[PASSED] Liberate Confederation Of Corrupt Dictators

[Sefy the Great]

while everyone is having debates about the subject i'm sitting back here wondering whether it would be more insulting to abbreviate them to CCD or CoCD...

[Jocospor]

Quit putting words in my mouth will you?

That is an incredibly ironic exclamation.

[Caracasus]

Quit putting words in my mouth will you?

That is an incredibly ironic exclamation.

From your region's own attempt at a self commendation:

Acknowleding the efforts made by the Confederation of Corrupt Dictators (herein the Confederation) in creating the most populous collective of fascist nations in the world;

[Sonderweg]

OOC: Ok, so you didn't exactly say what I wrote but you did admit you were a Communist OOC and you're perfectly fine with the idea of the SC being used for ideological warfare.

Based on what you also mentioned above, I can see you have an RL emotional investment in the resolution, which only proves my point about the OOC and IC lines being blurred. Now, I don't have any beef against you being Jewish or a Trade Unionist (I'm against Fascism and am a little left-leaning myself) but you have to realize NationStates is first and foremost and Role-Playing game. I'm against using an in-game mechanic to single out regions just because you disagree with their ideology IRL.

I'm not saying you in particular are being toxic, but the arguments you and others put forward in this thread are detrimental to the spirit of the game. People also don't like Communists for very, very good reasons, but I'm not advocating for pushing every last Communist out of the game or attacking Communist regions purely because they're Communist. This game also isn't about giving Fascists a safe space, especially considering how people like you are criticizing them right now.

As per your second part and apparent lack of objectivity. Objectivity here cannot exist when it comes to fascism. As an ideology it takes brutal suppression of dissent to an extreme. Even members of the master race or the party that speak up against something are risking their lives. The only people who would not be seriously done over by fascists are fascists themselves. By your logic, they appear to be the only ones able to give an objective opinion.

I hope you are starting to see the problem when it comes to calling for objectivity when it comes to fascism.

OOC: I never said Fascists are the only ones able to give an objective viewpoint. What I am saying is that people are free to RP in NS with any ideology, including Fascism, without having to worry about being bullied or harassed out of the game itself. I'm not here to give a lecture about the ills of Fascism or Communism, I'm here to chill and have fun. If you're making those arguments against Fascism IC and as a reasoning to support this resolution, I'm perfectly fine with that, but this thread crossed that line a while ago.

[Jocospor]

We distinguish between IC and OOC Fascists just fine. The problem is COCD has NOT been clear in that distinction, and seem to want to have it both ways on the issue. They've claimed the badge of Fascism with pride in the past, and now try to say it's only RP now that they face actual consequences for their behavior. It's up to you to decide whether they were genuine the first time, or whether they are genuine now. Personally, I find the 'it's just RP' excuse unlikely, as usually those not of RL Fascist persuasion take a great many steps to ensure everybody else is aware it's just RP, through sigs, disclaimers or what-not. The fact that COCD did not do this should ring alarm bells.


COCD also made their Fascist positioning an issue when they used it as justification for a self-commendation. If we want to be objective, they can't say that mattered when they were trying to get a commendation, but doesn't matter when others want to respond to their behavior, either it matters or it doesn't, but COCD seems to change whether their Fascist positioning is important depending on whatever particular argument they are advancing at the time. Forgive me, therefore, if I take their denials with a heaping table of salt.

OOC: Except I have been clear in that distinction, as have those of my regional government who have dragged themselves onto this forum to deny the repetitive allegations of them being IRL fascists. Our association with fascism exists solely within the context of this game. Yes, that's right, this game. We've provided nothing in the way of a disclaimer or whatever that we're not IRL fascists because honestly we can't believe that a game would actually expect that of us.

And point of information (although it holds no weight within the context of this game): Mao killed quite a few more than Hitler did. I don't see you demanding a disclaimer from every communist nation, just to reassure everyone that they're not in favour of genocide IRL.

In the words of an issues moderator, please stop putting words in our mouths, its monotonous and flatly insulting. If it keeps up I'll take it up with moderation. Cheers in advance.

