[DEFEATED/DISCARDED] Lib. Federation Of Conservative Nations

[Kavagrad]

Sorry for the mix-up, I'm tired.

It's not that bad, they tried to do this with the LCN as well (not a liberation, a condemnation but pretty much the same grounds as this)

Woah there, now, what's this talk? Who's "they"? We don't even know who wrote this, and as far as I'm aware, the main proponents for the bill on this thread weren't involved in the condemnation bill against LCN. Also, as far as I'm aware, LCN was not the toxic cesspool that FCN is, unless you have evidence to prove that they were? Otherwise, that's just another false equivalency.

[Quebecshire]

It's not that bad, they tried to do this with the LCN as well (not a liberation, a condemnation but pretty much the same grounds as this)

I don't think anyone had evidence of the LCN being racist or homophobic (and pretty much nobody supported that resolution.)

I mean people joke around with that stuff in the LCN. Not as bad as the FCN, but it's similar and this doesn't warrant a Liberation for them.

Last time someone used the n word on the server last I checked was a black guy using it though.

[Viridus]

It's not that bad, they tried to do this with the LCN as well (not a liberation, a condemnation but pretty much the same grounds as this)

Woah there, now, what's this talk? Who's "they"? We don't even know who wrote this, and as far as I'm aware, the main proponents for the bill on this thread weren't involved in the condemnation bill against LCN. Also, as far as I'm aware, LCN was not the toxic cesspool that FCN is, unless you have evidence to prove that they were? Otherwise, that's just another false equivalency.

Whoa there, now, no reason to get upset. "Who's they?" Well, someone wrote it... "they" wrote it. It's just a way to say someone did something... "Toxic cesspool" you certainly do like to use that term a lot, too bad it's very inaccurate though

[Kavagrad]

Woah there, now, what's this talk? Who's "they"? We don't even know who wrote this, and as far as I'm aware, the main proponents for the bill on this thread weren't involved in the condemnation bill against LCN. Also, as far as I'm aware, LCN was not the toxic cesspool that FCN is, unless you have evidence to prove that they were? Otherwise, that's just another false equivalency.

Whoa there, now, no reason to get upset. "Who's they?" Well, someone wrote it... "they" wrote it. It's just a way to say someone did something... "Toxic cesspool" you certainly do like to use that term a lot, too bad it's very inaccurate though

You say "they" as if whoever wrote Liberate FCN is also responsible for Condemn LCN, as if that makes these two proposals were equivalent in some way, when they are not.

Also, pretty sure that's the first time I've used the phrase "toxic cesspool" on this thread. But please, carry on.

Whoa there, now, no reason to get upset.

It's nice that you're attempting this, by the way. Just proves that you can't compete on the facts.

[Viridus]

Whoa there, now, no reason to get upset. "Who's they?" Well, someone wrote it... "they" wrote it. It's just a way to say someone did something... "Toxic cesspool" you certainly do like to use that term a lot, too bad it's very inaccurate though

You say "they" as if whoever wrote Liberate FCN is also responsible for Condemn LCN, as if that makes these two proposals were equivalent in some way, when they are not.

Also, pretty sure that's the first time I've used the phrase "toxic cesspool" on this thread. But please, carry on.

Whoa there, now, no reason to get upset.

It's nice that you're attempting this, by the way. Just proves that you can't compete on the facts.

Aww... I thought you would talk about my main point, that the term "toxic cesspool" is very inaccurate. Oh well, just proves that you can't compete on the facts.

[Kavagrad]

You say "they" as if whoever wrote Liberate FCN is also responsible for Condemn LCN, as if that makes these two proposals were equivalent in some way, when they are not.

Also, pretty sure that's the first time I've used the phrase "toxic cesspool" on this thread. But please, carry on.


It's nice that you're attempting this, by the way. Just proves that you can't compete on the facts.

Aww... I thought you would talk about my main point, that the term "toxic cesspool" is very inaccurate. Oh well, just proves that you can't compete on the facts.

Aww... I thought you would talk about my main point, that your comparison of the FCN and LCN bills is a false equivalency.

We can go back and forth on this for a while, to be quite honest.

