed for months, and have NOW been used to liberate the FCN, ideally after some events I may have mentioned in previous posts, does make me question the authors motive behind this proposal: It does make it seem an awfully lot like a revenge proposal.

New Waldensia wrote:

Caracasus wrote:Can we all see the evidence? Unlike the COD, KR or NE where they handily admitted that they were fascists and anyone who cared to could check out their RMB/Telegram spam etc confirming this, this isn't a region that either seems to actively promote fascism on their WFE or elsewhere.

I'd really, really like offensive liberations to be confined to fascist regions - so I think there's a need to see some pretty damning evidence that they're fascists or at the very least have a lot of fascist types running unchecked by higher ups in their region to say whether or not they're fascists or providing a safe space for fascists.

The only self-proclaimed fascist we had left after a failed coup and helped found a new region.

Earlier this year, we helped an ally raid a fascist region. We may be right-wing, which is apparently a crime worthy of punishment to much of NS, but we absolutely are not, never have been, and never will be fascist.

I would agree with that. After all, I seriously doubt that FCN would have let me join and much less stay since it's well known that I am Jewish. The Anti-Semitism claims are a joke and it's a joke I don't think is funny. As for the other issues, I cannot say anything as I was not a part of FCN at that time. So until I see Anti-Semitism among FCN members, I will remain. I still see this "Liberation" crap as some psycho's cry for serious therapy.

Turghan wrote:

New Waldensia wrote:The only self-proclaimed fascist we had left after a failed coup and helped found a new region.

Earlier this year, we helped an ally raid a fascist region. We may be right-wing, which is apparently a crime worthy of punishment to much of NS, but we absolutely are not, never have been, and never will be fascist.

I would agree with that. After all, I seriously doubt that FCN would have let me join and much less stay since it's well known that I am Jewish. The Anti-Semitism claims are a joke and it's a joke I don't think is funny. As for the other issues, I cannot say anything as I was not a part of FCN at that time. So until I see Anti-Semitism among FCN members, I will remain. I still see this "Liberation" crap as some psycho's cry for serious therapy.

Nice! First other jew that I've met on NS! Conservative, Orthodox or Reform? 'I'm conservative' I have also seen no anti semitism in the FCN,but if there is 'which I doubt' plz show me because then I might switch regions.

Turghan wrote:

New Waldensia wrote:The only self-proclaimed fascist we had left after a failed coup and helped found a new region.

Earlier this year, we helped an ally raid a fascist region. We may be right-wing, which is apparently a crime worthy of punishment to much of NS, but we absolutely are not, never have been, and never will be fascist.

I would agree with that. After all, I seriously doubt that FCN would have let me join and much less stay since it's well known that I am Jewish. The Anti-Semitism claims are a joke and it's a joke I don't think is funny. As for the other issues, I cannot say anything as I was not a part of FCN at that time. So until I see Anti-Semitism among FCN members, I will remain. I still see this "Liberation" crap as some psycho's cry for serious therapy.

So you're saying that if there were evidence of anti-semitic behaviour from FCN's members, you would change your mind? 'Cause funnily enough, I have something you might want to see...

Cedoria wrote:

Lalop wrote:The first amendment does not apply here,although it might for me as a US citizen? But Im saying that in context,cuz if this was the US senate then it would be law breaking. Anyone who does not support the 1st amendment,or really any for that matter has something real messed up in there head.

No. It doesn't, because it only covers actions taken by your government. If you are a US citizen, you might want to learn a bit more about how it works before you cite it in an argument against someone who knows a fair bit more about it.

If it was the US Senate. It is not, however, and most of the world does not have the same standards for a number of good reasons, therefore the argument is invalid.

Again,I was hypothetically putting this in context,I did not mean it literally.