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by Kenmoria » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:45 am
by Kranostav » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:17 pm
Kenmoria wrote:“I would move the definition clause to below the ‘Hereby’ line, since it is not a perambulatory clause. Also, 3a seems overly restrictive in cases of an authoritarian or tyrannical government interfering with the operations of legal persons. I would change it so that the clause can only apply when the information is directly impacting national security, whereas currently the clause allows it in all circumstances, though stating a different goal.”
by Araraukar » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:55 pm
Kranostav wrote:Astronomical Data Repository Act
Intending to create a public database that will document and record unique astronomical data for the purpose of education and advancing astronomic study,
Cognisant of the need to compile astronomical information while not infringing on sovereign rights of nations to maintain secrecy in military and similar affairs,
This august World Assembly, in hopes of advancing education and astronomic study, hereby:
1. Defines ‘astronomical data’ for the sake of this proposal as information regarding celestial and planetary attributes, astronomical features, especially including extremely unique information/data, and the stellar coordinates containing these items,
2. Establishes an agency within the World Assembly Scientific Programme (WASP) named ‘Astronomic Science and Technical Research Organization’ (ASTRO) and tasks it with organizing collection for, administering over, and maintaining a database of astronomical data,
3. Urges nations to submit to ASTRO any relevant astronomical data they may posses involving various items defined above,
a. Contributing nations may confidentially donate to ensure any identifying characteristics are not associated with donated information,
b. Contributing nations may request a temporary hold on, or total prevention of the release and dissemination of data they have contributed should a situation arise that the donated information might compromise the safety and integrity of the contributing nation,
4. Permits non-governmental entities to contribute astronomical data to ASTRO and retain the right to negotiate for appropriate compensation,
a. Contributing non-governmental entities shall acquire approval from the national government, in which they acquired the data, before submission so as to prevent the release of sensitive or confidential data,
b. Notes that parent clause in no way forcibly requires private organizations to donate any data that they would otherwise use for monetary gain
5. Maintains that this proposal in no manner allows or promotes trespassing on national property, specifically that of stellar coordinates in the data submitted,
6. Forbids the sale and redistribution of data specifically taken from ASTRO in exchange for payment, excluding the original founder(s) of data.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Bears Armed » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:52 am
Araraukar wrote:OOC post.5. Maintains that this proposal in no manner allows or promotes trespassing on national property, specifically that of stellar coordinates in the data submitted,
"Not allowing" sounds like "intending to stop". So without a WA army, even space-based one, being possible, how's that going to work out? I'd drop the allow entirely.
by Kranostav » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:43 am
Araraukar wrote:OOC post.
Sorry I didn't get back to you in any kind of timely manner. Things happening in real life + combatting some kind of headcold or mild flu = not a lot of energy for something like NationStates. I technically shouldn't be online even now, but needing to be upright for a bit makes Internet tempting...
1.Kranostav wrote:Astronomical Data Repository Act
Could easily drop the "act" from it, without it suffering at all...
2.Intending to create a public database that will document and record unique astronomical data for the purpose of education and advancing astronomic study,
This whole thing should be started with "The World Assembly" or "The General Assembly", so that you have something that intends or is cognisant, and so on. Also, "document and record" sounds like the WA committee doing astronomical observations.
3.Cognisant of the need to compile astronomical information while not infringing on sovereign rights of nations to maintain secrecy in military and similar affairs,
What's the need? As in, why does astronomical information need to be collected in one place? Especially given that many WA nations don't exist in the same universes with one another.
4.This august World Assembly, in hopes of advancing education and astronomic study, hereby:
It's not "august", unless they've redefined "august" to mean "fighting dirty and being rude". And in any case you should start the whole thing with "The World Assembly". You could then replace this all with just "Hereby".
5.
Why on earth would you make your main clauses into list points?
6.1. Defines ‘astronomical data’ for the sake of this proposal as information regarding celestial and planetary attributes, astronomical features, especially including extremely unique information/data, and the stellar coordinates containing these items,
I can't really get my mind to accept describing stars and planets as "items". Also, what's wrong with using "celestial bodies"? That would include stars, planets, dwarf planets, planetoids, asteroids, comets and indeed anything that's "up there" and noticeable enough to have some need to be recorded. It would also exclude artificial satellites, such as space stations (in RL the ISS) or spy satellites (that of course no-one will admit to having).
I would also like to ask what's the difference between "attributes" and "features"? If the latter refers to actual planetary surface formations, that's more geographical information, not astronomical. I understand that we use astronomical gadgetry to get such information, especially in RL, but would you call, say, the Alps an "astronomical feature"?
And what counts as "extremely unique information/data"?
7.2. Establishes an agency within the World Assembly Scientific Programme (WASP) named ‘Astronomic Science and Technical Research Organization’ (ASTRO) and tasks it with organizing collection for, administering over, and maintaining a database of astronomical data,
I think the word "information" is missing between the words "organizing collection". Also what's "over" doing there? It'd read more fluently as "...tasks it with administering, maintaining and organizing information collection for a database...". Though I'm still confused with what administering it's doing.
