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[DEFEATED] Condemn the Land of Kings and Emperors

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Fri May 31, 2019 9:39 am

Lord Dominator wrote:The idea that this was proposed or is passing being due to LKE being a monarchial region is ludicrous.

This.
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Blueflarst
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Postby Blueflarst » Fri May 31, 2019 10:37 am

Satuga wrote:
Jocospor wrote:Worth noting is the current ideological position of NationStates. It's one thing to hate on the fascists, it's one thing to lump dictatorships in there too - but the simple monarchy? "The Land of Kings and Emperors" certainly evokes a sense of centrally-controlled governance and tradition. It would be a shame if this inaccurate resolution passed significantly aided by prejudice stemming from an unjustified stereotype.


Whilst somewhat true, it is certainly undeniable that there are a few nations within the region that likely does not deserve condemnation, it seems that the vast majority of the region is involved in the acts. (Also slight side note I just find it slightly funny coming from you seeing how your quote is "End democracy" lol but I digress) The Satugan people have never had favorable feelings towards monarchies and single party systems, as the potential for corruption is very high. So even then the Satugan people are likely to Condemn these nations.


As a monarchy i have less corruption than other nations like my friend republic Furbish islands
Last edited by Blueflarst on Fri May 31, 2019 10:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Blueflarst
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Postby Blueflarst » Fri May 31, 2019 10:42 am

The corruption depends on the lider purity not on the systems
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri May 31, 2019 11:55 am

That makes quite literally no sense Blueflarst
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Blueflarst
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Postby Blueflarst » Fri May 31, 2019 12:01 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:That makes quite literally no sense Blueflarst

if has sense if you aplly the real values the monarchs are supposed to apply
The monarchy los their prestige for abusive monarchs whom did not apply the monarch code.
A monarch must serve the kingdom
The crown is a symbol of unity towards the people the representation
of an elite ruling with an even hand for developing the state and improving the domains of his property.

But this is only the theory and multiple monarchs forgot their code and duty and abused their crown the people and destroyed their domain in useless wars.
It is not the monarchy fault but the impurity of bad peoples
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The United Royal Islands of Euramathania
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Postby The United Royal Islands of Euramathania » Fri May 31, 2019 12:08 pm

Statement on “Condemn The Land Of Kings And Emperors”,

10000 Islands votes FOR the resolution and encourages other delegates and nations to approve this condemnation.

Additionally, I have prepared the following statement in response to the resolution, in-order to provide to our region and the world a statement of my values, and commitment to advocacy.

As a general rule, myself and prior XKI Delegates, have frowned on approving condemnations as they can act as a badge for those regions and nations, and conversely incentivize the behavior which the SC seeks to penalize. In this matter, given the extensive campaign against the resolution by the region I have come to feel that this converse relationship is unlikely to exist in this case. Further given the departure from this norm, I feel compelled to make an statement clarifying my views and opinions on this resolution.

During my campaign to become Delegate of 10000 Islands, I stated the following:
As I see it being vocally against raiding isn’t a matter of converting individuals to the “correct side”. It is about the process of amplifying a critique of the system - and advocating for the necessary changes which would address the systemic harms in a comprehensive way.

In taking a stance on this resolution and providing a more full statement as to my views, I attempt to honor this commitment to advocacy.

As a stating point, the resolution in question states, and I agree with the following assertion:
Rejecting the spurious notion that a region has some kind of perverse right to cause unjustified damage to others through acts of random aggression, and the dangerous ideal that selfish regional interests should take precedence over protecting inter-regional peace and doing what is right,


Regions are in theory supposed to be an independent creative space and by coming in and destroying that harms and undermines the ability of people to build those communities. No-one should have the power to abuse others for their own enjoyment. Raiding is griefing - the whole so called “art form” is nothing more than bullying permitted in part by absent game designers.

I believe, that there exists feasible and practical means to provide for an R/D game which doesn't suffer from the moral harms done under the status quo. This follows from the first principle that R/D as a game concept presents no obvious moral wrong. Just as children play cops and robbers, so to playing the brigand or the man of honor for fun, and sport, represents no harm done to willing participants. However moral harm is done from the outset when it is not made clear to players of all stripes of the inclusion of it within the game, thus preventing the necessary conditions for consent to the R/D game. Nationstates does not market itself on the wargame aspect of the game, nor was it provided for originally.

