[DEFEATED] Condemn the Land of Kings and Emperors

[Kranostav]

Sadly I have a lot of work to do today so don't have the time to campaign any further on this. (I'm not actually sad, it was getting old anyway)

I gave Osiris an explanation but basically the screengrab isn't legitimate, I didn't verify it, and regardless of culpability, I have to take ownership of that.

However. To those who supported the proposal while it contained clause 12, but then withdrew support based on one questionable screengrab. You need to do some introspection on what the moral high ground means to you. Because clause 12 was way more of a reach.

Honestly I'm kind of relieved this is now failing.

Thanks for participating in this experiment everyone. This proposal was a series of increasingly ridiculous claims and my team and I got a real laugh when it almost passed anyway.

I wanted to stay out of this but here we go.

You prop up a proposal that was a reach at best, use an illegitimate screenshot to crucify a region who was already fairly condemnable, then skate away from blame by saying you didn't verify it but 'will take ownership' trying to pretend like you are a good guy and claiming this was an experiment with some imaginary team you have. That is pathetic.

Then after ALL of that, you put yourself on a pedestal and tell all of us to take a look at ourselves because you lied to us and led us to believe something that wasnt true. And only now are you walking it back because you got caught. Boy you have some audacity to be out here putting yourself up on a moral high ground after all this.

So no, this assembly won't pass a resolution that props up lies because of some 'they deserve it anyway' bullshit. Oh and take your introspection line and shove it.

Good luck to you and your 'team' ever passing another resolution during my tenure as Minister in TNP. You are damn well going to need it.

[Cormactopia II]

Sadly I have a lot of work to do today so don't have the time to campaign any further on this. (I'm not actually sad, it was getting old anyway)

I gave Osiris an explanation but basically the screengrab isn't legitimate, I didn't verify it, and regardless of culpability, I have to take ownership of that.

However. To those who supported the proposal while it contained clause 12, but then withdrew support based on one questionable screengrab. You need to do some introspection on what the moral high ground means to you. Because clause 12 was way more of a reach.

Honestly I'm kind of relieved this is now failing.

Thanks for participating in this experiment everyone. This proposal was a series of increasingly ridiculous claims and my team and I got a real laugh when it almost passed anyway.

Oh, okay. Well, don't ask for my help getting anything passed anymore, or my help with anything else for that matter. Thanks!

[Queen Yuno]

Honestly, just read Soul's post; and as a former raider who indirectly knew too much about Bob Moran's lies and deceptions and malicious behavior to his fellow players... if anything, whoever was running LKE at the time, was a victim.

A lot of people are pissed off at the fake screenshot that Consular fabricated about LKE's raid,

But they're missing the most important point. Can I just comment that, that screenshot is IRRELEVANT in face of a WORSE problem that everyone's ignoring?

The *fake OOC smear*

like WTF Consular, we already get a LOT of fake OOC smear campaigns on NS because apparently losers think "if I repeat a lie about someone enough, that lie will come true."

Like hell lol.

The proposal ALREADY HAD A PROBLEM, before the lie came out. You can't just make a fake OOC allegation

The focus, should not be on the fake screenshot, the focus should be on Soul's post.

We as a game, need to take a GREATER STAND against OOC FALSEHOODS. These OOC-related lies, should NEVER be used for political purposes. But they often are

And of course, if there is a suspected OOC problem, PUBLIC HUMILIATION is NOT the way to go. But of course so many idiots decide to do that, without properly investigating or getting their facts straight.


People, if you don't take a stronger stance against fake OOC lies designed to hurt someone, I GUARANTEE it will happen to you. It's a political simulator and some complete psychos will one day, NOT see it as just a game, and see it as RL, and lol they'd totally cross the boundary.

But we as a playerbase, must set boundaries. There is an UNCROSSABLE LINE (the line of smearing someone), but people overlook too easily when someone crosses it. They focus on whether the smear is true or not on the victim and let the victim go free if it's found to be untrue. But rarely is the rumor-starter ever punished.

(Sorry I'm ranting)

Anyway, to Consular, I don't know much about this proposal, but my good friends told me about this event; and they told me that they informed you about the smear and asked you to take it down, "but you didn't care." Wow.

