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by Sefy the Great » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:06 am
A 12.7 civilization, according to this index.
by Jocospor » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:15 am
by Caracasus » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:19 am
Acknowleding the efforts made by the Confederation of Corrupt Dictators (herein the Confederation) in creating the most populous collective of fascist nations in the world;
by Sonderweg » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:23 am
Sonderweg wrote:Caracasus wrote:OOC: Ok, so you didn't exactly say what I wrote but you did admit you were a Communist OOC and you're perfectly fine with the idea of the SC being used for ideological warfare.
Based on what you also mentioned above, I can see you have an RL emotional investment in the resolution, which only proves my point about the OOC and IC lines being blurred. Now, I don't have any beef against you being Jewish or a Trade Unionist (I'm against Fascism and am a little left-leaning myself) but you have to realize NationStates is first and foremost and Role-Playing game. I'm against using an in-game mechanic to single out regions just because you disagree with their ideology IRL.
I'm not saying you in particular are being toxic, but the arguments you and others put forward in this thread are detrimental to the spirit of the game. People also don't like Communists for very, very good reasons, but I'm not advocating for pushing every last Communist out of the game or attacking Communist regions purely because they're Communist. This game also isn't about giving Fascists a safe space, especially considering how people like you are criticizing them right now.
As per your second part and apparent lack of objectivity. Objectivity here cannot exist when it comes to fascism. As an ideology it takes brutal suppression of dissent to an extreme. Even members of the master race or the party that speak up against something are risking their lives. The only people who would not be seriously done over by fascists are fascists themselves. By your logic, they appear to be the only ones able to give an objective opinion.
I hope you are starting to see the problem when it comes to calling for objectivity when it comes to fascism.
by Jocospor » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:24 am
Cedoria wrote:We distinguish between IC and OOC Fascists just fine. The problem is COCD has NOT been clear in that distinction, and seem to want to have it both ways on the issue. They've claimed the badge of Fascism with pride in the past, and now try to say it's only RP now that they face actual consequences for their behavior. It's up to you to decide whether they were genuine the first time, or whether they are genuine now. Personally, I find the 'it's just RP' excuse unlikely, as usually those not of RL Fascist persuasion take a great many steps to ensure everybody else is aware it's just RP, through sigs, disclaimers or what-not. The fact that COCD did not do this should ring alarm bells.
COCD also made their Fascist positioning an issue when they used it as justification for a self-commendation. If we want to be objective, they can't say that mattered when they were trying to get a commendation, but doesn't matter when others want to respond to their behavior, either it matters or it doesn't, but COCD seems to change whether their Fascist positioning is important depending on whatever particular argument they are advancing at the time. Forgive me, therefore, if I take their denials with a heaping table of salt.
by Caracasus » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:26 am
Jocospor wrote:Cedoria wrote:We distinguish between IC and OOC Fascists just fine. The problem is COCD has NOT been clear in that distinction, and seem to want to have it both ways on the issue. They've claimed the badge of Fascism with pride in the past, and now try to say it's only RP now that they face actual consequences for their behavior. It's up to you to decide whether they were genuine the first time, or whether they are genuine now. Personally, I find the 'it's just RP' excuse unlikely, as usually those not of RL Fascist persuasion take a great many steps to ensure everybody else is aware it's just RP, through sigs, disclaimers or what-not. The fact that COCD did not do this should ring alarm bells.
COCD also made their Fascist positioning an issue when they used it as justification for a self-commendation. If we want to be objective, they can't say that mattered when they were trying to get a commendation, but doesn't matter when others want to respond to their behavior, either it matters or it doesn't, but COCD seems to change whether their Fascist positioning is important depending on whatever particular argument they are advancing at the time. Forgive me, therefore, if I take their denials with a heaping table of salt.
OOC: Except I have been clear in that distinction, as have those of my regional government who have dragged themselves onto this forum to deny the repetitive allegations of them being IRL fascists. Our association with fascism exists solely within the context of this game. Yes, that's right, this game. We've provided nothing in the way of a disclaimer or whatever that we're not IRL fascists because honestly we can't believe that a game would actually expect that of us.