To the best of my knowledge it arose naturally out of an unrelated process and grew there. That it is justified by the primary coder in the forum [v], and tucked into the middle of the FAQ, do not alleviate these harms as it is not obvious to any new person that they should have to check those places first, and thus necessarily lacks the clarity needed for authentic informed consent. There exists processes which could be undertaken but have not been and likely will not, which would alleviate this initial harm done to players. However, it should be noted, that if it was intended to have been included in a transparent manner it would have been provided for in the coding and baked into the game more clearly.

The other issue is that, the R/D game cannot be opt’d out of, not permanently, nor in a way which is not subject to reversal. This means even an RP region, or Issues Players, must necessarily participate on either side in order to protect itself. There exist no where for that community to exist outside of the R/D game. Even if they are left alone for long periods, the duration of not being targeted doesn't protect them in the event of founder CTE. This harm is separate from the initial harm done in the design failure, and is instead continually perpetrated when anyone enters a region with the intent to undermine a communities expression of itself.

In this manner, the harms here would be addressed if as above, if the game had been properly provided for in the first instance, but even if we allowed this flawed first harm, more can be done to address the specific reapplication of harm to communities and thus should be. The failure of admin to provide for the informed consent to the R/D game, nor to provide a consistent opt out from it, constitute an clear logical and moral issue with R/D as it is conducted.

In reading this debate, I was struck by a comment made by King HEM, of Europeia, in his defense of LKE:
King HEM wrote: The Land of Kings and Emperors has undoubtedly been one of the strongest forces behind the development and politicization of Nationstates, providing political frameworks that have defined entire swaths of regions' government, politik, and culture.


In his attempt to defend this region from condemnation, he highlights this fundamental fact of the status quo - that in the absence of conscious design on behalf of the game moderators, those who had established regions and R/D practices have been able to shape and direct the culture of NationStates such that their activities are accepted and affirmed regardless of harms caused to others. While not solely responsible, that LKE officials in the thread also claim a role in promoting this culture, and do so in order to achieve positive affirmation for the region and forestall international judgement, thusly confirms my belief that it is necessary and proper to vote for this condemnation, despite the norms surrounding condemnation.

Further, that the resolution also clearly demonstrates how LKE violates the consensus views of the international order in their actions, should convince all those who do accept the status quo culture to vote for condemnation as well. I have no doubt, that any group or person who transgress the norms in such an egregious manner will find other ways to flout norms and rules where they feel it is in their own interest. It appears to me that despite assertions and protestations, this is no honorable region in a den of thrives, forced to conduct its business this way - but one which pushes boundaries, breaks with norms and standards, all in the name of regional self interest. We can hope the shame of being recognized and called out on this behavior will serve to caution to LKE in their extra-territorial activities and to others whom might be willing to head down a similar path.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri May 31, 2019 3:15 pm

Fancy bit of campaigning you put out there LKE.

I'm sure the textwalls are appreciated by all :)
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Mestovakia
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Postby Mestovakia » Fri May 31, 2019 3:22 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:Fancy bit of campaigning you put out there LKE.

I'm sure the textwalls are appreciated by all :)


It certainly was appreciated by me.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri May 31, 2019 3:47 pm

Mestovakia wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Fancy bit of campaigning you put out there LKE.

I'm sure the textwalls are appreciated by all :)


It certainly was appreciated by me.

Lol
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The Notorious Mad Jack
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Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Fri May 31, 2019 3:50 pm

I didn't appreciate the lie in that telegram that LKE didn't know about the invasion of TRR in advance. Like it's laughable to think they didn't know it advance when the LKE emperor was leading the operation. There's more than enough wrong with this resolution without resorting to that stupidity.
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Valfor
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Postby Valfor » Fri May 31, 2019 4:13 pm

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:I didn't appreciate the lie in that telegram that LKE didn't know about the invasion of TRR in advance. Like it's laughable to think they didn't know it advance when the LKE emperor was leading the operation. There's more than enough wrong with this resolution without resorting to that stupidity.

I am glad you agree that the resolution as a whole is flawed. The telegram is specific and honest as to who commanded TNI's military.