OOC is serious business and needs to be completely fact-checked for accuracy, or better yet, not mentioned at all -- when it says something bad about others and the vericity of the statement is at question. I believe you owe an apology

(just an opinion. However please DON'T* hold it against me for this post. I just prefer a REAL discussion on the ORIGINAL problem, and not have it just brushed aside because of another smaller problem. It would help the community, to set boundaries here and now, about what's acceptable or not.)



EDIT 6/2: I wrote "please hold it against me for this post" I meant Please DON'T. In fact, a mistake is not irreversible, so it's not doom.

[LollerLand]

Even the final season of Game of Thrones wasn't this disappointing :/

[RiderSyl]

Consular, you really fucked up. Own up to it, maybe. The "social experiment" and "just trying to push the limits" stuff just looks like you're making excuses.

The LKE still deserves a Condemnation. I'd support another go at this, just not with this author or anyone associated with them.


Also, a quick PSA: Don't draft any "Condemn Consular" proposals in an attempt to abuse this situation to grab an easy author badge. We're not stupid, we know what you're trying to do, and we won't vote for it.

[Aclion]

We as a game, need to take a GREATER STAND against OOC FALSEHOODS. These OOC-related lies, should NEVER be used for political purposes. But they often are

And of course, if there is a suspected OOC problem, PUBLIC HUMILIATION is NOT the way to go. But of course so many idiots decide to do that, without properly investigating or getting their facts straight.


People, if you don't take a stronger stance against fake OOC lies designed to hurt someone, I GUARANTEE it will happen to you. It's a political simulator and some complete psychos will one day, NOT see it as just a game, and see it as RL, and lol they'd totally cross the boundary.

But we as a playerbase, must set boundaries. There is an UNCROSSABLE LINE (the line of smearing someone), but people overlook too easily when someone crosses it. They focus on whether the smear is true or not on the victim and let the victim go free if it's found to be untrue. But rarely is the rumor-starter ever punished.

(Sorry I'm ranting)

I agree. I'm not sure it's just that i'm paying more attention to game-play or not but it feels like this is becoming increasingly problematic. I've seen these accusations happen, I've seen people acknowledge that the associations are false, misleading or fabricated, but I've never seen people take the issue seriously despite the fact that it attacks the systems region have to keep their members safe. But it's basically shrugged off. It's among the most despicable things a person can do in this game but it's not treated as such. At best it's treated a diplomatic incident, but it's often just written off as realpolitik.

Also, a quick PSA: Don't draft any "Condemn Consular" proposals in an attempt to abuse this situation to grab an easy author badge. We're not stupid, we know what you're trying to do, and we won't vote for it.

I mean, this is grounds for a condemnation(assuming that it's not rules breaking) Labeling a player as not to be trusted is what condemnation are best for.

[RiderSyl]

I've seen these accusations happen, I've seen people acknowledge that the associations are false, misleading or fabricated, but I've never seen people take the issue seriously despite the fact that it attacks the systems region have to keep their members safe. But it's basically shrugged off. It's among the most despicable things a person can do in this game but it's not treated as such. At best it's treated a diplomatic incident, but it's often just written off as realpolitik.

If the places you hang out in are shrugging off false OOC accusations and treating false OOC accusations as in-character, then maybe you should hang out somewhere else, instead of assuming the whole game is like that.

Also, a quick PSA: Don't draft any "Condemn Consular" proposals in an attempt to abuse this situation to grab an easy author badge. We're not stupid, we know what you're trying to do, and we won't vote for it.

I mean, this is grounds for a condemnation(assuming that it's not rules breaking) Labeling a player as not to be trusted is what condemnation are best for.

Shitty behavior in the course of a Condemnation proposal is not grounds for having a Condemnation proposal passed against you. If it was, a lot of players would have Condemnations attached to their names, and the shitty behavior would become more common.

[Aclion]

I've seen these accusations happen, I've seen people acknowledge that the associations are false, misleading or fabricated, but I've never seen people take the issue seriously despite the fact that it attacks the systems region have to keep their members safe. But it's basically shrugged off. It's among the most despicable things a person can do in this game but it's not treated as such. At best it's treated a diplomatic incident, but it's often just written off as realpolitik.

