NationStates

Tinhampton wrote:https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=129264

It's interesting to see that, in spite of... yeah, let's just say "shit that happened offsite," Gagium and most high-ranking FCN members are still in favour of this Liberation.

And people still say that Liberations don't get treated like rewards.

Kavagrad wrote:So when your own Founder was continuing with this behaviour in June... how exactly do you want to explain that?

Due to the actions of San Carlos Islands (Colorado-Kansas of mod-deletion fame) in passing a constitutional amendment with his Senate lemmings (almost all of whom have left the FCN for the UCS) our government is prevented from taking any disciplinary action when it comes to speech on Discord or the RMB (except when RMB conflicts with NS rules).

CK's amendment, and another similar bill, was passed after I, as Secretary of Internal Affairs l, took disciplinary action on two different occasions against him and his cohorts.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

Tinhampton wrote:https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=129264

It's interesting to see that, in spite of... yeah, let's just say "shit that happened offsite," Gagium and most high-ranking FCN members are still in favour of this Liberation.

And people still say that Liberations don't get treated like rewards.

The proposal itself brings the FCN into the light, although the Security Council's "Liberation" is nothing more than a display of political power over regional sovereignty.

1. Is our region not the victim of this absurd proposal? If not, then who is? It is certainly interesting how you managed to ignore my first statement on this and dismiss it as “playing victim”.

2. I find it amusing how someone who never had access to our discord nor the channels thinks he knows more about the messages sent on it then me. No, they are from the spring, not the summer. Moving on.

3.Again, you’re claiming to know more about the messages and activity on our discord than I do. We all do things we regret, and I’m not going to refute the claim that we said bad stuff on our discord awhile back, but as I said, the activity had completely halted. You’re inferring quite the but based off of aged images.

4.Okay then.

5. /skip

6.As I stated, we already have. The only openly fascist people are gone, and we aren’t going to go around on a with hunt banjecting anyone who we think is “fascist”. The idea that you suggest that the Army of Freedom, named a year ago, is a cover is especially absurd.

7. Right, half my regions population are secret fascists that all lie about their political beliefs to each other. No.

EDIT: I do find it interesting how all these screenshots were shown to me months ago, and yet this proposal is timed the way it is, after other FCN events concerning quite a few members occurred. If they genuinely wanted this activity condemned, why didn’t this proposal exist back in May or June? The screenshots and allegations of racism are just a tool used to advance this disgusting proposal, written by users who have their own agenda separate of what the proposal mentions.

Kavagrad wrote:

Armaros wrote:Eh, wait a second. After I got the evidence, I got a tg from a native of FCN. They told me, that in fact, a number of the people in the evidence went over with you after you failed to stage a coup in FCN. These people include a self-proclaimed fascist, according to the native in question. After that, and another accusation against, this post of yours sounds a bit hypocritical.

The vast number of people in the screenshots provided remain in FCN, including their Founder and Senate Speaker. I can't speak for Crimsonfield or UCS, but if there is such behaviour going on over there too, that should be looked into after FCN is dealt with, rather than allowing FCN to use it as an excuse or a way to deflect.

Crimsonfield is incredibly manipulative and has gone on many crusades against people in my circle over the summer.

If you want a quick summary:

Wrote a condemnation against my region, (failed 10:1) banned dozens of people in the United Conservative Nations for wrongthink, led a coup in the UCN anyway, and then he fell off from my view for a bit.

His latest escapade (that brought him back into my view) is trying to coup the FCN, leading to his banning, so I would take ANYTHING he does, says, or supports with a very unhealthy pile of salt. He isn't trustworthy.

Very possible he had a hand in this liberation, as his lot enjoy using the WA as a weapon against people they don't like (see Condemn the League of Conservative Nations)

Edited for grammar.

Oh cool my old region's getting a shiny new badge

Gagium wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:I don't particularly care why you were exposed for this behaviour. What matters is that the behaviour came to light, and there needs to be consequences. You don't get to play the victim, I'm afraid.

