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[DEFEATED] Condemn the Land of Kings and Emperors

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Consular
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Thu May 30, 2019 6:24 pm

Isaris wrote:Not all heroes wear capes, kid.

Could we please tone down the cringe. Thanks

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Isaris
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Founded: Jul 18, 2009
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Postby Isaris » Thu May 30, 2019 6:44 pm

Consular wrote:
Isaris wrote:Not all heroes wear capes, kid.

Could we please tone down the cringe. Thanks

Really? You, who wrote this line:
boring everyone to death with catastrophically uninteresting text

want me to turn down the cringe? I think not. I think I'll be going for the Oscar for Best Cringe Moment 2019.

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu May 30, 2019 7:47 pm

This thread has taken a very odd turn.

Maybe like, don't have a hero complex or something over a dumb proposal on a browser game?
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Holy Roman Empires2
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Keep it up!

Postby Holy Roman Empires2 » Thu May 30, 2019 7:52 pm

I am a w.a delegate, and the fact that that proof was submitted and it was a personal telegram really swung the vote for me. The vote is really close, so a couple of delegates will decide everything.

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Tonalare
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Founded: May 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Tonalare » Thu May 30, 2019 8:32 pm

I am disappointed at the language that made it's way into the resolution and could have easily been swayed by LKE's response and believed that this was little more than a personal vendetta. However given the extensive examples given and after much research, I believe the veracity of the claims in the resolution. Despite my initial objections over the motive of the condemnation, I agree with Consular's resolution.

Votes in favor

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Isaris
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Isaris » Thu May 30, 2019 11:52 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:This thread has taken a very odd turn.

Maybe like, don't have a hero complex or something over a dumb proposal on a browser game?

Maybe, like, don't make a flippant remark that implies I have some kind of mental health issue as a way to demean me, especially during May?

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Borovan entered the region as he
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Ex-Nation

Postby Borovan entered the region as he » Thu May 30, 2019 11:53 pm

Isaris wrote:This resolution is a steaming pile of feces and anyone voting for it should feel ashamed of themselves. You all make me sick. Grow the hell up.

The bloody in heck is this

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Armaros
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Postby Armaros » Fri May 31, 2019 12:35 am

The United peoples of caedis wrote:This condemning of the LKE as per the language used is merely a personal vendetta against the region in its entirety

This is just a why moment as if consular has a personal grudge against the LKE then he should try and find another way to deal with it as by making this condemnation if it passes newer nations who most likely have done nothing or know of what’s even happened that is mentioned in the post who are in the LKE are being condemned for something they weren’t involved in so consular.

If you have such a personal grudge against the LKE just find a different way to settle the grudge that leaves those who have no involvement in these events out of it


Das einzige, was für den Triumph des Bösen notwendig ist, ist, dass gute Menschen nichts tun

*sigh* really folks? Try and have a go and disprove his actual arguements. Seriously folks, is this the arguement y'all could whine about? Yes, Consular has a grudge against the LKE. Guess what? Everything he says in that resolution is true. Y'all maybe should look at the content of the proposal rather then the motives of the author, in this case at least.
Isaris wrote:Nothing is objectively "garbage", "obnoxiously written" or "amateurish", those are all subjective adjectives and cannot be objectively proven with evidence. As far as I'm concerned, this resolution should not be legal and that NS mods continue to claim that it is shakes my entire faith in their ability to properly conduct their duties regarding SC resolutions.

A good thing then that nobody cares wether you find it legal or not. We have rules for proposals, I suggest you read them before you start complaining about the mods doing their job by following them.
Isaris wrote:This resolution is a steaming pile of feces and anyone voting for it should feel ashamed of themselves. You all make me sick. Grow the hell up.

...what... I don't... I can't even...
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Novian Republics
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Founded: Nov 16, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby Novian Republics » Fri May 31, 2019 12:53 am

Whatever happened to civilised discussion, or am I mistaken to believe that there ever has been any in the SC? Genuine question.

Obviously, the toxicity, name calling and ad hominem attacks (in other words: personal attacks) need to stop, otherwise this thread might derail even further and finally maybe even warrant moderator intervention. We should all ask ourselves; is that really somewhere we want to be?

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Jocospor
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Postby Jocospor » Fri May 31, 2019 3:46 am

Novian Republics wrote:Whatever happened to civilised discussion, or am I mistaken to believe that there ever has been any in the SC? Genuine question.


Honestly, "deluded" might have been a better choice.