8.3. Urges nations to submit to ASTRO any relevant astronomical data they may posses involving various items defined above,
Why only nations? If RL astronomical discoveries were only done by nation states, we'd still be living like it was year 1618 or so. Amateurs organizations, commercially sponsored professionals, various universities and just plain private citizens have contributed massive amounts of astronomical data to the common pool of science ever since people first looked up at the weird bright dots that come out at night (I know clause 4 mentions them, I'll get to that later). Also, think of something like ESA, which is a multinational space agency - would just one nation saying "nope" be enough to stop any of the data collected from being donated? And what if such an organization only had one WA nation involved, the others being non-WA nations, would the WA nation be allowed to submit the data even if the non-WA nations all said "no"?
9.a. Contributing nations may confidentially donate to ensure any identifying characteristics are not associated with donated information,
Except, you know, if said nation exists on a planet that circles a certain star and they share the info they've collected of the star, and are required to include "the stellar coordinates containing these items" as the definition says, of course everyone looking at the database will know that said nation exists on a planet that circles said star. Also, I would think that you'd get more donors of data for an international databank, if you let the donators that are not commercial ventures, to have their name(s) included in the data. Think of something like NASA in Real Life; they probably wouldn't want to give any of their data to this thing, unless the data carried the "information donated by NASA" notation.
10.b. Contributing nations may request a temporary hold on, or total prevention of the release and dissemination of data they have contributed should a situation arise that the donated information might compromise the safety and integrity of the contributing nation,
So Nation A in Universe A has submitted information about their own sun's neighbouring star to the database. Nation B in Universe B has found that information useful enough since they have a similar star in their stellar neighbourhood, and have included a few lines of text about it in their elementary school level's science books, correctly crediting the database as the source of the info.
Then Nation A in Universe A discovers that the star in question has a planet with Nation C orbiting around it, and that Nation C is interstellar and known to attack planets capable of supporting global civilizations. So Nation A wants to ban all dissemination of the data in the database about the star, since such detailed observations and the stellar coordinates given would mean that Nation C could put two and two together and get that the home star of Nation A must have a planet around it that the observations were made from, thus compromising the safety of Nation A.
Does that then mean that Nation B in Universe B, completely uninvolved in anything to do with the possible conflict or, indeed, even the universe, should send Men In Black to keep students from reading the few sentences in their science books, and teachers from teaching that such a star exists somewhere? Or would WASP send the MIBs?
11.4. Permits non-governmental entities to contribute astronomical data to ASTRO and retain the right to negotiate for appropriate compensation,
...so does that mean that WA would pay them for the info?
12.a. Contributing non-governmental entities shall acquire approval from the national government, in which they acquired the data, before submission so as to prevent the release of sensitive or confidential data,
...so I wouldn't be allowed to share the photo I took all on my own (and had it developed back in Finland), of the Solar Eclipse of 1999, in Bulgaria, with the database, without Bulgaria's permission? Why? They let me into the country knowing that I was there to see the solar eclipse in the first place. And yeah, it says "so as to prevent sensitive/confidential blah blah", but it doesn't actually say that the data needs to be something that's sensitive or confidential.
Something that's televized around the world (like the solar eclipse that was so exciting to USA peeps recently) or printed in newspapers and widely-spread magazines (to the tune of National Geographic magazine) shouldn't count for this clause. If it's "data about an internationally known phenomenon", I wouldn't include it in this requirement. And in any case I'd exclude registered astronomical organizations from checking with the government, maybe only urge them to do so. I mean, their governments know that they exist, since they gave the permission for them to become a registered organization in the first place.
Maybe instead put it in a way that lets a nation withdraw submitted data from the database, when it was submitted by non-governmental source, if and only if the nation can convince the WASP subcommittee that the data would hurt their secrets or security.
13.b. Notes that parent clause in no way forcibly requires private organizations to donate any data that they would otherwise use for monetary gain
So they can't do both? Like, say, someone uses a good quality Meade telescope (and don't joke about "made in China", that's a fairly new event) on their own backyard to take a great picture about the Moon's terminator when it's almost but not completely full. They offer the pic to the local newspaper and get some money for it, and then have it printed in a series of posters they can sell. They would then want to contribute the picture to the database, but if they did, would that mean they had to stop selling the posters?
14.5. Maintains that this proposal in no manner allows or promotes trespassing on national property, specifically that of stellar coordinates in the data submitted,
"Not allowing" sounds like "intending to stop". So without a WA army, even space-based one, being possible, how's that going to work out? I'd drop the allow entirely. And also add a requirement about obeying the local international laws and conventions, so thatsome space aliens couldn't come and make the Moon into a commercial tourist attraction if it's under the local (Earth's) international "do not commercialize" outer space treaty, that all the Earth nations are bound to.
15.6. Forbids the sale and redistribution of data specifically taken from ASTRO in exchange for payment, excluding the original founder(s) of data.