It remains true that the LKE's government and military commanders did not receive advance notice of the mission, like to the other 15 regions whose forces were ejected. Then Emperor Onder being aware of a piece of information privately does not mean that the LKE military as an institution was aware of it, anymore than the LKE could be claimed to have knowledge of the inner workings of Europeia's courts system today with Onder as Chief Justice. The LKE was far from the only region which had officials who overlapped with TNI command at the time. The bottom line is that TNI secrets were not leaked to the LKE by dual citizens.

Amidst the other issues identified in the telegram, some of them even more significant, the core point on this issue is that the operation should be attributed primarily to TNI, as the party which planned and executed it - not to the other 16 regions whose forces were ejected by TNI. It is inaccurate to attribute the operation to the LKE without even referencing TNI.
Last edited by Valfor on Fri May 31, 2019 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ru-
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Postby Ru- » Fri May 31, 2019 4:53 pm

We are not supporting this resolution because LKE is a region of monarchies. Ru is a monarchy, afterall. We support it because LKE are raiders.
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Fri May 31, 2019 5:14 pm

Whoah a telegram to all WA nations. Bit desperate if you ask me.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri May 31, 2019 5:21 pm

Consular wrote:Whoah a telegram to all WA nations. Bit desperate if you ask me.

Only 96% desperate, they dropped off Europe & all delegates :p
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King HEM
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Postby King HEM » Fri May 31, 2019 5:46 pm

In his attempt to defend this region from condemnation, he highlights this fundamental fact of the status quo - that in the absence of conscious design on behalf of the game moderators, those who had established regions and R/D practices have been able to shape and direct the culture of NationStates such that their activities are accepted and affirmed regardless of harms caused to others. While not solely responsible, that LKE officials in the thread also claim a role in promoting this culture, and do so in order to achieve positive affirmation for the region and forestall international judgement, thusly confirms my belief that it is necessary and proper to vote for this condemnation, despite the norms surrounding condemnation.

Further, that the resolution also clearly demonstrates how LKE violates the consensus views of the international order in their actions, should convince all those who do accept the status quo culture to vote for condemnation as well. I have no doubt, that any group or person who transgress the norms in such an egregious manner will find other ways to flout norms and rules where they feel it is in their own interest. It appears to me that despite assertions and protestations, this is no honorable region in a den of thrives, forced to conduct its business this way - but one which pushes boundaries, breaks with norms and standards, all in the name of regional self interest. We can hope the shame of being recognized and called out on this behavior will serve to caution to LKE in their extra-territorial activities and to others whom might be willing to head down a similar path.


My comment was not specifically, or even primarily, about R/D gameplay. It was about the strong tradition of political gameplay that The Land of Kings and Emperors inspired through its internal constitutional government and political processes. The LKE certainly did not invent politics in this inherently political game, but it brought to the forefront a set of institutions to inter-regional governance that forever changed how regions structured their internal governments and culture.

From The Land of Kings and Emperors to Hampshire, to The New Inquisition, to Europeia, to Albion, and all the more modern regions that have been inspired by these communities, have felt the influence of the LKE. The only true rival to this scope of influence is perhaps Great Britain & Ireland, which also left its mark on UCR worldbuilding.

As to the whole moral arguments against invading...well, you made feel five years younger. Throwback to 2012/2013 for sure!
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RiderSyl
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Postby RiderSyl » Fri May 31, 2019 6:40 pm

King HEM wrote:As to the whole moral arguments against invading...well, you made feel five years younger. Throwback to 2012/2013 for sure!


Confirmation that HEM can't do math. :p
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Borovan entered the region as he
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Postby Borovan entered the region as he » Fri May 31, 2019 7:13 pm

Voting aye bc they bribed us with free asana burritos

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri May 31, 2019 7:20 pm

And Consular counters with a somewhat shorter textwall!
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Fri May 31, 2019 7:22 pm

Cleaner formatting too if you ask me.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri May 31, 2019 7:26 pm

Consular wrote:Cleaner formatting too if you ask me.

shrugs
More sources cited though :p
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Cormactopia II
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Postby Cormactopia II » Fri May 31, 2019 7:37 pm

Hi, former Pharaoh of Osiris here, and the person who was Pharaoh in 2013 during the incident cited in this clause:

6. Attempted manipulation of the region Osiris when it was under occupation by a rogue state, by dishonestly offering support to both sides and needlessly prolonging the conflict for its own benefit, which included leveraging its position to force Osiris to withdraw from the Pan-Sinker Security Pact and to sever all contact with the Founderless Regions Alliance, in what amounted to a blatant display of extortion.

