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[DEFEATED] Condemn the Land of Kings and Emperors

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Fulford
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Founded: May 03, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fulford » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:20 am

Blueflarst wrote:
Fulford wrote:Please Telegram me if you would be interested in a movement in which we all condemn Consular for false evidence against the LKE


if the false evidence is true i am IN


Great! I've gotten quite a few allies. I am currently writing a draft and then i will submit it to a forum for people to debate. I currently need two endorsements to submit the proposal.
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Fulford
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Founded: May 03, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Condemn Consular!

Postby Fulford » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:34 am

I've written my draft for the condemnation of Consular!

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=465536
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Borovan entered the region as he
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Borovan entered the region as he » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:36 am

WHY R WE YELLING
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Jakker
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:47 am

Whether or not to condemn Consular is not what this thread is about. Stick to the proposal at vote.
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The United Royal Islands of Euramathania
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The United Royal Islands of Euramathania » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:53 am

Cormactopia II wrote:Tentatively withdrawing my support for this particular proposal and voting against it, based on the apparent falsification of that screen shot. If Consular can produce some explanation for this that isn't falsification, then I'll support the proposal again, but I'm struggling to see any other possible explanation.

I still support condemnation of The LKE in principle, but falsifying evidence is not okay. Hopefully someone else will draft a more accurate condemnation.


As Delegate of 10000 Islands, I find myself in the position of agreement with this sentiment. A condemnation of LKE should likely exist for all the reasons stated in my prior post; however in fabricating evidence Consular has shown a similar disregard for the rules and norms. I am disappointed that Consular felt this was necessary.
Last edited by The United Royal Islands of Euramathania on Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Consular
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:50 pm

Sadly I have a lot of work to do today so don't have the time to campaign any further on this. (I'm not actually sad, it was getting old anyway)

I gave Osiris an explanation but basically the screengrab isn't legitimate, I didn't verify it, and regardless of culpability, I have to take ownership of that.

However. To those who supported the proposal while it contained clause 12, but then withdrew support based on one questionable screengrab. You need to do some introspection on what the moral high ground means to you. Because clause 12 was way more of a reach.

Honestly I'm kind of relieved this is now failing.

Thanks for participating in this experiment everyone. This proposal was a series of increasingly ridiculous claims and my team and I got a real laugh when it almost passed anyway.

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Ayeinc
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Founded: May 03, 2019
Democratic Socialists

How?

Postby Ayeinc » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:58 pm

Hello World! I am wondering how the votes for this resolution flipped in a matter of hours? Since this is the forum for this resolution, I am hoping to get some answers. I have read the resolution and noticed some key points and flaws. I am new to NationStates and have not heard of any of these crimes committed. I just voted FOR because the rest of my region and WA Delegate did. Thank you.
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Borovan entered the region as he
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Borovan entered the region as he » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:03 pm

Consular wrote:Sadly I have a lot of work to do today so don't have the time to campaign any further on this. (I'm not actually sad, it was getting old anyway)

I gave Osiris an explanation but basically the screengrab isn't legitimate, I didn't verify it, and regardless of culpability, I have to take ownership of that.

However. To those who supported the proposal while it contained clause 12, but then withdrew support based on one questionable screengrab. You need to do some introspection on what the moral high ground means to you. Because clause 12 was way more of a reach.

Honestly I'm kind of relieved this is now failing.

Thanks for participating in this experiment everyone. This proposal was a series of increasingly ridiculous claims and my team and I got a real laugh when it almost passed anyway.

Well that sucks
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Catsfern
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Catsfern » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:20 pm

Consular wrote:Sadly I have a lot of work to do today so don't have the time to campaign any further on this. (I'm not actually sad, it was getting old anyway)

I gave Osiris an explanation but basically the screengrab isn't legitimate, I didn't verify it, and regardless of culpability, I have to take ownership of that.

However. To those who supported the proposal while it contained clause 12, but then withdrew support based on one questionable screengrab. You need to do some introspection on what the moral high ground means to you. Because clause 12 was way more of a reach.

Honestly I'm kind of relieved this is now failing.

Thanks for participating in this experiment everyone. This proposal was a series of increasingly ridiculous claims and my team and I got a real laugh when it almost passed anyway.