[Caracasus]

We distinguish between IC and OOC Fascists just fine. The problem is COCD has NOT been clear in that distinction, and seem to want to have it both ways on the issue. They've claimed the badge of Fascism with pride in the past, and now try to say it's only RP now that they face actual consequences for their behavior. It's up to you to decide whether they were genuine the first time, or whether they are genuine now. Personally, I find the 'it's just RP' excuse unlikely, as usually those not of RL Fascist persuasion take a great many steps to ensure everybody else is aware it's just RP, through sigs, disclaimers or what-not. The fact that COCD did not do this should ring alarm bells.


COCD also made their Fascist positioning an issue when they used it as justification for a self-commendation. If we want to be objective, they can't say that mattered when they were trying to get a commendation, but doesn't matter when others want to respond to their behavior, either it matters or it doesn't, but COCD seems to change whether their Fascist positioning is important depending on whatever particular argument they are advancing at the time. Forgive me, therefore, if I take their denials with a heaping table of salt.

OOC: Except I have been clear in that distinction, as have those of my regional government who have dragged themselves onto this forum to deny the repetitive allegations of them being IRL fascists. Our association with fascism exists solely within the context of this game. Yes, that's right, this game. We've provided nothing in the way of a disclaimer or whatever that we're not IRL fascists because honestly we can't believe that a game would actually expect that of us.

And point of information (although it holds no weight within the context of this game): Mao killed quite a few more than Hitler did. I don't see you demanding a disclaimer from every communist nation, just to reassure everyone that they're not in favour of genocide IRL.

In the words of an issues moderator, please stop putting words in our mouths, its monotonous and flatly insulting. If it keeps up I'll take it up with moderation. Cheers in advance.

Take it up with moderation then, don't threaten to.

I take it that you are closing those embassies with fascist regions as we speak then, seeing as you are just roleplaying?

[Jocospor]

while everyone is having debates about the subject i'm sitting back here wondering whether it would be more insulting to abbreviate them to CCD or CoCD...

Look, CCD is better - CoCD sounds like "cocked" (which we're not, don't worry) *the Delegate's Office giggles at that*

[North Saitama]

So, instead, we should subject them to a kangaroo court, and deny them justice? At this point, are you even trying to hide the intention of ideological warfare?

It is a liberation of a self proclaimed fascist region advertising itself as a haven for fascists. Of course there is an ideological element to it. I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise.

So you admit that this is using the Security Council for ideological warfare, contrary to its mission of maintaining interregional peace and goodwill, and you admit that it is okay to deny justice to people with opinions that you don't agree with?

[Jocospor]

OOC: Except I have been clear in that distinction, as have those of my regional government who have dragged themselves onto this forum to deny the repetitive allegations of them being IRL fascists. Our association with fascism exists solely within the context of this game. Yes, that's right, this game. We've provided nothing in the way of a disclaimer or whatever that we're not IRL fascists because honestly we can't believe that a game would actually expect that of us.

And point of information (although it holds no weight within the context of this game): Mao killed quite a few more than Hitler did. I don't see you demanding a disclaimer from every communist nation, just to reassure everyone that they're not in favour of genocide IRL.

In the words of an issues moderator, please stop putting words in our mouths, its monotonous and flatly insulting. If it keeps up I'll take it up with moderation. Cheers in advance.

Take it up with moderation then, don't threaten to.

I take it that you are closing those embassies with fascist regions as we speak then, seeing as you are just roleplaying?

OOC: Astounding. You seem to have entirely missed the point. Those fascist regions exist within the context of the game. We will thus be interacting with them within the context of the game and leaving our embassies in tact.

[ShrewLlamaLand]

Take it up with moderation then, don't threaten to.

I take it that you are closing those embassies with fascist regions as we speak then, seeing as you are just roleplaying?

OOC: We have exactly zero intention of closing any embassies. It's roleplay in an online game. If for some reason you can't distinguish between what happens inside a game, and what happens outside, frankly that's not our problem.

[Frisbeeteria]

contrary to its mission of maintaining interregional peace and goodwill

Just curious: where exactly did you see this mission statement? I'm pretty sure that's never been the SC's mission, since they very first thing they started doing was condemnations.

The SC is whatever the WA members want it to be. If they choose to vote for ideological warfare, then it's about ideological warfare.

[Cedoria]

We distinguish between IC and OOC Fascists just fine. The problem is COCD has NOT been clear in that distinction, and seem to want to have it both ways on the issue. They've claimed the badge of Fascism with pride in the past, and now try to say it's only RP now that they face actual consequences for their behavior. It's up to you to decide whether they were genuine the first time, or whether they are genuine now. Personally, I find the 'it's just RP' excuse unlikely, as usually those not of RL Fascist persuasion take a great many steps to ensure everybody else is aware it's just RP, through sigs, disclaimers or what-not. The fact that COCD did not do this should ring alarm bells.