If the places you hang out in are shrugging off false OOC accusations and treating false OOC accusations as in-character, then maybe you should hang out somewhere else instead of assuming the whole game is like that.

Not really possible. That would mean opting out of basically every gameplay relevant region. How many regions sanctioned TSP over the debacle with Escade? How many have blacklisted Caelapes? The world isn't divided into regions that treat this appropriately and regions that don't. It's divided into regions that don't respond appropriately and regions whose response is irrelevant because they have no connection to the incident.

I mean, this is grounds for a condemnation(assuming that it's not rules breaking) Labeling a player as not to be trusted is what condemnation are best for.

Shitty behavior in the course of a Condemnation proposal is not grounds for having a Condemnation proposal passed against you. If it was, a lot of players would have Condemnations attached to their names, and the shitty behavior would become more common.

Having mark on your nation noting that you've falsified evidence to advance a political goal is a pretty to way to terminally soil any reputation a player might have built. It wouldn't make the behavior more common because people who would be tempted try this stunt to get condemned don't have a reputation to soil in the first place.

[Blueflarst]

Sadly
Thanks for participating in this experiment everyone. This proposal was a series of increasingly ridiculous claims and my team ahttps://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatchesnd I got a real laugh when it almost passed anyway.

DAMN YOU!

[Novian Republics]

Honestly, just read Soul's post; and as a former raider who indirectly knew too much about Bob Moran's lies and deceptions and malicious behavior to his fellow players... if anything, whoever was running LKE at the time, was a victim.

A lot of people are pissed off at the fake screenshot that Consular fabricated about LKE's raid,

But they're missing the most important point. Can I just comment that, that screenshot is IRRELEVANT in face of a WORSE problem that everyone's ignoring?

The *fake OOC smear*

like WTF Consular, we already get a LOT of fake OOC smear campaigns on NS because apparently losers think "if I repeat a lie about someone enough, that lie will come true."

Like hell lol.

The proposal ALREADY HAD A PROBLEM, before the lie came out. You can't just make a fake OOC allegation

The focus, should not be on the fake screenshot, the focus should be on Soul's post.

We as a game, need to take a GREATER STAND against OOC FALSEHOODS. These OOC-related lies, should NEVER be used for political purposes. But they often are

And of course, if there is a suspected OOC problem, PUBLIC HUMILIATION is NOT the way to go. But of course so many idiots decide to do that, without properly investigating or getting their facts straight.


People, if you don't take a stronger stance against fake OOC lies designed to hurt someone, I GUARANTEE it will happen to you. It's a political simulator and some complete psychos will one day, NOT see it as just a game, and see it as RL, and lol they'd totally cross the boundary.

But we as a playerbase, must set boundaries. There is an UNCROSSABLE LINE (the line of smearing someone), but people overlook too easily when someone crosses it. They focus on whether the smear is true or not on the victim and let the victim go free if it's found to be untrue. But rarely is the rumor-starter ever punished.

(Sorry I'm ranting)

Anyway, to Consular, I don't know much about this proposal, but my good friends told me about this event; and they told me that they informed you about the smear and asked you to take it down, "but you didn't care." Wow.

OOC is serious business and needs to be completely fact-checked for accuracy, or better yet, not mentioned at all -- when it says something bad about others and the vericity of the statement is at question. I believe you owe an apology

(just an opinion. However please hold it against me for this post. I just prefer a REAL discussion on the ORIGINAL problem, and not have it just brushed aside because of another smaller problem. It would help the community, to set boundaries here and now, about what's acceptable or not.)

While I admire your sentiment, I fear that it may be a bit naive. You see, the blending of IC and OOC in political role-play is pretty much a long standing issue, one that also often gets ignored at large by communities. Solely because of that, any attempt to rectify this issue is more or less futile as, to put it bluntly, people simply do not care [at large].

The current allocation of votes can be taken as an example of people not caring (albeit arguably for another issue): Sure, the majority of votes are now against the resolution. However, that is only because of the existence of delegates. If one removes the delegates, one gets an entirely different picture; the "For" side would be ahead with approximately 1.5 k votes(!)