The Confederation stands along side the LKE. This resolution is built off a pack of lies; we look forward to seeing this World Assembly shut it down.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
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Emazia
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Founded: May 04, 2019
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Emazia » Fri May 31, 2019 4:01 am

The United peoples of caedis wrote:This condemning of the LKE as per the language used is merely a personal vendetta against the region in its entirety

This is just a why moment as if consular has a personal grudge against the LKE then he should try and find another way to deal with it as by making this condemnation if it passes newer nations who most likely have done nothing or know of what’s even happened that is mentioned in the post who are in the LKE are being condemned for something they weren’t involved in so consular.

If you have such a personal grudge against the LKE just find a different way to settle the grudge that leaves those who have no involvement in these events out of it


Das einzige, was für den Triumph des Bösen notwendig ist, ist, dass gute Menschen nichts tun

Isaris wrote:This resolution is a steaming pile of feces and anyone voting for it should feel ashamed of themselves. You all make me sick. Grow the hell up.


Hear, hear!
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Emazia
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Right-wing Utopia

Postby Emazia » Fri May 31, 2019 4:04 am

Lord Dominator wrote:This thread has taken a very odd turn.

Maybe like, don't have a hero complex or something over a dumb proposal on a browser game?

Technically speaking, by following your warning, it would be a violation of the sanctity of the browser game. The entire point of the game is to act as the leader of a nation. If one does not do that and instead follows some fourth-wall breaking advice, then you violate the sanctity of the game.
“We could manage to survive without the money changers and stockbrokers, but we would rather find it difficult to survive without miners, steel workers and those who cultivate the land.” - Nye Bevan

“The mutual-aid tendency in man has so remote an origin, and is so deeply interwoven with all the past evolution of the human race, that is has been maintained by mankind up to the present time, notwithstanding all vicissitudes of history.” - Peter Krotopkin,

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Fri May 31, 2019 4:21 am

Isaris wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:This thread has taken a very odd turn.

Maybe like, don't have a hero complex or something over a dumb proposal on a browser game?

Maybe, like, don't make a flippant remark that implies I have some kind of mental health issue as a way to demean me, especially during May?

I wasn't aware suggesting that you not call yourself a hero for fighting a dumb proposal implies you have a mental health issue. Apologies then, that wasn't my intention (not sure why it being May matters though).
Emazia wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:This thread has taken a very odd turn.

Maybe like, don't have a hero complex or something over a dumb proposal on a browser game?

Technically speaking, by following your warning, it would be a violation of the sanctity of the browser game. The entire point of the game is to act as the leader of a nation. If one does not do that and instead follows some fourth-wall breaking advice, then you violate the sanctity of the game.

Following the given advice would be entirely in-line with this particular sub-forum, which is traditionally out of character.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Fri May 31, 2019 4:25 am

Novian Republics wrote:Whatever happened to civilised discussion, or am I mistaken to believe that there ever has been any in the SC? Genuine question.

Obviously, the toxicity, name calling and ad hominem attacks (in other words: personal attacks) need to stop, otherwise this thread might derail even further and finally maybe even warrant moderator intervention. We should all ask ourselves; is that really somewhere we want to be?

Most, if not all, the personal attacks have been aimed at the author of the resolution. I think there has been only one genuine attempt in this thread to rebut the points made by Consular. Pretty much all of the toxicity has come from those opposing this Condemnation.

And if you think Moderator intervention is called for, please call into that forum and make a report.

Jocospor wrote:The Confederation stands along side the LKE.

Knowing this makes me even happier in voting “For” the resolution.
Last edited by Bhang Bhang Duc on Fri May 31, 2019 4:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Catsfern
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Postby Catsfern » Fri May 31, 2019 5:02 am

Thank you someone said it.
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Onderkelkia
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Corporate Police State

Postby Onderkelkia » Fri May 31, 2019 5:30 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Novian Republics wrote:Whatever happened to civilised discussion, or am I mistaken to believe that there ever has been any in the SC? Genuine question.

Obviously, the toxicity, name calling and ad hominem attacks (in other words: personal attacks) need to stop, otherwise this thread might derail even further and finally maybe even warrant moderator intervention. We should all ask ourselves; is that really somewhere we want to be?

Most, if not all, the personal attacks have been aimed at the author of the resolution. I think there has been only one genuine attempt in this thread to rebut the points made by Consular. Pretty much all of the toxicity has come from those opposing this Condemnation.

On the first page of this discussion, I highlighted a specific objection to a clause of the resolution:
Onderkelkia wrote:
Consular wrote:[*]Engagement of recruitment practices that are considered against inter-regional law, and subsequently blaming these actions on a scapegoated individual when ultimately caught and punished.