Many of them are from this summer, actually, but let's move swiftly on from that lie.

Sure, some of them have. Your Senate Speaker hasn't. You haven't. And yet you were both responsible for a significant amount of this behaviour. This is deflection, plain and simple.

Funny how someone who used the n-word over 800 times on their own Discord server can suddenly be against "that sort of behavior".

As you deserve.

And North Korea is a "Democratic People's Republic". Maybe you should focus more on rooting out the open racists and closeted fascists from you region, rather than playing with your little R/D army.

And given all the evidence, forgive me for not trusting what your members have to say at face value.

Lemme throw you a quick TG.

1. Is our region not the victim of this absurd proposal? If not, then who is? It is certainly interesting how you managed to ignore my first statement on this and dismiss it as “playing victim”.

2. I find it amusing how someone who never had access to our discord nor the channels thinks he knows more about the messages sent on it then me. No, they are from the spring, not the summer. Moving on.

3.Again, you’re claiming to know more about the messages and activity on our discord than I do. We all do things we regret, and I’m not going to refute the claim that we said bad stuff on our discord awhile back, but as I said, the activity had completely halted. You’re inferring quite the but based off of aged images.

4.Okay then.

5. /skip

6.As I stated, we already have. The only openly fascist people are gone, and we aren’t going to go around on a with hunt banjecting anyone who we think is “fascist”. The idea that you suggest that the Army of Freedom, named a year ago, is a cover is especially absurd.

7. Right, half my regions population are secret fascists that all lie about their political beliefs to each other. No.

1. I don't believe that you're a victim, because I believe that you and FCN deserve what you're getting.

2. I have screenshots, you're lying, there are multiple from the summer. June 21st, June 25th.

3. I certainly know more about your Discord than you're willing to tell the truth about. I do appreciate the confession, though.

4. I understand that you don't want to say anything, because you know you're guilty of that, but try and give me something a bit more substantive to play with.

5. Guess I don't need to say anything on this one.

6. Did I say it was a cover? ...No! Ding Ding Ding! I said it proves nothing, and you're not doing much to help by point-blank refusing to consider doing anything about the obvious toxicity in your region. Not surprising, admittedly, given that you're complicit.

7. This strawman is the least of your problems.

Calamari wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:The vast number of people in the screenshots provided remain in FCN, including their Founder and Senate Speaker. I can't speak for Crimsonfield or UCS, but if there is such behaviour going on over there too, that should be looked into after FCN is dealt with, rather than allowing FCN to use it as an excuse or a way to deflect.

Crimsonfield is incredibly manipulative and has gone on many crusades against people in my circle over the summer.

If you want a quick summary:

Wrote a condemnation against my region, (failed 10:1) banned dozens of people in the United Conservative Nations for wrongthink, led a coup in the UCN anyway, and then he fell off from my view for a bit.

His latest escapade (that brought him back into my view) is trying to coup the FCN, leading to his banning, so I would take ANYTHING he does, says, or supports with a very unhealthy pile of salt. He isn't trustworthy.

Very possible he had a hand in this liberation, as his lot enjoy using the WA as a weapon against people they don't like (see Condemn the League of Conservative Nations)

Edited for grammar.

As I've already said, I don't actually care why this behaviour was exposed. What matters is that it was exposed, and now there must be repercussions. I'm don't particularly care what Crimsonfield has or hasn't done, or where the proposal came from, or what secret agenda there may be behind it (and given that we don't even know who wrote the liberation, I don't care to speculate). That's not relevant to the behaviour that went on in FCN, and thus it does not relate to my support of this proposal.

New Waldensia wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:So when your own Founder was continuing with this behaviour in June... how exactly do you want to explain that?

Due to the actions of San Carlos Islands (Colorado-Kansas of mod-deletion fame) in passing a constitutional amendment with his Senate lemmings (almost all of whom have left the FCN for the UCS) our government is prevented from taking any disciplinary action when it comes to speech on Discord or the RMB (except when RMB conflicts with NS rules).

