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[DEFEATED/DISCARDED] Lib. Federation Of Conservative Nations

A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.

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Visionary Union
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 171
Founded: Sep 16, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Visionary Union » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:05 am

Armaros wrote:
Cedoria wrote:For the record, I agree. I think the Liberations recently have been deserved, and that this one is as well, but I do hope to see them used sparingly.

This. However, I think that in this case a condemnation will do. If the condemnation labels them as homophobic, fascist (or harbouring fascists) and more of that, I think many will be driven away and new players will hesitate to join. I'm not sure if a lib is needed here.

The problem is that those regions view condemnations as badges of honor, so merely condemning them is useless.

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Saranidia
Minister
 
Posts: 3397
Founded: Sep 14, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Saranidia » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:06 am

Saranidia supports this as the only defence against fascist, racist imperialism.

We will also send our troops against the region if they attack an Islamic ruled country .
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Armaros
Diplomat
 
Posts: 628
Founded: Apr 06, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Armaros » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:07 am

Caracasus wrote:Wow.

Yeah, that's horrific. Stuff I'm not going to repeat here - antisemitism, racism and fantasising about killing black people and jews feature very, very heavily. I guess the question is how much of this the founder was aware of and what steps they took to stop it.

according to the tg with the evidence I got, the founder was heavily involved themselves.
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Kavagrad
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1238
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:07 am

Caracasus wrote:Wow.

Yeah, that's horrific. Stuff I'm not going to repeat here - antisemitism, racism and fantasising about killing black people and jews feature very, very heavily. I guess the question is how much of this the founder was aware of and what steps they took to stop it.

Oh, the Founder was a part of it. If you recall the screenshot of a user showing off the 879 results that showed up when searching their own Discord messages for the N-word... that was Gagium.
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Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7918
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Caracasus » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:35 am

Kavagrad wrote:
Caracasus wrote:Wow.

Yeah, that's horrific. Stuff I'm not going to repeat here - antisemitism, racism and fantasising about killing black people and jews feature very, very heavily. I guess the question is how much of this the founder was aware of and what steps they took to stop it.

Oh, the Founder was a part of it. If you recall the screenshot of a user showing off the 879 results that showed up when searching their own Discord messages for the N-word... that was Gagium.


That is pretty damning to be honest. To be taking pride in that after (presumably) all that crap about dead jews and black people rather suggests that they were aware and in it up to their necks.
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Kuriko
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1317
Founded: Oct 31, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:15 am

After looking further at the evidence, I personally will not support this. However, I will point out that my vote is decided by the nations of 10ki and not myself. I will share the collective screenshot evidence with them on our forum and ask them for their opinions. I still maintain the stance that this is better handled with a regional blacklisting than an offensive liberation. What they said in those screenshots is horrible, detestable, and downright fucked up for lack of a better word. FCN, y'all need to stay away from the decent regions of NS.
Last edited by Kuriko on Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Crimsonfield
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 11
Founded: Feb 26, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Crimsonfield » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:37 am

Armaros wrote:
Crimsonfield wrote:Don't worry, if you have or after you see the evidence you should be certain it was deserved. The horrifying material they have on there is absolutely appalling. In fact, i am certain FCN is worse than KAISERREICH when it comes to the evidence. Another thing is that KAISERREICH did sometimes attempt to deny their actions and say they are Centrists, yet FCN seems to say they are right wing.... but not fascist. Don't be deceived, the evidence proves otherwise. Should anyone want to see it, i am also available. Preferably via TG.

Eh, wait a second. After I got the evidence, I got a tg from a native of FCN. They told me, that in fact, a number of the people in the evidence went over with you after you failed to stage a coup in FCN. These people include a self-proclaimed fascist, according to the native in question. After that, and another accusation against, this post of yours sounds a bit hypocritical.

By saying this i may be going off topic but i personally don't understand why they called it a "coup", anyway the massive problem with the FCN wasn't only that the Cabinet and President themselves were involved, but that they allowed all of this on their Discord for months and still do. Around 2 of those who did come to our new region, however said they would never post the same horrifying and appalling stuff ever again. We are profoundly anti-fascist, we even have an anti-fascist tag and we automatically delete any sort of racism, homophobia or fascist material on our discord. I'm sorry but there really is no comparison here. Those who came here had a fresh start and themselves wanted to escape the bigotry and racism in the FCN, see all the racism homophobia and vile remarks are and were so normalised on the FCN Discord it was unbearable for them. They may have made mistakes to try and fit in with the flow but our position on this is stern, one more remark like that and they are banned. I'm pretty sure literally seeing what you saw, what was posted on their discord would make you see the truth. What they may have said was nowhere near as terrible as what Gagium and his Cabinet have.