So you’re telling me you were trying to condemn a region AS A JOKE, that has to be punishable somehow.
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Catsfern
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Catsfern » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:21 pm

Ayeinc wrote:Hello World! I am wondering how the votes for this resolution flipped in a matter of hours? Since this is the forum for this resolution, I am hoping to get some answers. I have read the resolution and noticed some key points and flaws. I am new to NationStates and have not heard of any of these crimes committed. I just voted FOR because the rest of my region and WA Delegate did. Thank you.


Pretty much vote flipped because some of the evidence was faked and when that fact came out the resolution lost support REALLY quick.
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Ayeinc
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Founded: May 03, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Re: How?

Postby Ayeinc » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:27 pm

Catsfern wrote:
Ayeinc wrote:Hello World! I am wondering how the votes for this resolution flipped in a matter of hours? Since this is the forum for this resolution, I am hoping to get some answers. I have read the resolution and noticed some key points and flaws. I am new to NationStates and have not heard of any of these crimes committed. I just voted FOR because the rest of my region and WA Delegate did. Thank you.


Pretty much vote flipped because some of the evidence was faked and when that fact came out the resolution lost support REALLY quick.


I see. What evidence was that?
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Catsfern
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Catsfern » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:34 pm

See last page second post down
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Eumaeus
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Founded: Jan 27, 2018
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Eumaeus » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:35 pm

Ayeinc wrote:
Catsfern wrote:
Pretty much vote flipped because some of the evidence was faked and when that fact came out the resolution lost support REALLY quick.


I see. What evidence was that?

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Connetikit
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Founded: Jun 01, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Connetikit » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:38 pm

I, The Republic of Connetikit, member of the Pacific Region, will change my vote. I will vote against this resolution. This is the result of clear fabrication of evidence by Consular. Although I do not support the LKE in any way nor Imperialism for that matter, I also do not support lying in order to deceive members of the World Assembly. I hope Consular faces the consequences of his actions.
Last edited by Connetikit on Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tonalare
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Founded: May 23, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tonalare » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:46 pm

Fulford wrote:
Tonalare wrote:I am disappointed at the language that made it's way into the resolution and could have easily been swayed by LKE's response and believed that this was little more than a personal vendetta. However given the extensive examples given and after much research, I believe the veracity of the claims in the resolution. Despite my initial objections over the motive of the condemnation, I agree with Consular's resolution.

Votes in favor


This. I agree with this. Sure the language in the resolution seemed unprofessional. I can't help but agree with Consular's resolution.


Unfortunately after today's events it seems that we have fallen for deception. I can no longer support this resolution.

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Novian Republics
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Founded: Nov 16, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby Novian Republics » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:08 pm

Consular wrote:Sadly I have a lot of work to do today so don't have the time to campaign any further on this. (I'm not actually sad, it was getting old anyway)

I gave Osiris an explanation but basically the screengrab isn't legitimate, I didn't verify it, and regardless of culpability, I have to take ownership of that.

However. To those who supported the proposal while it contained clause 12, but then withdrew support based on one questionable screengrab. You need to do some introspection on what the moral high ground means to you. Because clause 12 was way more of a reach.

Honestly I'm kind of relieved this is now failing.

Thanks for participating in this experiment everyone. This proposal was a series of increasingly ridiculous claims and my team and I got a real laugh when it almost passed anyway.

Well, this is an great example of what can happen when one only read into issues at surface level and/or let one's emotions get the better of oneself. One risks getting manipulated like sheeple. Then again, reading into issues in depth while attempting to be dispassionate about it requires so much time and effort that it's no wonder people don't bother. Hell, arguably took the easy way myself by just assuming that both sides are lying or are at fault to some extent. (Although that's a conclusion I reached after reading through the whole thread and resolution, which is of course arguably still surface level.)

All things considered, even though it may have gotten heated at times, and that this may not have been the desired outcome for many, at least it has been an illuminating and educational experience.

Ayeinc wrote:I see. What evidence was that?

Since people have already answered your question (albeit by kind of redirecting you), I'll just add this: If you want a more complete picture of this whole ordeal, I suggest you read through the whole thread from beginning to end and take everything with a pinch of salt.
Last edited by Novian Republics on Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Connetikit
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Founded: Jun 01, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Connetikit » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:11 pm

Novian Republics wrote:
Consular wrote:Sadly I have a lot of work to do today so don't have the time to campaign any further on this. (I'm not actually sad, it was getting old anyway)

I gave Osiris an explanation but basically the screengrab isn't legitimate, I didn't verify it, and regardless of culpability, I have to take ownership of that.