CK's amendment, and another similar bill, was passed after I, as Secretary of Internal Affairs l, took disciplinary action on two different occasions against him and his cohorts.

"They were allowed to do it, so it's okay that they did it, and also the people that were responsible for the rule are gone now, but we still can't change the rule for some reason, but we're totally not the problem, you guys!" isn't exactly the best of excuses, although I understand that you're critically short of excuses, so what else was I to expect?

Kavagrad wrote:

New Waldensia wrote:Due to the actions of San Carlos Islands (Colorado-Kansas of mod-deletion fame) in passing a constitutional amendment with his Senate lemmings (almost all of whom have left the FCN for the UCS) our government is prevented from taking any disciplinary action when it comes to speech on Discord or the RMB (except when RMB conflicts with NS rules).

CK's amendment, and another similar bill, was passed after I, as Secretary of Internal Affairs l, took disciplinary action on two different occasions against him and his cohorts.

"They were allowed to do it, so it's okay that they did it, and also the people that were responsible for the rule are gone now, but we still can't change the rule for some reason, but we're totally not the problem, you guys!" isn't exactly the best of excuses, although I understand that you're critically short of excuses, so what else was I to expect?

Gee, it's not as if the region runs off of a democratic model and that the founder despite being executive, can't overturn a bill that was the will of the legislative body.

Prussian Polish Commonwealth wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:"They were allowed to do it, so it's okay that they did it, and also the people that were responsible for the rule are gone now, but we still can't change the rule for some reason, but we're totally not the problem, you guys!" isn't exactly the best of excuses, although I understand that you're critically short of excuses, so what else was I to expect?

Gee, it's not as if the region runs off of a democratic model and that the founder despite being executive, can't overturn a bill that was the will of the legislative body.

Based on the fact that the Founder was happy to use the n-word over 800 times on the FCN Discord, I doubt he'd want to overturn such a bill

Kavagrad wrote:

New Waldensia wrote:Due to the actions of San Carlos Islands (Colorado-Kansas of mod-deletion fame) in passing a constitutional amendment with his Senate lemmings (almost all of whom have left the FCN for the UCS) our government is prevented from taking any disciplinary action when it comes to speech on Discord or the RMB (except when RMB conflicts with NS rules).

CK's amendment, and another similar bill, was passed after I, as Secretary of Internal Affairs l, took disciplinary action on two different occasions against him and his cohorts.

"They were allowed to do it, so it's okay that they did it, and also the people that were responsible for the rule are gone now, but we still can't change the rule for some reason, but we're totally not the problem, you guys!" isn't exactly the best of excuses, although I understand that you're critically short of excuses, so what else was I to expect?

We’ve already stated several times that we are against that sort of behavior, especially New Waldensia, and you yet still manage to be ignorant of our posts and continue to thrust whatever is going through your mind at us. I don’t understand how you derived your twisted version of New Waldensia being okay with this sort of behavior from what he said at all: He is simply stating that some of the users behind this behavior made it illegal for them to be punished for their actions in the region. As a democratic region, we abide by our laws. I believe that we’ve been plenty respectful of your argument, however wrong it may be, yet it seems as if you’re completely ignoring ours and twisting New Waldensias words.

Kavagrad wrote:

Prussian Polish Commonwealth wrote:Gee, it's not as if the region runs off of a democratic model and that the founder despite being executive, can't overturn a bill that was the will of the legislative body.

Based on the fact that the Founder was happy to use the n-word over 800 times on the FCN Discord, I doubt he'd want to overturn such a bill

Can we keep this debate on the subject? I don’t see how this allegation or joke or whatever it is relates to the bill as being discussed or the topic as being discussed.

Prussian Polish Commonwealth wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:"They were allowed to do it, so it's okay that they did it, and also the people that were responsible for the rule are gone now, but we still can't change the rule for some reason, but we're totally not the problem, you guys!" isn't exactly the best of excuses, although I understand that you're critically short of excuses, so what else was I to expect?

Gee, it's not as if the region runs off of a democratic model and that the founder despite being executive, can't overturn a bill that was the will of the legislative body.