The Land of Kings and Emperors is contesting this by saying they were engaged in a stealth operation to help Osiris, with the authorization of the government of Osiris at the time. What is true is that they did have the authorization of the government of Osiris at the time, and they claimed they were helping us. For quite some time, I believed them. But I no longer believe their claims of helping us to be true, and I'll tell you why.

For years, and right up to the present day, the person who led the coup against Osiris, Durkadurkiranistan II, has maintained that the United Imperial Armed Forces -- which included The LKE -- was working with him the entire time and he knew what they were doing. He has maintained that they were deliberately prolonging his coup, while fooling Osiran natives into believing they were actually engaged in a sleeper operation. He maintains that when it became clear his coup was at an inevitable end, they talked the Osiran government into the extortive peace deal rather than engaging in the promised military liberation. I can confirm that it was UIAF leaders, particularly North East Somerset, who talked me into the extortive peace deal, on the grounds that military liberation could not be guaranteed and it was safer. He also attempted to talk me into keeping the deal, but ultimately I threw it out.

You might ask, why believe the guy who couped Osiris? I believe him because he has no reason to lie. He no longer actively plays this game, and moreover, far from having any kind of grudge against The LKE and its associate regions, he has always been friendly to them. He was a longtime participant in Balder, and when he maintained his own imperialist regions, he ensured they maintained close relations with other imperialist regions, including The LKE. There's simply no reason he would have lied about the UIAF's role in the extortion of Osiris, and I believe him. There is no doubt in my mind that Osiris was deceived by the UIAF, including The LKE, in 2013, and that they were actually working with and for the coupers the entire time.

So please don't believe that particular line of propaganda in what was, for the most part, an incredibly deceptive counter-campaign telegram.

For its many wrongs against so many regions, including the four Sinker regions and especially occupied Balder, The LKE should be condemned.
Last edited by Cormactopia II on Fri May 31, 2019 7:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Jocospor
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Postby Jocospor » Fri May 31, 2019 8:52 pm

RiderSyl wrote:How unsurprising that the CCD and its ilk found the most factually detached way to criticize the proposal.

Monarchist and autocratic meritocracies have been popular on NS for years and years. Fascists have never been popular. You won't find common cause with us, so look elsewhere.


*snickers* If you say so. Besides, what better way than to criticise a factually-detached proposal?
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Kuramia
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Postby Kuramia » Fri May 31, 2019 11:55 pm

I noticed a funny thing when I was looking over a TG sent by Consular. It was an "old screenshot" of the regional front page of Slavia, claiming proof positive that LKE had destroyed the region. It looks like a legit screenshot. It's missing a little bit though, that piece underneath that tells you when a WFE is updated called Regional Happenings.

https://www.nationstates.net/region=slavia

If you don't want to click the link, let me quote it here:
5 hours ago: The Queendom of Lagertha updated the World Factbook entry.
5 hours ago: The Queendom of Lagertha updated the World Factbook entry.
2 days 3 hours ago: The Holy Democracy of The Universe World of the region The Great Universe proposed constructing embassies.
30 days ago: The Republic of Lipnitska departed this region for Velika Slavia.
30 days ago: The Republic of Lipnitska arrived from Velika Slavia.
54 days ago: Acj of the region One world peace proposed constructing embassies.
64 days ago: Kazachok ceased to exist.
68 days ago: Novolandia departed this region for Velika Slavia.
68 days ago: Novolandia arrived from Osiris.
89 days ago: Socialisticko carstvo jugoslavije ceased to exist.

The WFE was updated twice around 17:54 UTC -07:00. The TG was sent 18:26 UTC -07:00. Now anyone can tell you that's circumstantial. Except for one little thing.

On the bottom left of this screenshot, you see exactly what you expect, links. One of these threads was created March 5th, 2019. The post shown here aligns with the WFE edit from Regional Happenings and Lagertha's RSS feed. viewtopic.php?p=35759801&sid=1f603509d921a13c295be59a64964e25#p35759801
Image

How old is this screenshot supposed to be, Consular? 2014?