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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6548
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:32 am

Previous viewing of the evidence makes me generally okay with this.

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Kaboomlandia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7395
Founded: May 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaboomlandia » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:54 am

Opposed. This trend is getting ridiculous.
In=character, Kaboomlandia is a World Assembly member and abides by its resolutions. If this nation isn't in the WA, it's for practical reasons.
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Kavagrad
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1238
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:01 am

Kaboomlandia wrote:Opposed. This trend is getting ridiculous.

When a precedent like this is set, that a region guilty of certain behaviour behind closed doors should be treated in a certain way, then when similar or worse behaviour comes out from another region, they should be punished in the same way. Some of those who have seen the screenshots that form the basis of this proposal have stated on this very thread that these comments, made by FCN's members, are worse than those that came out of KReich. This is not a continuation down a slippery slope, or pushing a "trend" too far. This is a proposal that is fully justified based on the precedent set by previous SC resolutions.
Last edited by Kavagrad on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaboomlandia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7395
Founded: May 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaboomlandia » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:04 am

Kavagrad wrote:
Kaboomlandia wrote:Opposed. This trend is getting ridiculous.

When a precedent like this is set, that a region guilty of certain behaviour behind closed doors should be treated in a certain way, then when similar or worse behaviour comes out from another region, they should be punished in the same way. Some of those who have seen the screenshots that form the basis of this proposal have stated on this very thread that these comments, made by FCN's members, are worse than those that came out of KReich. This is not a continuation down a slippery slope, or pushing a "trend" too far. This is a proposal that is fully justified based on the precedent set by previous SC resolutions.

And when that precedent is a flawed one, are we still compelled to follow it? This just gives attention to the region and the founder isn’t going to get deleted over offsite logs.
In=character, Kaboomlandia is a World Assembly member and abides by its resolutions. If this nation isn't in the WA, it's for practical reasons.
Author of GA #371 and SC #208, #214, #226, #227, #230, #232
Co-Author of SC #204
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Tinhampton
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7985
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:09 am

https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=129264

It's interesting to see that, in spite of... yeah, let's just say "shit that happened offsite," Gagium and most high-ranking FCN members are still in favour of this Liberation.
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Malphe
Diplomat
 
Posts: 725
Founded: Jun 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Malphe » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:10 am

I'm not opposed to this kind of offensive liberation on principle but jeez, this is getting ridiculous.
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Kavagrad
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1238
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:10 am

Kaboomlandia wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:When a precedent like this is set, that a region guilty of certain behaviour behind closed doors should be treated in a certain way, then when similar or worse behaviour comes out from another region, they should be punished in the same way. Some of those who have seen the screenshots that form the basis of this proposal have stated on this very thread that these comments, made by FCN's members, are worse than those that came out of KReich. This is not a continuation down a slippery slope, or pushing a "trend" too far. This is a proposal that is fully justified based on the precedent set by previous SC resolutions.

And when that precedent is a flawed one, are we still compelled to follow it? This just gives attention to the region and the founder isn’t going to get deleted over offsite logs.

So we're to assume that you no longer back the KReich Liberation, which forms the precedent for this proposal in the first place?
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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Kaboomlandia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7395
Founded: May 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaboomlandia » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:11 am

Kavagrad wrote:
Kaboomlandia wrote:And when that precedent is a flawed one, are we still compelled to follow it? This just gives attention to the region and the founder isn’t going to get deleted over offsite logs.

So we're to assume that you no longer back the KReich Liberation, which forms the precedent for this proposal in the first place?

That post was made before I realized how stupid this trend got.
Last edited by Kaboomlandia on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
In=character, Kaboomlandia is a World Assembly member and abides by its resolutions. If this nation isn't in the WA, it's for practical reasons.
Author of GA #371 and SC #208, #214, #226, #227, #230, #232
Co-Author of SC #204
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

"Your legitimacy, Kaboom, has melted away in my eyes. I couldn't have believed that only a shadow of your once brilliant WA career remains."

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Paleocon States of America
Attaché
 
Posts: 88
Founded: Sep 07, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Paleocon States of America » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:12 am

Kuriko wrote:I'm not the author, nor involved in this resolution, but it seems likely to reach queue so I'm making a thread.

