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Gagium
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Posts: 1351
Founded: Apr 08, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Gagium » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:25 pm

Kavagrad wrote:
Turghan wrote: I would agree with that. After all, I seriously doubt that FCN would have let me join and much less stay since it's well known that I am Jewish. The Anti-Semitism claims are a joke and it's a joke I don't think is funny. As for the other issues, I cannot say anything as I was not a part of FCN at that time. So until I see Anti-Semitism among FCN members, I will remain. I still see this "Liberation" crap as some psycho's cry for serious therapy.


So you're saying that if there were evidence of anti-semitic behaviour from FCN's members, you would change your mind? 'Cause funnily enough, I have something you might want to see...

Is it from a user that is no longer in the FCN?

Nevertheless, let’s try to stay on topic.
E

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Turghan
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Sep 15, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Turghan » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:27 pm

Lalop wrote:
Turghan wrote: I would agree with that. After all, I seriously doubt that FCN would have let me join and much less stay since it's well known that I am Jewish. The Anti-Semitism claims are a joke and it's a joke I don't think is funny. As for the other issues, I cannot say anything as I was not a part of FCN at that time. So until I see Anti-Semitism among FCN members, I will remain. I still see this "Liberation" crap as some psycho's cry for serious therapy.

Nice! First other jew that I've met on NS! Conservative, Orthodox or Reform? 'I'm conservative' I have also seen no anti semitism in the FCN,but if there is 'which I doubt' plz show me because then I might switch regions.

I am Reform.

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Cedoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6041
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:29 pm

Lalop wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
No. It doesn't, because it only covers actions taken by your government. If you are a US citizen, you might want to learn a bit more about how it works before you cite it in an argument against someone who knows a fair bit more about it.

If it was the US Senate. It is not, however, and most of the world does not have the same standards for a number of good reasons, therefore the argument is invalid.

Again,I was hypothetically putting this in context,I did not mean it literally.

But it's not a hypothetical. It's an irrelevance. Your claim was that we should care about First Amendment rights. As you've been very clearly told, from multiple persons on both sides of this debate, we don't, and shouldn't.

Arguing from a dreamworld where the First Amendment matters on NS is not going to change the fact that in this particular case in the real woorld, it still doesn't.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
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Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

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Lalop
Attaché
 
Posts: 82
Founded: Sep 08, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Lalop » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:32 pm

Turghan wrote:
Lalop wrote:Nice! First other jew that I've met on NS! Conservative, Orthodox or Reform? 'I'm conservative' I have also seen no anti semitism in the FCN,but if there is 'which I doubt' plz show me because then I might switch regions.

I am Reform.

Nice! Did you go to Simchat Torah? Rip this is kinda off topic lets move this to tg's..

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Neuewland
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 50
Founded: May 07, 2017
Corporate Police State

Postby Neuewland » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:32 pm

Could someone send me the evidence?
Neuewland wrote this

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Kavagrad
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Posts: 1035
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:33 pm

Gagium wrote:Nevertheless, let’s try to stay on topic.

Exactly what I was doing, thank you very much :)
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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Lalop
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Posts: 82
Founded: Sep 08, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Wow,in shock

Postby Lalop » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:35 pm

Reading through Kavagrads evidence. I'm in shock. They might have been right. Gaigum,please explain why you did not take action against the poster?!!!!!!!

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New Waldensia
Envoy
 
Posts: 350
Founded: Feb 18, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby New Waldensia » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:45 pm

Lalop wrote:Reading through Kavagrads evidence. I'm in shock. They might have been right. Gaigum,please explain why you did not take action against the poster?!!!!!!!

We did. See the telegram I sent you.
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Gagium
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Founded: Apr 08, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Gagium » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:45 pm

Lalop wrote:Reading through Kavagrads evidence. I'm in shock. They might have been right. Gaigum,please explain why you did not take action against the poster?!!!!!!!

Ah, so the evidence is of someone who’s since been banned from the FCN and who has been banned for awhile now?