COCD also made their Fascist positioning an issue when they used it as justification for a self-commendation. If we want to be objective, they can't say that mattered when they were trying to get a commendation, but doesn't matter when others want to respond to their behavior, either it matters or it doesn't, but COCD seems to change whether their Fascist positioning is important depending on whatever particular argument they are advancing at the time. Forgive me, therefore, if I take their denials with a heaping table of salt.

OOC: I was talking about those on the far-left in this thread failing to distinguish their own OOC and IC views, not the Fascists. How is COCD not being clear in that distinguishment? Do you want their Regional webpage to have a large disclaimer saying "We are NOT actual Fascists and everything we say or do on NationStates is purely for RP purposes as intended by the game"? Because I'm pretty sure no Fascist/ Dictatorial region in the game has such a disclaimer. Nor does any Communist region last time I checked. It kinda goes without saying why no region has to in the context of NationStates.

So they've "claimed the badge of Fascism with pride in the past". And Communist/ Liberal/ Capitalist/ Conservative/ Imperialist/ Totalitarian regions haven't shown pride in their ideologies? They only say it's RP now because people are going OOC to attack their specific region. I don't blame them for that.

So what if they try to commend themselves? Is there a rule stating you can't use the World Assembly to advance your own interests? There's currently a SC proposal where a nation is trying to commend itself! And their proposal got shot down in the end anyway. I'm not saying you can't respond to that behaviour, nor am I against a condemnation of it via the SC, but it's not appropriate to use IRL views and motives to single out and attack regions and nations purely because they are acting out their ideology in-game.

I run a Dictatorial nation with Fascist tendencies alongside a number of other nations including Sonderweg. I have NOTHING in the form of sigs, forums posts, or disclaimers with that Dictatorial nation saying I am not a RL Fascist. Why should I have to? I came into NS with the implication that you can run your nation and RP any way you want, and there is no rule stating you had to put a disclaimer saying "I don't endorse X ideology IRL".

Nations who role play an ideology different from their own often take steps to ensure everybody knows it. I Rp as a fairly conventional one-party ML authoritarian state, but plastered all over my sig is a very clear message about my actual political views, which don't reflect my nation. It's very easy for nations and regions who don't wish to be mistaken for actual Fascists to ensure that they aren't.

Not only did COCD not do that, they flaunted the Fascist label with pride. Now it comes back to bite them, they try and weasel out of it. If you make a song and dance out of being a Fascist, and try to claim gameplay credit on that basis, you can and should expect that people will tell you exactly what they think of you.

Yes, they should make it clear. I do it, many other players do it. If you claim the mantle of Fascism with pride, and don't expressly dissociate yourself with it's RL implications, you will be treated the way any Fascist is treated.

It's really not that hard to grasp.

[Cedoria]

The SC has taken the position that it is just and right to target overly large or obnoxious Fascist regions. Since it's literal job description is the maintenance of interregional peace and goodwill, I would argue that IS the correct position. Fascism is not conducive to peace, goodwill or any of the other objectives of the SC. You are lucky that the consensus so far has been only to target large and active Fascist regions, had I a monopoly, I'd be far more aggressive in that pursuit then the SC has ever been. Be grateful you're only dealing with the current consensus on this.

So using the SC for ideological warfare is now "the maintenance of interregional peace and goodwill"?

Tell me, if a fascist region keeps to itself, and maintains civil and non-aggressive interactions with other regions (if they even interact with other regions), how are they even a threat to interregional peace and goodwill? On the other side of the coin, how is forcefully applying a liberation to a region, regardless of ideology, and compromising their own ability to defend themselves conductive to interregional peace and goodwill?

And you can say "because they are Fascist" all you want, and give me every ideological justification in the world. It doesn't change that you are still committing ideological warfare against a region, for reasons that are purely ideological, and not based on any actual actions.

1: There are lots of reasons people vote for this proposal. My reasons are ideological, that doesn't necessarily mean the resolution is. As far as I know Lord Dominator didn't have any ideological dislike in mind when writing this, Dominator just wants to raid more. (Welcome to correct me if I'm mistaken OP!)