However. To those who supported the proposal while it contained clause 12, but then withdrew support based on one questionable screengrab. You need to do some introspection on what the moral high ground means to you. Because clause 12 was way more of a reach.

Honestly I'm kind of relieved this is now failing.

Thanks for participating in this experiment everyone. This proposal was a series of increasingly ridiculous claims and my team and I got a real laugh when it almost passed anyway.

Well, this is an great example of what can happen when one only read into issues at surface level and/or let one's emotions get the better of oneself. One risks getting manipulated like sheeple. Then again, reading into issues in depth while attempting to be dispassionate about it requires so much time and effort that it's no wonder people don't bother. Hell, arguably took the easy way myself by just assuming that both sides are lying or are at fault to some extent. (Although that's a conclusion I reached after reading through the whole thread and resolution, which is of course arguably still surface level.)

All things considered, even though it may have gotten heated at times, and that this may not have been the desired outcome for many, at least it has been an illuminating and educational experience.

Ayeinc wrote:I see. What evidence was that?

Since people have already answered your question (albeit by kind of redirecting you), I'll just add this: If you want a more complete picture of this whole ordeal, I suggest you read through the whole thread from beginning to end and take everything with a pinch of salt.


Well said. I, along with many others, totally fell for it. He did a great job using loaded language tactics to manipulate me and others. Thank goodness Onder got to the bottom of it. This just goes to show how easy it is to manipulate people into believing somethings that just isn't true. As you said earlier, this is an educational experience. In the future, when anyone makes such claims, we need to do research and investigate before formulating an opinion and casting a vote.

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Consular
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:10 pm

Should add -- I'm not saying this was my plan all along or anything like that. I'm not that machiavellian. It would have been great if this passed. But frankly I thought that was always fairly unlikely -- and I wanted to push the limits of what we could get away with. Pushed too hard. GG gents. I hope this was an interesting drama for everyone involved and the spectators.

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Aexnidaral
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Founded: Aug 25, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Aexnidaral » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:17 pm

Consular wrote:Sadly I have a lot of work to do today so don't have the time to campaign any further on this. (I'm not actually sad, it was getting old anyway)

I gave Osiris an explanation but basically the screengrab isn't legitimate, I didn't verify it, and regardless of culpability, I have to take ownership of that.

However. To those who supported the proposal while it contained clause 12, but then withdrew support based on one questionable screengrab. You need to do some introspection on what the moral high ground means to you. Because clause 12 was way more of a reach.

Honestly I'm kind of relieved this is now failing.

Thanks for participating in this experiment everyone. This proposal was a series of increasingly ridiculous claims and my team and I got a real laugh when it almost passed anyway.


Is this the NS equivalent of someone doing a really bad YouTube video or Twitter thread and when they get ratio'ed they claim it was just a social experiment?

I mean, I suppose this could be true but I find it... hard to believe? There are some people who genuinely believe LKE deserves a condemnation, and while I vehemently disagree with them, many are arguing in good faith. I don't see how burning that bridge helps accomplish anything. To be honest, if I was one of those true believers who really wanted to condemn LKE for awhile and saw this response I'd be even more pissed. I just genuinely don't understand which would be worse: this 'defense' being true or false.
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Jocospor
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Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Jocospor » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:26 pm

We concur heartily with the sentiments echoed by Aexnidaral. It's indeed a relief that this Assembly has seen through a pack of lies.

To the LKE, we say: Congratulations on what will be a deserved victory. Continue to hold yourselves in high esteem and actively combat those who seek to undermine you with falsities.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:49 pm

Edit: I may be behind the news on this proposal. Work sucks. But this is generally still important to say.

Whether the LKE's list of deeds over the years warrants a condemnation is one matter. Whether their other deeds out weight that is another. Whether they'd like one is another yet. But to me, all of these discussions are overridden by a single dishonest, disingenuous, and dangerous line.

I'm sure the Bob Moran line has been beaten to death here already, but I'd like to personally emphasis how proposal-killing I see it as.

Engagement of recruitment practices that are considered against inter-regional expectations, and subsequently blaming these actions on a scapegoated individual when ultimately caught and punished.