Bob Moran was not a "scapegoat", but the sole individual within the LKE who was aware of his non-rule-compliant activities. It is grossly unfair to claim that the LKE scapegoated Bob Moran by blaming him for deceiving the region in the same way as he deceived everyone else in the game. The LKE had no idea what he was doing prior to the announcement of his actions by the moderators. Nor did we have any means of reasonably detecting his actions.

Even if the LKE benefited from Bob Moran's actions, and you believe that it was accordingly appropriate for the moderators to reduce the LKE population as a result by imposing the three-month ban on regional recruiment back in 2015, it remains the case that the LKE had no knowledge of Bob Moran's actions and did nothing to suggest he should act in that way. You cannot therefore claim that the LKE scapegoated Bob Moran for criticising him for actions that he performed for reasons unbeknownst to us without the knowledge of anyone else in the LKE. Bob Moran had freewill and is responsible for his own actions.

You bring discredit on yourself by attempting to use this incident for political purposes.

To which I received this response:

Consular wrote:*ignores Onder's silly post*


That is an extremely serious problem - false claims of OOC cheating made to advance a political agenda - and it was openly ignored.

When I replied rebutting a post he made on the TNI issue, another clause of the resolution, Consular just posted:

Consular wrote:*Ignores Onder again*


So there have been genuine efforts to engage with Consular's proposal, but they were ignored: "ignores Onder's silly post", "Ignores Onder again".



Indeed, when he first proposed this resolution back in September, Consular openly stated on the NSGP server that he was "peddling misinformation" and also stated his intent to ignore any detailed reply rebutting the separate parts posted by myself. Like he ignored my posts above.

Since it was submitted, HEM also provided some objections, to which he was simply told "All of your points are technicalities and obfuscations".

Given this, I quite understand why the debate is mainly focused on the dubious motivations of an individual who is demonstrably acting in bad faith and has no interest in a genuine discussion.

Anyone familiar with the substance knows that the whole resolution is a glorified exercise in deliberate distortion after deliberate distortion, primarily intended to provoke a response. As for personal attacks, the proposal's text unnecessarily refers to me as "the criminally inclined Emperor of the LKE". If calling into question Consular's motivations for authoring the resolution is "toxic", then how would one term the text of the resolution itself with its misrepresentation of the Bob Moran situation - something the LKE's defender enemies didn't do at the time - and the inclusion of such personal abuse?

At every point in the draft, insult is prized over dispassionate appraisal and anyone who reads it should be able to see that. Ultimately, for a lot of nations in the world, the specific accuracy of the resolution is just a "technicality", because they believe that any region that performs raids should be condemned and these nations will vote for the condemnation without a second thought. Sadly, we know that lots of nations will vote for something without considering the truth of specific elements if the resolution aligns with their general sentiment. We know that. But let us not pretend about what is really going on here.

If what you want is a detailed refutation of every point in the resolution rather than objections to individual parts like the ones I posted earlier, the LKE has provided one for anyone interested in it. We could have posted it here, but Consular has already informed us of his intention to ignore it. Evidently there is no point talking with him. When someone else posted a link to the rebuttal here for discussion, it was completely ignored by Consular and the other supporters of the resolution, save for your own post referring to it as a wall of text. More generally, nowadays there are large groups of people I have never had any interaction with who seem to enjoy watching me write long posts and then responding only to mock them. I am not giving them the pleasure.
Last edited by Onderkelkia on Fri May 31, 2019 7:23 am, edited 20 times in total.
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Satuga
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Postby Satuga » Fri May 31, 2019 6:03 am

Due to the deplorable acts from the region, the Satugan people have decided to vote for this condemnation. However the Satugan people are also disgusted by the absolute toxicity from both sides, which includes the resolution author himself. The WA is a place for civil discussion and debate, name calling and shit throwing is frankly not fit for a nation, or it's leaders.
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Novian Republics
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Postby Novian Republics » Fri May 31, 2019 6:05 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Most, if not all, the personal attacks have been aimed at the author of the resolution. I think there has been only one genuine attempt in this thread to rebut the points made by Consular. Pretty much all of the toxicity has come from those opposing this Condemnation.

And if you think Moderator intervention is called for, please call into that forum and make a report.