[Viridus]

Aww... I thought you would talk about my main point, that the term "toxic cesspool" is very inaccurate. Oh well, just proves that you can't compete on the facts.

Aww... I thought you would talk about my main point, that your comparison of the FCN and LCN bills is a false equivalency.

We can go back and forth on this for a while, to be quite honest.

I mean, alright, it's just not going to help your argument though...

[Quebecshire]

Aww... I thought you would talk about my main point, that the term "toxic cesspool" is very inaccurate. Oh well, just proves that you can't compete on the facts.

Aww... I thought you would talk about my main point, that your comparison of the FCN and LCN bills is a false equivalency.

We can go back and forth on this for a while, to be quite honest.

It is and it isn't. There are a lot of contextual similarities but they are different in some respects.

Both resolutions are made from rather lazy rhetoric about both regions that have been hyped up to serve the interests of the authors, who are (likely so) from the same group of people with very similar motivations.

LCN Bill: Made by people led by individuals who had been expelled by the LCN for lawful reasons, seeking a vendetta. Specific instances are cherrypicked and twisted to make the LCN appear like a dystopia worth condemning.

FCN Bill: (Likely) made by people led by individuals who had been expelled by the FCN for lawful reasons, seeking a vendetta. Specific comments are cherrypicked and twisted to make the FCN appear like a dystopia worth liberating.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Against, this region doesn't deserve to be liberated just because of offensive old posts that have mostly been cleaned up.

[Dileb]

Can we all see the evidence? Unlike the COD, KR or NE where they handily admitted that they were fascists and anyone who cared to could check out their RMB/Telegram spam etc confirming this, this isn't a region that either seems to actively promote fascism on their WFE or elsewhere.

I'd really, really like offensive liberations to be confined to fascist regions - so I think there's a need to see some pretty damning evidence that they're fascists or at the very least have a lot of fascist types running unchecked by higher ups in their region to say whether or not they're fascists or providing a safe space for fascists.

I don't believe that I can post links to the screenshots here, but I'll TG you what I have. I'm happy to give the same evidence to anybody else who hasn't yet seen it, upon request.

Hey, I was wondering if you could tg me the evidence

[Cedoria]

This entire thing is great and all, but with the repeated attacks against only Right-winged areas you would begin to doubt that the WA is neutral in political opinions. I respect that the Security council is doing something, but I also fear that these actions may be trying to shun out the Right, creating a left majority that cane easily impose more rules that fit a left agenda. Hereby I vote no in order to keep political peace and stabilize the fronts. Unless Communist are brought to the table in the next vote I will continue to question the goals of the current security council.

Find a Communist region responsible for similar things, and I might even support it.

But I suspect you won't, because, shock horror, I don't know any of us who behave this way.

There's a reason Communist regions aren't getting libs, and it's not because the WA is majority Communist (it isn't).

[Cedoria]

Are these ethnic groups being harmed? Have you seen a single black person, or Jew, or gay man offended by these actions to the point where it needs to be brought to the Fucking World Assembly Security Council? Are you insane?

Agreed. Regardless of edgy jokes in poor taste, nothing or no one seems to be suffering, except the egos of the people who wrote this resolution

Says the one with the Iron Cross on his flag, I presume you're a great judge of knowing whose offended by FCN's actions and who isn't.

Regardless of the result, I hope that FCN does reform, and would be open to revising my support in future if a thorough cleanup is made. I am very, very skeptical, as I must confess I don't know the people involved and have no reason to suspect their bona fides, but if they prove it, then as far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. If this Resolution wakes them up that serious changes are needed, then that's good.

But I'm not holding my breath.

[Cedoria]

Tell me about it, when the only defense of your ideology is that it's a joke, it's a really bad ideology.

Or maybe they don't actually believe in that ideology?

Then they would have said that. But not even FCN's defenders have made that claim.

If you don't believe in Fascism, most people are smart enough not to pretend they do. If you aren't, then that's on you.

[Cedoria]

Your regionmates said gay people should be sent to the gas chamber, and your founder casually chatted with them like it was no big deal. If I had access, I would be gathering all those message IDs and sending them to the Discord Trust & Safety team. In fact, anybody who does have access should do that: https://support.discordapp.com/hc/en-us ... ust-Safety

Anyone believing the sob story about how this region is changing needs to reassess their relationships. The screenshots floating around were barely 3.5 months old.