Dealing with OOC misconduct shouldn't require the legislative body. That isn't an issue that an IC legislature should have authority on.

A region's inefficient system isn't an excuse for allowing these kinds of things to happen.

Gagium wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:Based on the fact that the Founder was happy to use the n-word over 800 times on the FCN Discord, I doubt he'd want to overturn such a bill

Can we keep this debate on the subject? I don’t see how this allegation or joke or whatever it is relates to the bill as being discussed or the topic as being discussed.

You should have probably realize that the "allegation" he made, along with other similar events, is the reason that this liberation was even proposed.

Kavagrad wrote:

Prussian Polish Commonwealth wrote:Gee, it's not as if the region runs off of a democratic model and that the founder despite being executive, can't overturn a bill that was the will of the legislative body.

Based on the fact that the Founder was happy to use the n-word over 800 times on the FCN Discord, I doubt he'd want to overturn such a bill

"800 times"-"8oo times!"-"800 times!"-"800 TIMES!" Wow, for a server that's almost a year and a half old I'm very surprised that it's been said by him only 800 times seeming how you think this behavior was running rampant on there. Plus, knowing how almost all of that's spam or even exposing people for saying the word (lol) it really weakens your argument

Viridus wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:Based on the fact that the Founder was happy to use the n-word over 800 times on the FCN Discord, I doubt he'd want to overturn such a bill

"800 times"-"8oo times!"-"800 times!"-"800 TIMES!" Wow, for a server that's almost a year and a half old I'm very surprised that it's been said by him only 800 times seeming how you think this behavior was running rampant on there. Plus, knowing how almost all of that's spam or even exposing people for saying the word (lol) it really weakens your argument

I don't see your point. Also, he was only talking about the Founder specifically, not the region in general (although, to be fair, this thread is about the region in general.)

Gagium wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:"They were allowed to do it, so it's okay that they did it, and also the people that were responsible for the rule are gone now, but we still can't change the rule for some reason, but we're totally not the problem, you guys!" isn't exactly the best of excuses, although I understand that you're critically short of excuses, so what else was I to expect?

We’ve already stated several times that we are against that sort of behavior, especially New Waldensia, and you yet still manage to be ignorant of our posts and continue to thrust whatever is going through your mind at us. I don’t understand how you derived your twisted version of New Waldensia being okay with this sort of behavior from what he said at all: He is simply stating that some of the users behind this behavior made it illegal for them to be punished for their actions in the region. As a democratic region, we abide by our laws. I believe that we’ve been plenty respectful of your argument, however wrong it may be, yet it seems as if you’re completely ignoring ours and twisting New Waldensias words.

I'm not to blame if your excuses don't stand up to the slightest scrutiny, and I'm not to blame if claims that you're against it, particularly when they come from you, aren't exactly taken at face value. You haven't been respectful of my arguments: you've lied about the timing of your own racist behaviour to try and fit your "it's UCS" narrative, Viridus lied about whether there was any racist behaviour in the FCN Discord at all until he saw the evidence with his own eyes (and then promptly blocked me on Discord, by the way, very respectful of him), you bring up laws against punishing racism as if its an excuse to spew racist filth. I don't see an ounce of respect, I see lies, strawmen and bad-faith arguments.

Viridus wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:Based on the fact that the Founder was happy to use the n-word over 800 times on the FCN Discord, I doubt he'd want to overturn such a bill

"800 times"-"8oo times!"-"800 times!"-"800 TIMES!" Wow, for a server that's almost a year and a half old I'm very surprised that it's been said by him only 800 times seeming how you think this behavior was running rampant on there. Plus, knowing how almost all of that's spam or even exposing people for saying the word (lol) it really weakens your argument

Here's a fun fact: If he had to call out people for saying it over 800 times, that just proves my point that your region is insanely racist and fully deserving of a liberation. Not that that's even true, since we have screenshots of him and you using racial slurs outside of that context. You can keep trying though, if you'd like.