You're being quite disingenuous by stating that the toxicity is only from one side, no matter how many times people suggest that the matter is black and white, that doesn't make it so. In this thread poor behaviour and attitude has been displayed by people from both of the main sides. However, it should be noted that the proponents of the resolution have made it harder for themselves to pass it by dismissing people's concerns by acting like they have a moral high ground of sorts. Had that not been done, you would probably have seen that opposition would be less, especially from new players and/or players unaware of the history of LKE.

By the way, I suggest you stop with your pointless remarks about reporting to the moderators. If it wasn't already clear, I never said that moderator intervention is called for at this moment, I was merely suggesting that it may be the case further down the line.
Last edited by Novian Republics on Fri May 31, 2019 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jocospor
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Postby Jocospor » Fri May 31, 2019 6:43 am

Worth noting is the current ideological position of NationStates. It's one thing to hate on the fascists, it's one thing to lump dictatorships in there too - but the simple monarchy? "The Land of Kings and Emperors" certainly evokes a sense of centrally-controlled governance and tradition. It would be a shame if this inaccurate resolution passed significantly aided by prejudice stemming from an unjustified stereotype.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | IMPERIAL OFFICES
JOCOSPOR | CENTRAL IMPERIAL DIREKTORATE


The Shadow Cult is rising...

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Satuga
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Postby Satuga » Fri May 31, 2019 7:31 am

Jocospor wrote:Worth noting is the current ideological position of NationStates. It's one thing to hate on the fascists, it's one thing to lump dictatorships in there too - but the simple monarchy? "The Land of Kings and Emperors" certainly evokes a sense of centrally-controlled governance and tradition. It would be a shame if this inaccurate resolution passed significantly aided by prejudice stemming from an unjustified stereotype.


Whilst somewhat true, it is certainly undeniable that there are a few nations within the region that likely does not deserve condemnation, it seems that the vast majority of the region is involved in the acts. (Also slight side note I just find it slightly funny coming from you seeing how your quote is "End democracy" lol but I digress) The Satugan people have never had favorable feelings towards monarchies and single party systems, as the potential for corruption is very high. So even then the Satugan people are likely to Condemn these nations.
Last edited by Satuga on Fri May 31, 2019 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri May 31, 2019 8:14 am

The idea that this was proposed or is passing being due to LKE being a monarchial region is ludicrous.
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Emazia
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Founded: May 04, 2019
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Emazia » Fri May 31, 2019 8:19 am

[REDACTED BY IMPERIAL ORDER]
Last edited by Emazia on Fri May 31, 2019 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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“The mutual-aid tendency in man has so remote an origin, and is so deeply interwoven with all the past evolution of the human race, that is has been maintained by mankind up to the present time, notwithstanding all vicissitudes of history.” - Peter Krotopkin,

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Armaros
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Postby Armaros » Fri May 31, 2019 8:51 am

Jocospor wrote:Worth noting is the current ideological position of NationStates. It's one thing to hate on the fascists, it's one thing to lump dictatorships in there too - but the simple monarchy? "The Land of Kings and Emperors" certainly evokes a sense of centrally-controlled governance and tradition. It would be a shame if this inaccurate resolution passed significantly aided by prejudice stemming from an unjustified stereotype.

I know you don't like fact-checking, but the idea alone that the LKE was targeted for their monarchist views made me laugh.
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RiderSyl
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Postby RiderSyl » Fri May 31, 2019 9:11 am

How unsurprising that the CCD and its ilk found the most factually detached way to criticize the proposal.

Monarchist and autocratic meritocracies have been popular on NS for years and years. Fascists have never been popular. You won't find common cause with us, so look elsewhere.
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Fri May 31, 2019 9:34 am

Emazia wrote:
Jocospor wrote:Worth noting is the current ideological position of NationStates. It's one thing to hate on the fascists, it's one thing to lump dictatorships in there too - but the simple monarchy? "The Land of Kings and Emperors" certainly evokes a sense of centrally-controlled governance and tradition. It would be a shame if this inaccurate resolution passed significantly aided by prejudice stemming from an unjustified stereotype.

The degenerate left will always, and I mean always, keep attempting to get its way. I'm not a fan of throwing unjustified stereotypes and conspiracy theories around, but it seems that the left has taken over the WA and maybe - if I dare to say it - NS as whole. Whilst I am no longer a member of the CCD, I commend HIs Imperial Majesty and the region as a whole. Shame that the left-leaning community of the WA won't let us commend such a respectable region.

I'm a 10 time SC author and I'm not a lefty nor a righter, so I don't know where you're getting your facts. The WA hasn't been taken over by one side or the other, it's leanings just change from time to time.
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