A lot has happened in FCN since them. I'd give New Wald a chance, because he just talked to me about repealing a law enacted by the far-right (now gone, for the most part) elements which established ridiculously widespread "free speech" protections. It looks like FCN is handling this seriously and professionally.

But yes, the posts in question should be reported.

Also, Quebecshire isn't in FCN. He's in the League of Conservative Nations, or LCN. Totally different regions.

Difference is you believe New Wald. I don't, at least not at this point. I hope you are right, but i'm not willing to stake a Resolution on that hope.


Now if this thing passed (admittedly looking unlikely), and then Wald did thoroughly reform and drive out all remaining obnoxious elements, which would include the Founder who participated in them, then I might be inclined to say we should revisit this.

So far, there is no evidence of this occurring.

[Cedoria]

Huh. What's this, then? A poll asking FCN members if they want a liberation? Gagium voting in favour? Viridus voting in favour? New Waldensia voting in favour? A plurality of the region voting in favour?

You're embarrassing yourself.

And you're embarrassing yourself by supporting this resolution. It's disgusting to see someone like you support a resolution to liberate a region which was allegedly being racist and not persecuting it's people in any way.

It's not alleged. There is very strong and conclusive evidence, unrefuted by any member of FCN.

Nothing alleged about it. Proven, guilty as charged. Done.

This embarrassing attempt at a counter-point needs to be treated for the nonsense it is.

[Spode Humbled Minions]

Agreed. Regardless of edgy jokes in poor taste, nothing or no one seems to be suffering, except the egos of the people who wrote this resolution

Says the one with the Iron Cross on his flag, I presume you're a great judge of knowing whose offended by FCN's actions and who isn't.

Regardless of the result, I hope that FCN does reform, and would be open to revising my support in future if a thorough cleanup is made. I am very, very skeptical, as I must confess I don't know the people involved and have no reason to suspect their bona fides, but if they prove it, then as far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. If this Resolution wakes them up that serious changes are needed, then that's good.

But I'm not holding my breath.

That's his flag because he's Germany in the LCN RP/ Anyhow...
So what would a clean up effort even entail? In your mind?

[Quebecshire]

Agreed. Regardless of edgy jokes in poor taste, nothing or no one seems to be suffering, except the egos of the people who wrote this resolution

Says the one with the Iron Cross on his flag, I presume you're a great judge of knowing whose offended by FCN's actions and who isn't.

Regardless of the result, I hope that FCN does reform, and would be open to revising my support in future if a thorough cleanup is made. I am very, very skeptical, as I must confess I don't know the people involved and have no reason to suspect their bona fides, but if they prove it, then as far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. If this Resolution wakes them up that serious changes are needed, then that's good.

But I'm not holding my breath.

The Iron Cross flag as nothing to do with his views, it's because he is Germany in a regional RP. The last time he RPed as his nation he flag resembled that of England.

Talk about a poor argument and the most laughable thing I've read today.

[Quebecshire]

This entire thing is great and all, but with the repeated attacks against only Right-winged areas you would begin to doubt that the WA is neutral in political opinions. I respect that the Security council is doing something, but I also fear that these actions may be trying to shun out the Right, creating a left majority that cane easily impose more rules that fit a left agenda. Hereby I vote no in order to keep political peace and stabilize the fronts. Unless Communist are brought to the table in the next vote I will continue to question the goals of the current security council.

Find a Communist region responsible for similar things, and I might even support it.

But I suspect you won't, because, shock horror, I don't know any of us who behave this way.

There's a reason Communist regions aren't getting libs, and it's not because the WA is majority Communist (it isn't).

The WA did elect a communist Secretary General, so even if a majority isn't, you'd be lying to say its not an influential group in the WA.

[Quebecshire]

And you're embarrassing yourself by supporting this resolution. It's disgusting to see someone like you support a resolution to liberate a region which was allegedly being racist and not persecuting it's people in any way.

It's not alleged. There is very strong and conclusive evidence, unrefuted by any member of FCN.