No wonder.
E

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Reploid Productions
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Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Reploid Productions » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:47 pm

Lalop wrote:I don't know what I expected from someone who most likely spending all their time on the internet and probably on welfare,but this is ridiculous!
<snip>
Its a funny thing called the first amendment

The bolded is clearly an OOC attack on the poster. That is flaming, and is in violation of the site rules. Attack the argument, NOT the person.

As for the first amendment, please review the site FAQ, notably:
It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?

Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.


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Kavagrad
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Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:49 pm

Gagium wrote:
Lalop wrote:Reading through Kavagrads evidence. I'm in shock. They might have been right. Gaigum,please explain why you did not take action against the poster?!!!!!!!

Ah, so the evidence is of someone who’s since been banned from the FCN and who has been banned for awhile now?

No wonder.

And was around for at least a month after their anti-semitic and racist comments on your Discord, but please, carry on.

Also, thought you couldn't ban people from you region for those comments, so obviously they weren't banned for that behaviour, so I don't see how any of that was relevant.
Last edited by Kavagrad on Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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Gagium
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Posts: 1351
Founded: Apr 08, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Gagium » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:50 pm

Anyways, these images were sent to be as early as July 20. Action has been taken since then, which was over 2 months ago. Like I said, I regret saying what I said, though around a half of the evidence is of someone who’s been banned from the FCN. The liberation for something that has been halted entirely is absurd, and the other points of the liberation don’t add up. The fact that these images were withheld for months, and only timely released now after certain instances occurred, is something we should all be wondering about.

If anyone wants evidence that these images were taken and sent on July 20, send me a telegram.
E

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Gagium
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Posts: 1351
Founded: Apr 08, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Gagium » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:51 pm

Kavagrad wrote:
Gagium wrote:Ah, so the evidence is of someone who’s since been banned from the FCN and who has been banned for awhile now?

No wonder.

And was around for at least a month after their anti-semitic and racist comments on your Discord, but please, carry on.

If I’m correct, the user ‘left’ the region within a week of June 25. I would be happy to supply you with evidence of such, though this claim is completely false.
E

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Kavagrad
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Posts: 1035
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:52 pm

Gagium wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:And was around for at least a month after their anti-semitic and racist comments on your Discord, but please, carry on.

If I’m correct, the user ‘left’ the region within a week of June 25. I would be happy to supply you with evidence of such, though this claim is completely false.

The comment I referred to actually took place on May 25th, ain't that fun?
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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Gagium
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Posts: 1351
Founded: Apr 08, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Gagium » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:55 pm

Kavagrad wrote:
Gagium wrote:If I’m correct, the user ‘left’ the region within a week of June 25. I would be happy to supply you with evidence of such, though this claim is completely false.

The comment I referred to actually took place on May 25th, ain't that fun?

Aw, you got me! You got me good! :shock:
E

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Cedoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6041
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:57 pm

Gagium wrote:Anyways, these images were sent to be as early as July 20. Action has been taken since then, which was over 2 months ago. Like I said, I regret saying what I said, though around a half of the evidence is of someone who’s been banned from the FCN. The liberation for something that has been halted entirely is absurd, and the other points of the liberation don’t add up. The fact that these images were withheld for months, and only timely released now after certain instances occurred, is something we should all be wondering about.

If anyone wants evidence that these images were taken and sent on July 20, send me a telegram.



If it's suspicious that it's only been used now, then surely it is equally suspicious as to why your region condoned the comments for so long before anybody involved in them actually left the region (that's before we get into the fact that some of them still haven't, yourself among them)? Or is an apparent delay in action only suspicious when FCN needs to use the fact to make an opportunist case for why they should avoid a thoroughly deserved liberation?

To put it bluntly, the mere fact that this stuff was even said and not jumped on immediately proves at best apathy, and at worst outright complicity by the leadership of FCN. Nothing you've said in your own defence would change any of that, even if it were all true (which it isn't.)
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.



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Kavagrad
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Posts: 1035
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:01 pm

Gagium wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:The comment I referred to actually took place on May 25th, ain't that fun?