And point of information (although it holds no weight within the context of this game): Mao killed quite a few more than Hitler did. I don't see you demanding a disclaimer from every communist nation, just to reassure everyone that they're not in favour of genocide IRL.
In the words of an issues moderator, please stop putting words in our mouths, its monotonous and flatly insulting. If it keeps up I'll take it up with moderation. Cheers in advance.
by Jocospor » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:31 am
Sefy the Great wrote:while everyone is having debates about the subject i'm sitting back here wondering whether it would be more insulting to abbreviate them to CCD or CoCD...
by North Saitama » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:32 am
Caracasus wrote:North Saitama wrote:
So, instead, we should subject them to a kangaroo court, and deny them justice? At this point, are you even trying to hide the intention of ideological warfare?
It is a liberation of a self proclaimed fascist region advertising itself as a haven for fascists. Of course there is an ideological element to it. I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise.
by Jocospor » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:34 am
Caracasus wrote:Jocospor wrote:OOC: Except I have been clear in that distinction, as have those of my regional government who have dragged themselves onto this forum to deny the repetitive allegations of them being IRL fascists. Our association with fascism exists solely within the context of this game. Yes, that's right, this game. We've provided nothing in the way of a disclaimer or whatever that we're not IRL fascists because honestly we can't believe that a game would actually expect that of us.
And point of information (although it holds no weight within the context of this game): Mao killed quite a few more than Hitler did. I don't see you demanding a disclaimer from every communist nation, just to reassure everyone that they're not in favour of genocide IRL.
In the words of an issues moderator, please stop putting words in our mouths, its monotonous and flatly insulting. If it keeps up I'll take it up with moderation. Cheers in advance.
Take it up with moderation then, don't threaten to.
I take it that you are closing those embassies with fascist regions as we speak then, seeing as you are just roleplaying?
by ShrewLlamaLand » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:35 am
Caracasus wrote:Take it up with moderation then, don't threaten to.
I take it that you are closing those embassies with fascist regions as we speak then, seeing as you are just roleplaying?
by Frisbeeteria » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:36 am
North Saitama wrote:contrary to its mission of maintaining interregional peace and goodwill
by Cedoria » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:39 am
Sonderweg wrote:Cedoria wrote:We distinguish between IC and OOC Fascists just fine. The problem is COCD has NOT been clear in that distinction, and seem to want to have it both ways on the issue. They've claimed the badge of Fascism with pride in the past, and now try to say it's only RP now that they face actual consequences for their behavior. It's up to you to decide whether they were genuine the first time, or whether they are genuine now. Personally, I find the 'it's just RP' excuse unlikely, as usually those not of RL Fascist persuasion take a great many steps to ensure everybody else is aware it's just RP, through sigs, disclaimers or what-not. The fact that COCD did not do this should ring alarm bells.
COCD also made their Fascist positioning an issue when they used it as justification for a self-commendation. If we want to be objective, they can't say that mattered when they were trying to get a commendation, but doesn't matter when others want to respond to their behavior, either it matters or it doesn't, but COCD seems to change whether their Fascist positioning is important depending on whatever particular argument they are advancing at the time. Forgive me, therefore, if I take their denials with a heaping table of salt.
OOC: I was talking about those on the far-left in this thread failing to distinguish their own OOC and IC views, not the Fascists. How is COCD not being clear in that distinguishment? Do you want their Regional webpage to have a large disclaimer saying "We are NOT actual Fascists and everything we say or do on NationStates is purely for RP purposes as intended by the game"? Because I'm pretty sure no Fascist/ Dictatorial region in the game has such a disclaimer. Nor does any Communist region last time I checked. It kinda goes without saying why no region has to in the context of NationStates.
So they've "claimed the badge of Fascism with pride in the past". And Communist/ Liberal/ Capitalist/ Conservative/ Imperialist/ Totalitarian regions haven't shown pride in their ideologies? They only say it's RP now because people are going OOC to attack their specific region. I don't blame them for that.