Nothing alleged about it. Proven, guilty as charged. Done.

This embarrassing attempt at a counter-point needs to be treated for the nonsense it is.

The only thing they've been proven guilty of is defending their region against hostiles and offending some people who aren't even involved in their community.

[Cedoria]

Says the one with the Iron Cross on his flag, I presume you're a great judge of knowing whose offended by FCN's actions and who isn't.

Regardless of the result, I hope that FCN does reform, and would be open to revising my support in future if a thorough cleanup is made. I am very, very skeptical, as I must confess I don't know the people involved and have no reason to suspect their bona fides, but if they prove it, then as far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. If this Resolution wakes them up that serious changes are needed, then that's good.

But I'm not holding my breath.

That's his flag because he's Germany in the LCN RP/ Anyhow...
So what would a clean up effort even entail? In your mind?

Taking responsibility for the content, removal of those who remain in FCN were responsible, a public commitment to police such content in future, and a period of verifiable time where that pledge was kept.

If I saw all that, i'd be inclined to alter my vote on this thing. So far none of them have happened.

[Cedoria]

Find a Communist region responsible for similar things, and I might even support it.

But I suspect you won't, because, shock horror, I don't know any of us who behave this way.

There's a reason Communist regions aren't getting libs, and it's not because the WA is majority Communist (it isn't).

The WA did elect a communist Secretary General, so even if a majority isn't, you'd be lying to say its not an influential group in the WA.

Which is why I didn't lie by claiming that we aren't. If you're going to say I'm lying, at least make sure you quote what I actually said.

[Cedoria]

It's not alleged. There is very strong and conclusive evidence, unrefuted by any member of FCN.

Nothing alleged about it. Proven, guilty as charged. Done.

This embarrassing attempt at a counter-point needs to be treated for the nonsense it is.

The only thing they've been proven guilty of is defending their region against hostiles and offending some people who aren't even involved in their community.

And many of those involved in this 'defence' are responsible for the same offences.

If the content in question only offended people outside FCN, then that only proves the need for the Liberation even more, because clearly nobody in FCN had either the ethical framework or moral courage to stamp out this behavior. This point is one in favour of liberation, not against it.

[The Tri State Area and Maine]

Find a Communist region responsible for similar things, and I might even support it.

But I suspect you won't, because, shock horror, I don't know any of us who behave this way.

There's a reason Communist regions aren't getting libs, and it's not because the WA is majority Communist (it isn't).

The WA did elect a communist Secretary General, so even if a majority isn't, you'd be lying to say its not an influential group in the WA.

The WA Secretariat just determines what proposals are legal and illegal. I don't see what that has to do with communism.

It's not alleged. There is very strong and conclusive evidence, unrefuted by any member of FCN.

Nothing alleged about it. Proven, guilty as charged. Done.

This embarrassing attempt at a counter-point needs to be treated for the nonsense it is.

The only thing they've been proven guilty of is defending their region against hostiles and offending some people who aren't even involved in their community.

They are part of the NS community, are they not?

[Quebecshire]

The WA did elect a communist Secretary General, so even if a majority isn't, you'd be lying to say its not an influential group in the WA.

The WA Secretariat just determines what proposals are legal and illegal. I don't see what that has to do with communism.

The only thing they've been proven guilty of is defending their region against hostiles and offending some people who aren't even involved in their community.

They are part of the NS community, are they not?

The Secretary-General of the World Assembly was elected on the campaign of "Full Communism For NationStates"?

And yes, but this seems rather isolated into their region.

[The Tri State Area and Maine]

The WA Secretariat just determines what proposals are legal and illegal. I don't see what that has to do with communism.



They are part of the NS community, are they not?

The Secretary-General of the World Assembly was elected on the campaign of "Full Communism For NationStates"?

And yes, but this seems rather isolated into their region.

I wasn't paying attention to the WA Secretariat election, but that was a probably a meme. Besides, communist or not, they have no effect on the outcome of WA votes, they just decide whether a proposal is legal or illegal according to WA rules.

That applies to most instances of these types of things happening, though. Regardless, it would be good to show that we don't approve of this region's actions as a community (the Security Council isn't the way to do it, but there are other ways to act.)