Just for fun, let's look for those other threads:
All of these topics had posts created at the same time of the WFE edit according to the Regional Happenings of Slavia. That's why they're in that screenshot supposedly from 2014.

I'd love to hear an explanation, Consular. As this stands, it appears this screenshot has been falsified, like much of your proposal.
Last edited by Kuramia on Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Blueflarst
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Postby Blueflarst » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:42 am

Consular wrote:Whoah a telegram to all WA nations. Bit desperate if you ask me.

You sent another after. Bit desesperate aswell
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Onderkelkia
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Postby Onderkelkia » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:49 am

The scam revealed by Kuramia's post is extremely disturbing. We already knew that Consular was willing to make false and misleading statements in order to perpetrate this fraud against the NationStates public. Now we know that he is willing to go a step further - impersonation of the LKE and literally fabricating evidence that the LKE re-founded Slavia.

If you look at the four topics shown in the 'Latest New Topics' section of the "old screenshot" in Consular's telegram (https://i.imgur.com/B2eri02.png in the telegram, saved copy at https://i.imgur.com/dpHjZiO.png), posts were made in them at the following times:

Fri May 31, 2019 5:53 pm - A Warm Welcome from London(OOC, Always open) - viewtopic.php?p=35759804&sid=60a240deac39e2d3406d33daff5cf63a#p35759804
Fri May 31, 2019 5:52 pm - New Udonian International Embassy Program - viewtopic.php?p=35759801&sid=9c95fb9cc0367ccf438eb3f531a7b3c6#p35759801
Fri May 31, 2019 5:51 pm - The 30th Parallel War (TWI Only) - viewtopic.php?p=35759800&sid=ff32d80bcf5001ec9df479c54ef76b4d#p35759800
Fri May 31, 2019 5:50 pm - AN Video Game — make an achievement. - viewtopic.php?p=35759799#p35759799

The "old screenshot" concerned shows the WFE of Slavia with the statement "This region was refounded by The Land of Kings and Emperors" in it.

Then, in the last day, for the first time in over 300 days based on the founder's national happenings, we have two WFE edits in Slavia:

7 hours ago: The Queendom of Lagertha updated the World Factbook entry.
7 hours ago: The Queendom of Lagertha updated the World Factbook entry.

The RSS feed for Lagertha puts those edits at 17:54:07 and 17:54:35 on Fri, 31 May 2019. Edits directly after the above topics - the ones in the screenshot - were posted in. Meaning that those topics will have appeared as the 'Latest New Topics' at the time of the edit. The time of Consular's screenshot.

There is nothing "old" about that screenshot. It's from when the WFE was edited.

Subsequently Consular's mass telegram containing this "old screenshot" arrives (although I assume it varies by a few minutes for different nations) in my WA nation at 02:26:21 in my timezone and, for comparison to the above, 18:26:21 in the server's current timezone (UTC-7 or UTC-8 on DST).

Thus, the "old screenshot" showing the Slavia WFE stating that LKE refounded Slavia was taken by Consular at the exact same time as the WFE was edited twice. Presumably it was edited once to insert the false statement so the screenshot could be taken and then edited again to restore the usual World Factbook Entry. And then Consular sends his telegram out half an hour later, lying that the LKE claimed to have re-founded Slavia on its WFE and stating that "The region doesn't say that anymore because they're trying to cover their tracks." Bare-faced lying based on the fabrication of evidence. Far from the LKE having re-founded Slavia, whoever controls the founder nation appears to be in coordination with Consular's vendetta against the LKE.

This is truly shameful behaviour, staging screenshots and impersonating another group of players, that crosses acceptable gameplay boundaries. Consular states above that the LKE is "desperate" for merely arguing our case. Yet he is prepared to invent evidence to improve his chances of winning a WA vote.

This proposal is a fraud. If the resolution passes on the back of this scam, it will not be the LKE's integrity which is impugned.
Last edited by Onderkelkia on Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:31 am, edited 5 times in total.
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, Basileus Emeritus of Polis, etc.

Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Prince of Jomsborg, Balder
Archduke, The New Inquisition
Viscount, Great Britain and Ireland

Balder Chief of Defence
Chief Justice of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Balder Statsminister
Balder Foreign Minister
Balder Integration Minister

GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO
Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF

WA Delegate of The Rejected Realms

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