So what if they try to commend themselves? Is there a rule stating you can't use the World Assembly to advance your own interests? There's currently a SC proposal where a nation is trying to commend itself! And their proposal got shot down in the end anyway. I'm not saying you can't respond to that behaviour, nor am I against a condemnation of it via the SC, but it's not appropriate to use IRL views and motives to single out and attack regions and nations purely because they are acting out their ideology in-game.
I run a Dictatorial nation with Fascist tendencies alongside a number of other nations including Sonderweg. I have NOTHING in the form of sigs, forums posts, or disclaimers with that Dictatorial nation saying I am not a RL Fascist. Why should I have to? I came into NS with the implication that you can run your nation and RP any way you want, and there is no rule stating you had to put a disclaimer saying "I don't endorse X ideology IRL".
by Cedoria » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:52 am
North Saitama wrote:Cedoria wrote:
The SC has taken the position that it is just and right to target overly large or obnoxious Fascist regions. Since it's literal job description is the maintenance of interregional peace and goodwill, I would argue that IS the correct position. Fascism is not conducive to peace, goodwill or any of the other objectives of the SC. You are lucky that the consensus so far has been only to target large and active Fascist regions, had I a monopoly, I'd be far more aggressive in that pursuit then the SC has ever been. Be grateful you're only dealing with the current consensus on this.
So using the SC for ideological warfare is now "the maintenance of interregional peace and goodwill"?
Tell me, if a fascist region keeps to itself, and maintains civil and non-aggressive interactions with other regions (if they even interact with other regions), how are they even a threat to interregional peace and goodwill? On the other side of the coin, how is forcefully applying a liberation to a region, regardless of ideology, and compromising their own ability to defend themselves conductive to interregional peace and goodwill?
And you can say "because they are Fascist" all you want, and give me every ideological justification in the world. It doesn't change that you are still committing ideological warfare against a region, for reasons that are purely ideological, and not based on any actual actions.
by Cedoria » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:55 am
ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Caracasus wrote:Take it up with moderation then, don't threaten to.
I take it that you are closing those embassies with fascist regions as we speak then, seeing as you are just roleplaying?
OOC: We have exactly zero intention of closing any embassies. It's roleplay in an online game. If for some reason you can't distinguish between what happens inside a game, and what happens outside, frankly that's not our problem.
by Sefy the Great » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:01 am
Cedoria wrote:ShrewLlamaLand wrote:OOC: We have exactly zero intention of closing any embassies. It's roleplay in an online game. If for some reason you can't distinguish between what happens inside a game, and what happens outside, frankly that's not our problem.
Then you will have no problem if we take your recent claims of not being actual Fascists with a grain of salt, since you refuse to do anything that actually might make this possibility likely. No problem, that's your call, but don't expect people to believe you.
A 12.7 civilization, according to this index.
by ShrewLlamaLand » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:27 am
Cedoria wrote:Then you will have no problem if we take your recent claims of not being actual Fascists with a grain of salt, since you refuse to do anything that actually might make this possibility likely. No problem, that's your call, but don't expect people to believe you.
Sefy the Great wrote:countdown to insults from CoCD: T-90 seconds...
by Greater Cesnica » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:35 am
Sic Semper Tyrannis.
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”
by Democratic Empire of Romania » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:40 am
Greater Cesnica wrote:It is my belief that this thread has derailed quite significantly.
by Sefy the Great » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:42 am
Greater Cesnica wrote:It is my belief that this thread has derailed quite significantly.
A 12.7 civilization, according to this index.
by Caracasus » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:44 am
by Sefy the Great » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:50 am
A 12.7 civilization, according to this index.
by All Wild Things » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:52 am
by Sefy the Great » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:56 am
All Wild Things wrote:I have a friend who played Hearts of Iron 4 as the Germans. Should I be worried about his real life politics?
A 12.7 civilization, according to this index.
by Jakker » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:07 am
Jocospor wrote:In the words of an issues moderator, please stop putting words in our mouths, its monotonous and flatly insulting. If it keeps up I'll take it up with moderation. Cheers in advance.
Nova Trieste wrote:Yeah, you better watch out! Internet natzhee death squads are coming to get you! Oy vey goys this' like annudah shoah!
The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.
by Ransium » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:28 am
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