Aw, you got me! You got me good! :shock:

Oh, it's not fun when you're not trying! I shouldn't find it this easy to know more about these comments than the guy who provided a good chunk of the source material. :P
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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Gagium
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Posts: 1351
Founded: Apr 08, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Gagium » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:09 pm

Kavagrad wrote:
Gagium wrote:Aw, you got me! You got me good! :shock:

Oh, it's not fun when you're not trying! I shouldn't find it this easy to know more about these comments than the guy who provided a good chunk of the source material. :P

With knowing that one of the screenshots are from May though..correct me if I’m wrong, but May is in the spring?
E

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Kavagrad
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Posts: 1035
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:14 pm

Gagium wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:Oh, it's not fun when you're not trying! I shouldn't find it this easy to know more about these comments than the guy who provided a good chunk of the source material. :P

With knowing that one of the screenshots are from May though..correct me if I’m wrong, but May is in the spring?

Indeed it is, and you'll notice that I never said that they all came from the summer. Just pointed out that some did.

Also, I tend to work with the meteorological calendar, so I had summer starting on the 1st of June, not the 21st, as is the case with the astronomical calendar, which I am assuming you subscribe to. Happy to clear that up.
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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Fauxia
Senator
 
Posts: 4030
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fauxia » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:15 pm

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Kavagrad
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Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:24 pm

Jumping back a second, if I may, Gagium has stated that the only open Fascist in FCN has been gone for a long time.

Irou 3 seems pretty open.

All I'm saying is, before you make those broad statements, have a quick check.
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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Gagium
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1351
Founded: Apr 08, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Gagium » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:33 pm

Kavagrad wrote:Jumping back a second, if I may, Gagium has stated that the only open Fascist in FCN has been gone for a long time.

Irou 3 seems pretty open.

All I'm saying is, before you make those broad statements, have a quick check.

They have the whole Fascist Doctrine copy pasted as a dispatch..?

I don’t recall him ever openly expressing that he was a fascist on the RMB (And I don’t believe he’s on our discord), but that is certainly an interesting find.

As such, I’m sure the lot of us disagree with fascism, but the FCN does allow fascists. I personally disagree with fascism as it is a form of socialism and authoritarianism, though we are tolerant of fascists, so long as they aren’t national socialists.

Of course, one openly fascist person, who is not active in the FCN nor is in our discord, isn’t grounds upon which to claim our whole region is fascist and is “hiding its true nature”, as the proposal in question does (In wording oddly similar to the liberate kaiserreich resolution).

I do thank you for pointing this out though!
E

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Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3026
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:33 pm

Lalop wrote:Reading through Kavagrads evidence. I'm in shock. They might have been right.

Imagine that. I'm honestly not sure I could roll my eyes any harder.

Man we've really dredged up the worst parts of NS haven't we?

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Kavagrad
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Posts: 1035
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:36 pm

Gagium wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:Jumping back a second, if I may, Gagium has stated that the only open Fascist in FCN has been gone for a long time.

Irou 3 seems pretty open.

All I'm saying is, before you make those broad statements, have a quick check.

They have the whole Fascist Doctrine copy pasted as a dispatch..?

I don’t recall him ever openly expressing that he was a fascist on the RMB (And I don’t believe he’s on our discord), but that is certainly an interesting find.

As such, I’m sure the lot of us disagree with fascism, but the FCN does allow fascists. I personally disagree with fascism as it is a form of socialism and authoritarianism, though we are tolerant of fascists, so long as they aren’t national socialists.

Of course, one openly fascist person, who is not active in the FCN nor is in our discord, isn’t grounds upon which to claim our whole region is fascist and is “hiding its true nature”, as the proposal in question does (In wording oddly similar to the liberate kaiserreich resolution).

I do thank you for pointing this out though!

I'm not arguing any of the above (from this source, anyway), just thought you should be aware. I'm just not comfortable with those kinds of inconsistencies, as you might have already gathered : )
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

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Cedoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6041
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:37 pm

Consular wrote:
Lalop wrote:Reading through Kavagrads evidence. I'm in shock. They might have been right.

Imagine that. I'm honestly not sure I could roll my eyes any harder.

Man we've really dredged up the worst parts of NS haven't we?

Yeah, it's almost like Kava's evidence actually shows what he says it shows, and not the wheedling non-explanations and non-apologies that have been offered for it since then.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.



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