Now I admit, the above example may not be so accurate for a variety of reasons (e.g. people being unable or unwilling to change their vote for whatever reason). However, that doesn't change one crucial thing; namely the growing political polarisation in the world. How is this an issue for us you may ask? Well, this is because of an increasing intolerance of other political standpoints than one's own. This, coupled with people's inability to separate fiction and reality, makes it that much harder to solve IC/OOC blending issues.

So you see trying to solve IC/OOC blending is really an uphill battle, in the sense that progress will most certainly be slow (if any is made at all). Don't get me wrong though, I would love for the issue to be solved, even if it's only here. So don't take this all as me attempting to discourage work towards a solution. It's just that I don't see there being an easy solution under these circumstances.

Edit: Added "spoiler" tags

Edit 2: Note that there are still coming in more votes FOR despite the revelations. (Individual votes FOR changed from 3977 to 3980 after posting)

Edit 3: Ignore Edit 2

[RiderSyl]

Not really possible. That would mean opting out of basically every gameplay relevant region. How many regions sanctioned TSP over the debacle with Escade? How many have blacklisted Caelapes? The world isn't divided into regions that treat this appropriately and regions that don't. It's divided into regions that don't respond appropriately and regions whose response is irrelevant because they have no connection to the incident.

"Region that treats these things appropriately" seems to actually mean "Region that treats these things like Aclion wants them to".

Shitty behavior in the course of a Condemnation proposal is not grounds for having a Condemnation proposal passed against you. If it was, a lot of players would have Condemnations attached to their names, and the shitty behavior would become more common.

Having mark on your nation noting that you've falsified evidence to advance a political goal is a pretty to way to terminally soil any reputation a player might have built. It wouldn't make the behavior more common because people who would be tempted try this stunt to get condemned don't have a reputation to soil in the first place.

Having a mark on your nation noting you've falsified evidence to advance a political goal would be pretty damning. That's not what a Condemnation is, though. It's just an edgy-looking badge at the top of your nation page that only goes into detail on why it's there if you bother directly clicking on it, which most people don't. "Condemn Consular" wouldn't do what you're claiming it would, and would do what you're claiming it wouldn't. The type of people who would try to get Condemned by making a fool out of themselves in the Security Council would be the type to gladly build up a reputation just to burn it down for attention and infamy.

While I admire your sentiment, I fear that it may be a bit naive. You see, the blending of IC and OOC in political role-play is pretty much a long standing issue, one that also often gets ignored at large by communities. Solely because of that, any attempt to rectify this issue is more or less futile as, to put it bluntly, people simply do not care [at large].

Great, someone else taking their personal experiences and turning them into how greater NS behaves. The blending of IC and OOC is frowned upon very heavily on the site, especially in Gameplay. The uptick in just how much OOC drama there seems to be lately has put a bad taste in everyone's mouth. To characterize people as ignoring the problems is nonsense. The amount of soapboxing going on in this thread is evidence enough that it's not ignored. People care, too. Just not enough to actually do something about it.

The current allocation of votes can be taken as an example of people not caring (albeit arguably for another issue): Sure, the majority of votes are now against the resolution. However, that is only because of the existence of delegates. If one removes the delegates, one gets an entirely different picture; the "For" side would be ahead with approximately 1.5 k votes(!)

Now I admit, the above example may not be so accurate for a variety of reasons (e.g. people being unable or unwilling to change their vote for whatever reason).

The above example is total bullshit for a very big reason. The Lemming Effect. Remove the delegates, and you get the players that vote based on how the name sounds, or if there's more For than Against, or if the target raided at some point. They don't read this thread. Most of them don't know it exists. Trying to extract some sort of greater meaning from that group of voters is a fools errand.

However, that doesn't change one crucial thing; namely the growing political polarisation in the world. How is this an issue for us you may ask? Well, this is because of an increasing intolerance of other political standpoints than one's own. This, coupled with people's inability to separate fiction and reality, makes it that much harder to solve IC/OOC blending issues.