2: The mere existence of Fascism is a threat to interregional peace and goodwill. There is no circumstance under which this is not so. A peaceful Fascist region such as you posit is an impossibility. Fascism makes no secret that it is based on militarism, war and conquest. Peace is literally an impossibility with Fascism, because the ideology itself is bound up with a desire for war and conquest. The mere existence of this ideology is a threat to peace and goodwill, a cancer that must be cut out, lest it infect the rest of us. The Security Council has no business standing by and permitting such threats to fester and grow. It has made clear it's position to smash this threat, and smash it again if necessary, until the threat is cut out entirely. Only a fool or an apologist would posit the possibility of peace with an ideology that is literally based on war and conquest.

[Cedoria]

Take it up with moderation then, don't threaten to.

I take it that you are closing those embassies with fascist regions as we speak then, seeing as you are just roleplaying?

OOC: We have exactly zero intention of closing any embassies. It's roleplay in an online game. If for some reason you can't distinguish between what happens inside a game, and what happens outside, frankly that's not our problem.

Then you will have no problem if we take your recent claims of not being actual Fascists with a grain of salt, since you refuse to do anything that actually might make this possibility likely. No problem, that's your call, but don't expect people to believe you.

[Sefy the Great]

OOC: We have exactly zero intention of closing any embassies. It's roleplay in an online game. If for some reason you can't distinguish between what happens inside a game, and what happens outside, frankly that's not our problem.

Then you will have no problem if we take your recent claims of not being actual Fascists with a grain of salt, since you refuse to do anything that actually might make this possibility likely. No problem, that's your call, but don't expect people to believe you.

countdown to insults from CoCD: T-90 seconds...

[ShrewLlamaLand]

Then you will have no problem if we take your recent claims of not being actual Fascists with a grain of salt, since you refuse to do anything that actually might make this possibility likely. No problem, that's your call, but don't expect people to believe you.

If you want to believe for whatever reason that we're real life fascists because we're roleplaying as such in an online game, that's your call.

Frankly if you still believe that we're real fascists after most of the Supreme Council has come here and stated exactly the opposite, I'm really not sure there's any convincing you, nor is it worth any more effort to try and do so.

countdown to insults from CoCD: T-90 seconds...

Countdown to another five paragraph post on how we must be real life fascists because we don't have "WE AREN'T REAL FASCISTS GUYS" in bold, 100-point font in our WFE...

[Greater Cesnica]

It is my belief that this thread has derailed quite significantly.

[Democratic Empire of Romania]

It is my belief that this thread has derailed quite significantly.

It's not just yours.

[Sefy the Great]

It is my belief that this thread has derailed quite significantly.

i swear, it began with Godwin's law and it'll end with Godwin's law.

[Caracasus]

It is my belief that this thread has derailed quite significantly.

i swear, it began with Godwin's law and it'll end with Godwin's law.

Pretty sure Godwin suspended Godwin's law recently.

[Sefy the Great]

i swear, it began with Godwin's law and it'll end with Godwin's law.

Pretty sure Godwin suspended Godwin's law recently.

searched that up, and sure thing, he did. ok new plan.
i'm going to call that tweet that the man made suspending his law "Godwin's Extension" (see article here), and that shall now be used when it's so blatantly Nazi-like.

[All Wild Things]

I have a friend who played Hearts of Iron 4 as the Germans. Should I be worried about his real life politics?

[Sefy the Great]

I have a friend who played Hearts of Iron 4 as the Germans. Should I be worried about his real life politics?

Germany has the best focus tree hands down. i only wish that they would make a DLC that allows you to go communist. rn they can either stay as hitler and be a bitch to everyone, or bring back the kaiser and be a bitch to the allies/comintern, their choice.

[Jakker]

In the words of an issues moderator, please stop putting words in our mouths, its monotonous and flatly insulting. If it keeps up I'll take it up with moderation. Cheers in advance.

First off, Caracasus is an Issues Editor, not Moderator. There is an important distinction there that I wanted to convey. Secondly, if you believe a post is potentially rule-breaking, you report it. Don't threaten moderation as that is using mods-as-weapons.

Yeah, you better watch out! Internet natzhee death squads are coming to get you! Oy vey goys this' like annudah shoah!

Nova Trieste, you get a *** Warning for Trolling/Flamebaiting ***. I'd recommend you review our forum rules.

[Ransium]

I am the only issues moderator.