The Tri State Area and Maine wrote:

Prussian Polish Commonwealth wrote:Gee, it's not as if the region runs off of a democratic model and that the founder despite being executive, can't overturn a bill that was the will of the legislative body.

Dealing with OOC misconduct shouldn't require the legislative body. That isn't an issue that an IC legislature should have authority on.

A region's inefficient system isn't an excuse for allowing these kinds of things to happen.

Gagium wrote:Can we keep this debate on the subject? I don’t see how this allegation or joke or whatever it is relates to the bill as being discussed or the topic as being discussed.

You should have probably realize that the "allegation" he made, along with other similar events, is the reason that this liberation was even proposed.

“I doubt he’d want to overturn such a bill (Winky smiley)” Is not the reason that this liberation as proposed, nor is it on topic.

Would you please elaborate on your whole OOC/IC legislature argument, and how it relates to the bill? If you’d like, I can telegram you our regions constitution, which defines how our regional senate works. I’m not entirely sure of the point you’re making either, though the bill being discussed as related to the proposal prohibited “OOC or IC” punishment for this type of language.

Kavagrad wrote:

Viridus wrote:"800 times"-"8oo times!"-"800 times!"-"800 TIMES!" Wow, for a server that's almost a year and a half old I'm very surprised that it's been said by him only 800 times seeming how you think this behavior was running rampant on there. Plus, knowing how almost all of that's spam or even exposing people for saying the word (lol) it really weakens your argument

Here's a fun fact: If he had to call out people for saying it over 800 times, that just proves my point that your region is insanely racist and fully deserving of a liberation. Not that that's even true, since we have screenshots of him and you using racial slurs outside of that context. You can keep trying though, if you'd like.

Nah, the only other people to use the word for more than like 50 times are all banned from the FCN. Plus, you're evidence on me is really weak, I've only wrote the word on 8 occasions: quoting someone, and posting the lyrics to songs, lol

Kavagrad wrote:

Gagium wrote:We’ve already stated several times that we are against that sort of behavior, especially New Waldensia, and you yet still manage to be ignorant of our posts and continue to thrust whatever is going through your mind at us. I don’t understand how you derived your twisted version of New Waldensia being okay with this sort of behavior from what he said at all: He is simply stating that some of the users behind this behavior made it illegal for them to be punished for their actions in the region. As a democratic region, we abide by our laws. I believe that we’ve been plenty respectful of your argument, however wrong it may be, yet it seems as if you’re completely ignoring ours and twisting New Waldensias words.

I'm not to blame if your excuses don't stand up to the slightest scrutiny, and I'm not to blame if claims that you're against it, particularly when they come from you, aren't exactly taken at face value. You haven't been respectful of my arguments: you've lied about the timing of your own racist behaviour to try and fit your "it's UCS" narrative, Viridus lied about whether there was any racist behaviour in the FCN Discord at all until he saw the evidence with his own eyes (and then promptly blocked me on Discord, by the way, very respectful of him), you bring up laws against punishing racism as if its an excuse to spew racist filth. I don't see an ounce of respect, I see lies, strawmen and bad-faith arguments.

I haven’t pushed any “it’s UCS” narrative in relation to the behavior mentioned in the proposal; I have, however, mentioned, along with several other users,that some UCS members are likely involved in the proposal and in writing it, and several members shown in the several month-old evidence currently ARE residing in their region.

I could care less if Viridus blocked you on discord; Don’t try to use to say I am not being respectful. Saying anything that you don’t agree with is a lie would make me want to block you too. As I have repeatedly told you, this all is months old, and does not go on anymore. I already TOLD you that I am against this, and yet you’re accusing me of using the bill as an excuse to DEFEND it, when I already said that I am against it. Your argument seems to entirely be based upon the superstititon that I am lying about being against it, with no evidence or rational thought to back up your claim. If you’re going to continue to call our points “excuses” for something we repeatedly said we were against and for something there are no excuses for, then I’d wish to end the argument until you’re willing to at least respect my argument instead of simply dismissing my points as ‘lies’. Thank you