Nominee (region): Federation of Conservative Nations

Proposed by: Sonoraland

The World Assembly,

Clarifying the Federation of Conservative Nations is not Founderless as of now;

Horrified at the Region's tolerance and presence of blatantly racist and homophobic material behind closed doors;

Appalled that they portray themselves as "Conservative" so as to conceal their true identity;

Noting the Region has assisted KAISERREICH, Liberated by SC #245 in Military Operations such as on The Commie Confederacy and others;

Also Noting KAISERREICH's Army, notorious for it's own attempts to enforce their Fascist ideology on other regions, has joined the Army of Freedom, the raiding force of the FCN;

Abhorred by their attempts to eliminate ideologies they disagree with using raids;

Believing a Liberation would leave the region open to invasion after the Founder is gone;

Certain that this Liberation will warn other regions which portray themselves as "Conservative" when in reality embrace fascist ideals and accept these views within their hallowed halls.

Hereby Liberates Federation of Conservative Nations

I did not know this, I have relocated to North America.
I do not support racism, homophobia, or fascism.
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Kavagrad
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1238
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:12 am

Tinhampton wrote:https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=129264

It's interesting to see that, in spite of... yeah, let's just say "shit that happened offsite," Gagium and most high-ranking FCN members are still in favour of this Liberation.

Funnily enough, that wasn't the case at first. When Viridus realised that they weren't able to come up with a valid excuse for their behaviour, that's when the "we totally wanted this" shtick began.
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
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Kavagrad
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1238
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:13 am

Kaboomlandia wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:So we're to assume that you no longer back the KReich Liberation, which forms the precedent for this proposal in the first place?

I never did support that lib, as shown by the very post you linked.

The post I linked showed you opposing the Repeal of the KReich Lib, showing exactly what I'm trying to prove. So...?
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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The Free Islands of Independence
Envoy
 
Posts: 256
Founded: Oct 01, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby The Free Islands of Independence » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:02 pm

How would this resolution open them up to invasion? Their WA delegate is not executive and the founder is probably going to be more vigilant now to avoid CTEing.
No NS stats please.
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Gagium
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1462
Founded: Apr 08, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Gagium » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:09 pm

This is evidently a revenge proposal orchestrated by the UCS’ cabinet and their allies in other regions to get back at my region for banjecting them and exposing their DDoS attacks. It seems as if they aren’t stopping at doxxing me and causing stress to me and my family in real life, so they are attempting to make our time on this site miserable by getting us blacklisted from the NS community in an attempt that I hope won’t work.

The screenshots in question are from last spring: Since then, the activity shown as halted completely and some of the members shown have been since banned from the region. The screenshots being sent as evidence happen to be the ones that I was sent months ago by Crimsonfield himself in an attempt to get me to support a regional bill. Since then, as I stated before, the user encouraging this type of activity has been banned, and we are against that sort of behavior. This is merely an attempt to blacklist our region from the community.

I find it absurd how the bill in question calls us fascist. The only openly fascist person in the FCN within the last month has been banned. Our army is literally called the ‘Army of Freedom’. Most of our members identify as libertarian or conservative. This claim is purely absurd.

TG me if you have any questions. Don’t TG me if you plan on ignoring the points I just made.
E

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Gagium
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1462
Founded: Apr 08, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Gagium » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:13 pm

Tinhampton wrote:https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=129264

It's interesting to see that, in spite of... yeah, let's just say "shit that happened offsite," Gagium and most high-ranking FCN members are still in favour of this Liberation.

Hey, you can’t blame us for poking fun at this far-fetched proposal. It’s a game after all.
E

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New Waldensia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 416
Founded: Feb 18, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby New Waldensia » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:26 pm

I can provide screenshots PROVING that the FCN government took action to prevent this sort of behavior back in April. Offending members were punished, and in a rage they responded by passing a constitutional amendment that undid the punishments and made it so that we could not punish speech like that in the future. Those same members are no longer in our region, and (as mentioned previously) formed their own region -- of which one of their officers has been commenting in this thread.

TG me and I'll send you the proof.
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Quebecshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 205
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Democratic Socialists

This "Liberation"

Postby Quebecshire » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:31 pm

Considering the LCN went through something similar back in June (yes, I am very aware we had a Condemnation directed to us, not a Liberation, but the context is similar and we were actually threatened with a Liberation by the same group trying to condemn us), I am sympathetic to the FCN in this manner. I will address a few parts of the resolution, I have only been involved in this to some extent, so if I am mistaken in any way or lack further insight, please do not hesitate to reply or open discussion with me. I will mainly be replying to the parts about the nature of the FCN, as I do not know a ton about their specific foreign policy actions at this point in time.