You're.. you're just rambling at the end here. Those things are barely, if at all, related to the IC/OOC divide.

Edit 2: Note that there are still coming in more votes FOR despite the revelations. (Individual votes FOR changed from 3977 to 3980 after posting)

[Novian Republics]

While I admire your sentiment, I fear that it may be a bit naive. You see, the blending of IC and OOC in political role-play is pretty much a long standing issue, one that also often gets ignored at large by communities. Solely because of that, any attempt to rectify this issue is more or less futile as, to put it bluntly, people simply do not care [at large].

Great, someone else taking their personal experiences and turning them into how greater NS behaves. The blending of IC and OOC is frowned upon very heavily on the site, especially in Gameplay. The uptick in just how much OOC drama there seems to be lately has put a bad taste in everyone's mouth. To characterize people as ignoring the problems is nonsense. The amount of soapboxing going on in this thread is evidence enough that it's not ignored. People care, too. Just not enough to actually do something about it.

The current allocation of votes can be taken as an example of people not caring (albeit arguably for another issue): Sure, the majority of votes are now against the resolution. However, that is only because of the existence of delegates. If one removes the delegates, one gets an entirely different picture; the "For" side would be ahead with approximately 1.5 k votes(!)

Now I admit, the above example may not be so accurate for a variety of reasons (e.g. people being unable or unwilling to change their vote for whatever reason).

The above example is total bullshit for a very big reason. The Lemming Effect. Remove the delegates, and you get the players that vote based on how the name sounds, or if there's more For than Against, or if the target raided at some point. They don't read this thread. Most of them don't know it exists. Trying to extract some sort of greater meaning from that group of voters is a fools errand.

However, that doesn't change one crucial thing; namely the growing political polarisation in the world. How is this an issue for us you may ask? Well, this is because of an increasing intolerance of other political standpoints than one's own. This, coupled with people's inability to separate fiction and reality, makes it that much harder to solve IC/OOC blending issues.

You're.. you're just rambling at the end here. Those things are barely, if at all, related to the IC/OOC divide.

Edit 2: Note that there are still coming in more votes FOR despite the revelations. (Individual votes FOR changed from 3977 to 3980 after posting)

I would argue that not caring enough to do anything is practically the same as ignoring the problem. But that's purely a subjective thing, one that you don't necessarily have to agree with.

As for the Lemming Effect, I was going to include it in the examples but decided against it because I didn't want to write too much. (Also, honestly forgot that it was called that, so I admit that at least a mention would have been good.)

You may see the last part as rambling, but I assure you it most certainly is not. One example of it actually having any bearing is the fact that some people like to play with their RL ideology, which is where the things mentioned may become an issue.

(I know, that last edit was dumb and kind of pointless. I blame it on brain farts. )

Edit: Formatting

[Aclion]

Not really possible. That would mean opting out of basically every gameplay relevant region. How many regions sanctioned TSP over the debacle with Escade? How many have blacklisted Caelapes? The world isn't divided into regions that treat this appropriately and regions that don't. It's divided into regions that don't respond appropriately and regions whose response is irrelevant because they have no connection to the incident.

"Region that treats these things appropriately" seems to actually mean "Region that treats these things like Aclion wants them to".

Breaking news: person's opinion bases on own views.

Great, someone else taking their personal experiences and turning them into how greater NS behaves. The blending of IC and OOC is frowned upon very heavily on the site, especially in Gameplay. The uptick in just how much OOC drama there seems to be lately has put a bad taste in everyone's mouth. To characterize people as ignoring the problems is nonsense. The amount of soapboxing going on in this thread is evidence enough that it's not ignored. People care, too. Just not enough to actually do something about it.

I would argue that not caring enough to do anything is practically the same as ignoring the problem. But that's purely a subjective thing, one that you don't necessarily have to agree with.

Yeah bitching in GP, if not followed up with sanctions is just sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[Republica JIM]

There are false evidence!!

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Yeah bitching in GP, if not followed up with sanctions is just sound and fury, signifying nothing.

I used the whole of that phrase from Macbeth in GP once and got reported to the Mods for flaming. Fris warned William Shakespeare retroactively.