This is outright insulting to the efforts of the entire gameplay community to root out rulebreakers and "fix the faction."

"Scapegoat?" "Blame?" From the very moment Sedge announced the matter, "blame" was places very solidly on the shoulders of Bob by site staff. The wider LKE denied knowledge of the script from the start, and when Moderation further assessed the matter, Halcones, TBR founder, was deleted as well for his knowing involvement, while no further action was levied against the LKE. Sedge notes that the punishment delivered to the region was to undo the physical effect of the illegal recruitment, without challenging the assertion that regional leadership knew nothing. It's important to note that at the time, it was literally impossible to restrict telegram recruitment for a region at all - that feature of regional controls only was added after this incident on specific request of the LKE. Even those new settings do nothing to prevent a trusted recruiter from single handedly operating an illegal script on the manual telegram interface without the knowledge of the rest of the region. There is no credible counter to the LKE's claims they had legitimately no idea, especially in an era prior to the modern (justified) script paranoia.

If you want to write a condemnation of the LKE, go right ahead, and let the vote decide. Normally, I'd bless that process alone. But there was no reason to take an inaccurate, slanderous, conspiracy-theory, OOC shot in the middle of an otherwise political proposal, especially on an issue that the LKE has done as much as anyone to actively combat.

Regardless of my views as an SC author or as a raider, as a player, this line alone renders the whole proposal worthy of nothing but the trash bin in my eyes. Let's not malign people for things there's no proof they had any knowledge of, and have consistently worked to prevent from ever happening again thereafter.

EDIT: Admittedly, I guess.

Consular wrote:However. To those who supported the proposal while it contained clause 12, but then withdrew support based on one questionable screengrab. You need to do some introspection on what the moral high ground means to you. Because clause 12 was way more of a reach.


Consular, I've respected you at times, but come the fuck on. You're better than reaching that far on this one.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Grenhold
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Founded: Jan 15, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Grenhold » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:53 pm

Consular wrote:Should add -- I'm not saying this was my plan all along or anything like that. I'm not that machiavellian.


Yeah, after this stellar display I don't think anyone thinks that anymore.

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Catsfern
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Founded: Mar 09, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Catsfern » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:55 pm

Consular wrote:Should add -- I'm not saying this was my plan all along or anything like that. I'm not that machiavellian. It would have been great if this passed. But frankly I thought that was always fairly unlikely -- and I wanted to push the limits of what we could get away with. Pushed too hard. GG gents. I hope this was an interesting drama for everyone involved and the spectators.


I don’t really think you should be using a serious institution like the W.A. For “fun”
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King HEM
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby King HEM » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:05 pm

Consular wrote:Sadly I have a lot of work to do today so don't have the time to campaign any further on this. (I'm not actually sad, it was getting old anyway)

I gave Osiris an explanation but basically the screengrab isn't legitimate, I didn't verify it, and regardless of culpability, I have to take ownership of that.

However. To those who supported the proposal while it contained clause 12, but then withdrew support based on one questionable screengrab. You need to do some introspection on what the moral high ground means to you. Because clause 12 was way more of a reach.

Honestly I'm kind of relieved this is now failing.

Thanks for participating in this experiment everyone. This proposal was a series of increasingly ridiculous claims and my team and I got a real laugh when it almost passed anyway.


Yup, you and "your team" yeah right uh huh.

So bad. So cringy. So dumb.

The only social experiment here was for the greater world community: would we be willing to unite in rejecting a resolution written by a now-admitted half-rate con man, and guess what, we did. Everyone won, except Consular.

A round of drinks on me, and let's blow this popsicle stand.
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Anagonia
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Founded: Dec 18, 2003
New York Times Democracy

Postby Anagonia » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:29 pm

The Anagonian government finds the fabricating evidence on behalf of the dishonorable Consularians to be horrifying and shocking. The security council has a long and prestigious history of backing condemnations that were legitimate and worthy, but it was instantly noteworthy that the claims made on behalf of the Consularian delegates were indeed suspicious considering the actions of the Land of Kings and Emperors did not fall under the necessary gaze of this honorable council of nations. It is with hope that this security council, while notably voting on this resolution, shall vote against it with due haste and promptly put up to vote a proper condemnation of the Consularian nation for its heinous acts against this World Assembly.

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