Horrified at the Region's tolerance and presence of blatantly racist and homophobic material behind closed doors; - I REALLY need to see some evidence of this. For example, in the LCN, lots of jokes that could be considered that occur, but it's not censored unless it gets out of hand. Like, we have racial minorities that joke about their own background and such, but if someone were to actually be harassing or degrading an LCNer (or someone around the community) in a malicious way it would be dealt with. I need this proven to me that it is actually a serious and non-joking problem for me to buy into this in the slightest.

Appalled that they portray themselves as "Conservative" so as to conceal their true identity; - This is essentially just a re-wording of the exact same rhetoric thrown at my region back in June.

Abhorred by their attempts to eliminate ideologies they disagree with using raids; - So do like, a ton of regions. Not saying I don't have a problem with it, but I'd need to see evidence as to why their doings are somehow negatively impacting the NS community for me to support this.

Certain that this Liberation will warn other regions which portray themselves as "Conservative" when in reality embrace fascist ideals and accept these views within their hallowed halls. - Alright, first off, similar rhetoric to that thrown at the LCN back in June again (which really makes me think that Crimsonfield had a hand in writing this since he was the one who published the one to Condemn the LCN, but moving on), but referring to my first point, I need to see evidence that this is a legitimate issue occurring.

I don't support a good bit of what the FCN does outside of its borders, but unless some more evidence is provided, as far as I'm concerned, this is utterly pathetic trash that has no place on the WASC floor if the Security Council wants to remain a respected institution.
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Kavagrad
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1238
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Gagium wrote:This is evidently a revenge proposal orchestrated by the UCS’ cabinet and their allies in other regions to get back at my region for banjecting them and exposing their DDoS attacks. It seems as if they aren’t stopping at doxxing me and causing stress to me and my family in real life, so they are attempting to make our time on this site miserable by getting us blacklisted from the NS community in an attempt that I hope won’t work.

I don't particularly care why you were exposed for this behaviour. What matters is that the behaviour came to light, and there needs to be consequences. You don't get to play the victim, I'm afraid.
Gagium wrote:The screenshots in question are from last spring

Many of them are from this summer, actually, but let's move swiftly on from that lie.
Gagium wrote:Since then, the activity shown as halted completely and some of the members shown have been since banned from the region.

Sure, some of them have. Your Senate Speaker hasn't. You haven't. And yet you were both responsible for a significant amount of this behaviour. This is deflection, plain and simple.
Gagium wrote:Since then, as I stated before, the user encouraging this type of activity has been banned, and we are against that sort of behavior.

Funny how someone who used the n-word over 800 times on their own Discord server can suddenly be against "that sort of behavior".
Gagium wrote:This is merely an attempt to blacklist our region from the community.

As you deserve.
Gagium wrote:I find it absurd how the bill in question calls us fascist. The only openly fascist person in the FCN within the last month has been banned. Our army is literally called the ‘Army of Freedom’.

And North Korea is a "Democratic People's Republic". Maybe you should focus more on rooting out the open racists and closeted fascists from you region, rather than playing with your little R/D army.
Gagium wrote:Most of our members identify as libertarian or conservative. This claim is purely absurd.

And given all the evidence, forgive me for not trusting what your members have to say at face value.
Quebecshire wrote:Horrified at the Region's tolerance and presence of blatantly racist and homophobic material behind closed doors; - I REALLY need to see some evidence of this. For example, in the LCN, lots of jokes that could be considered that occur, but it's not censored unless it gets out of hand. Like, we have racial minorities that joke about their own background and such, but if someone were to actually be harassing or degrading an LCNer (or someone around the community) in a malicious way it would be dealt with. I need this proven to me that it is actually a serious and non-joking problem for me to buy into this in the slightest.

Lemme throw you a quick TG.
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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Kavagrad
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1238
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:39 pm

New Waldensia wrote:I can provide screenshots PROVING that the FCN government took action to prevent this sort of behavior back in April. Offending members were punished, and in a rage they responded by passing a constitutional amendment that undid the punishments and made it so that we could not punish speech like that in the future. Those same members are no longer in our region, and (as mentioned previously) formed their own region -- of which one of their officers has been commenting in this thread.

TG me and I'll send you the proof.

So when your own Founder was continuing with this behaviour in June... how exactly do you want to explain that?
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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