[Catsfern]

Consular, you really fucked up. Own up to it, maybe. The "social experiment" and "just trying to push the limits" stuff just looks like you're making excuses.

The LKE still deserves a Condemnation. I'd support another go at this, just not with this author or anyone associated with them.



Also, a quick PSA: Don't draft any "Condemn Consular" proposals in an attempt to abuse this situation to grab an easy author badge. We're not stupid, we know what you're trying to do, and we won't vote for it.

I fully support any well written resolution to condemn consular but I agree it shouldn't be rushed just so someone can get a badge, but regardless consular deserves some sort of punishment for this.

[Murden]

Is this the SC equivalent of "It's just a prank bro?"
Of course now that Consular has been proven a liar and support has tilted away they chose to say it was all part of a "plan."
This is a childish deflection; even if it were true, it would demonstrate blatant disrespect and disgusting behavior unbecoming of involvement in the SC.

[Jocospor]

The LKE still deserves a Condemnation. I'd support another go at this, just not with this author or anyone associated with them.

OOC: Don't take it to heart, Consular, particularly coming from this player. You did make a lot of mistakes, but nothing you can't fix given time and practise. Since NationStates is a game, I'd still encourage you to play the World Assembly if that's what you want to do. Just bear in mind there will always be (varying degrees of) people who stand against you. That said, I've personally learned that some will stand with you, and that opens up whole new aspects of role-play, game-play and socialising.

If the WA is what you want to do, keep at it.

[Murden]

The LKE still deserves a Condemnation. I'd support another go at this, just not with this author or anyone associated with them.

OOC: Don't take it to heart, Consular, particularly coming from this player. You did make a lot of mistakes, but nothing you can't fix given time and practise. Since NationStates is a game, I'd still encourage you to play the World Assembly if that's what you want to do. Just bear in mind there will always be (varying degrees of) people who stand against you. That said, I've personally learned that some will stand with you, and that opens up whole new aspects of role-play, game-play and socialising.

If the WA is what you want to do, keep at it.

There's no need to coddle Consular as if they are a new player or else is someone ignorant of NS gameplay. They knew exactly what they were doing.

[Aclion]

Yeah bitching in GP, if not followed up with sanctions is just sound and fury, signifying nothing.

I used the whole of that phrase from Macbeth in GP once and got reported to the Mods for flaming. Fris warned William Shakespeare retroactively.

Were you calling someone an idiot?

[Kranostav]

The LKE still deserves a Condemnation. I'd support another go at this, just not with this author or anyone associated with them.

OOC: Don't take it to heart, Consular, particularly coming from this player. You did make a lot of mistakes, but nothing you can't fix given time and practise. Since NationStates is a game, I'd still encourage you to play the World Assembly if that's what you want to do. Just bear in mind there will always be (varying degrees of) people who stand against you. That said, I've personally learned that some will stand with you, and that opens up whole new aspects of role-play, game-play and socialising.

If the WA is what you want to do, keep at it.

Josco out here recruiting another for the WA Bad Bois Club

[Jar Wattinree]

Yeah bitching in GP, if not followed up with sanctions is just sound and fury, signifying nothing.

I used the whole of that phrase from Macbeth in GP once and got reported to the Mods for flaming. Fris warned William Shakespeare retroactively.

Out of curiosity do you have a link to that post?

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

I used the whole of that phrase from Macbeth in GP once and got reported to the Mods for flaming. Fris warned William Shakespeare retroactively.

Out of curiosity do you have a link to that post?

Yep, here it is:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=345241&p=25004171&hilit=Shakespeare#p25004171

Have to admit I chuckled over Fris’ ruling, but I might have dodged a bullet there.

[Jar Wattinree]

Have to admit I chuckled over Fris’ ruling, but I might have dodged a bullet there.

That is hilarious.

On another note:

"Condemn The Land of Kings and Emperors" was defeated 8,505 votes to 6,791.

[RiderSyl]

The LKE still deserves a Condemnation. I'd support another go at this, just not with this author or anyone associated with them.

OOC: Don't take it to heart, Consular, particularly coming from this player.

"particularly coming from this player"? Lol what the fuck.