Gagium wrote:

Kavagrad wrote:I'm not to blame if your excuses don't stand up to the slightest scrutiny, and I'm not to blame if claims that you're against it, particularly when they come from you, aren't exactly taken at face value. You haven't been respectful of my arguments: you've lied about the timing of your own racist behaviour to try and fit your "it's UCS" narrative, Viridus lied about whether there was any racist behaviour in the FCN Discord at all until he saw the evidence with his own eyes (and then promptly blocked me on Discord, by the way, very respectful of him), you bring up laws against punishing racism as if its an excuse to spew racist filth. I don't see an ounce of respect, I see lies, strawmen and bad-faith arguments.

I haven’t pushed any “it’s UCS” narrative in relation to the behavior mentioned in the proposal; I have, however, mentioned, along with several other users,that some UCS members are likely involved in the proposal and in writing it, and several members shown in the several month-old evidence currently ARE residing in their region.

I could care less if Viridus blocked you on discord; Don’t try to use to say I am not being respectful. Saying anything that you don’t agree with is a lie would make me want to block you too. As I have repeatedly told you, this all is months old, and does not go on anymore. I already TOLD you that I am against this, and yet you’re accusing me of using the bill as an excuse to DEFEND it, when I already said that I am against it. Your argument seems to entirely be based upon the superstititon that I am lying about being against it, with no evidence or rational thought to back up your claim. If you’re going to continue to call our points “excuses” for something we repeatedly said we were against and for something there are no excuses for, then I’d wish to end the argument until you’re willing to at least respect my argument instead of simply dismissing my points as ‘lies’. Thank you

I didn't block him, he doesn't allow any DMs from people that aren't in the same servers as him, lol

Lol, can you lefties realize that your not the only ones on NS, and trying to offensively lib them is oly gonna make them stronger. Regarding the Discord allegations,in my option,so what,all my black-African American friends have said that word many times, and they have gotten that word said to them in front of my eyes and they don't care. The only ones who do are snowflake lefties. Although I did day nothing of the sort, because as a Jew I would prefer no one called me a 'kike'.

Gagium wrote:

The Tri State Area and Maine wrote:
Dealing with OOC misconduct shouldn't require the legislative body. That isn't an issue that an IC legislature should have authority on.

A region's inefficient system isn't an excuse for allowing these kinds of things to happen.



You should have probably realize that the "allegation" he made, along with other similar events, is the reason that this liberation was even proposed.

“I doubt he’d want to overturn such a bill (Winky smiley)” Is not the reason that this liberation as proposed, nor is it on topic.

I was talking about the first part, but point taken.

Gagium wrote:

The Tri State Area and Maine wrote:
Dealing with OOC misconduct shouldn't require the legislative body. That isn't an issue that an IC legislature should have authority on.

A region's inefficient system isn't an excuse for allowing these kinds of things to happen.

My point is that your Regional Senate shouldn't have the power to prohibit punishment for OOC behavior. Moderating a community and what is accepted shouldn't be based on the legislation passed for a browser game. There is a region that no other regional legislature that I can think of is able to define punishments for OOC behavior.

The Tri State Area and Maine wrote:

Gagium wrote:“I doubt he’d want to overturn such a bill (Winky smiley)” Is not the reason that this liberation as proposed, nor is it on topic.

I was talking about the first part, but point taken.

Gagium wrote:

My point is that your Regional Senate shouldn't have the power to prohibit punishment for OOC behavior. Moderating a community and what is accepted shouldn't be based on the legislation passed for a browser game. There is a region that no other regional legislature that I can think of is able to define punishments for OOC behavior.

Alright, I think I understand your point now, though you’d have to talk to our senators & senate speaker if you’d want to change that; I’m sure a majority of them would agree with this, myself included. This SC proposal, though it is incorrect on several levels, does bring up quite a few topics that relate to change in our region, as you and others have shown.

The system currently allows for bills to be passed regarding discord punishments and mandating a lack thereof; However, that is subject to change in the future.