Already asked about the "must they then stop selling posters" bit earlier. Consider it to refer to this clause as well.
by Kranostav » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:43 am
Bears Armed wrote:Araraukar wrote:OOC post.
"Not allowing" sounds like "intending to stop". So without a WA army, even space-based one, being possible, how's that going to work out? I'd drop the allow entirely.
Replacing "allows" with "legalizes" would be a better way to convey what [I think] is intended to be the desired meaning.
by Araraukar » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:00 pm
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Kranostav » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:18 pm
Araraukar wrote:OOC: I'll get back to replying your points more thoroughly, but for the "confidential informatiuon" thing, maybe there could instead be an option for any nation whose soil (does it only apply to land-based or also observations done in their airspace or even low orbits? if airspace counts, then a "weather balloon" that gets launched from Nation A, drifts through Nation B's airspace, while measuring cosmic rays, and lands in Nation C is going to cause issues) the observations were made on, to have a look at the data submitted before it goes public in the database?
Though even that won't remove the issue of "observer not wanting to go through bureaucracy submitting the data and saying they got it while in a different nation (that doesn't care about such submissions) instead". Like if I'd submitted the photo of the 1999 solar eclipse, all you could do was to say that it must've been somewhere that the full shadow passed over the surface of the Earth. Given that the totality that year passed through international waters and most of central and southeast Europe, as well as southwest Asia, you'd have a hard time proving exactly where it was taken. And I really don't think that the WA committee should be forced to check the local weather conditions to try and discern whether the photo could've been taken where the person submitting it says it was taken.
Which reminds me, if historical observations can also be submitted, if the original data is held by an existing organization or person or whatever, and the nation in which they were taken has ceased to exist or the area has since gained independence (both of which have happened in RL Europe more times than one might think), which nation do you ask permission from? Also same about international airspace or sea areas (or even space) - do nations get any say about the data collected there, whether or not it contains confidential data?
by Araraukar » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:11 pm
Kranostav wrote:Or perhaps even a system where when you submit a piece of data, you must name the country from whence it came. Before that data is posted the country is informed and allowed to look over any of the data that was submitted. That would bring the weight off the civilian and onto the government which is much better able to handle it.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Kranostav » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:40 am
Araraukar wrote:Kranostav wrote:Or perhaps even a system where when you submit a piece of data, you must name the country from whence it came. Before that data is posted the country is informed and allowed to look over any of the data that was submitted. That would bring the weight off the civilian and onto the government which is much better able to handle it.
OOC: That's exactly what I suggested.
by Kranostav » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:25 pm
by Capercom » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:29 pm
Contributing nations may request a temporary hold on, or total prevention of the release and dissemination of data they have contributed should a situation arise that the donated information might compromise the safety and integrity of the contributing nation,
4. Permits privately owned entities to contribute astronomical data to ASTRO and retain the right to negotiate for appropriate compensation,
From the Desk of:
Nuky Bristow
Capercom World Assembly
Ambassador
by Bears Armed » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:04 am
Capercom wrote:[blocktext]Contributing nations may request a temporary hold on, or total prevention of the release and dissemination of data they have contributed should a situation arise that the donated information might compromise the safety and integrity of the contributing nation,
A point that I don't believe was made before, the secrecy of the data could be in relation to where the astrological data was being obtained. If the coordinates of the telescope is input with the data, and said telescope is on a secret military base...you wouldn't want that being public information. If a scientist in the military who is undercover working in another nation discovers something and sends it back to his/her home nation and they submit it...you wouldn't want that information being public. So I think this was worded properly and stands valid.
by Capercom » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:43 pm
Bears Armed wrote:Capercom wrote:[blocktext]
A point that I don't believe was made before, the secrecy of the data could be in relation to where the astrological data was being obtained. If the coordinates of the telescope is input with the data, and said telescope is on a secret military base...you wouldn't want that being public information. If a scientist in the military who is undercover working in another nation discovers something and sends it back to his/her home nation and they submit it...you wouldn't want that information being public. So I think this was worded properly and stands valid.
OOC
Without the coordinates [and time] where it was obtained, any data about the positions or movements of astronomical bodies loses most [if not all...] of its value...
... Unless you're assuming that observations are made from a flat world which is stationary at the centre of the cosmos?
From the Desk of:
Nuky Bristow
Capercom World Assembly
Ambassador
by Kranostav » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:42 am
Capercom wrote:Contributing nations may request a temporary hold on, or total prevention of the release and dissemination of data they have contributed should a situation arise that the donated information might compromise the safety and integrity of the contributing nation,
A point that I don't believe was made before, the secrecy of the data could be in relation to where the astrological data was being obtained. If the coordinates of the telescope is input with the data, and said telescope is on a secret military base...you wouldn't want that being public information. If a scientist in the military who is undercover working in another nation discovers something and sends it back to his/her home nation and they submit it...you wouldn't want that information being public. So I think this was worded properly and stands valid.
My question is, relying on the assumption that ASTRO comes out with reports/data compilations/findings/trends about all aspects space, if a nation requests data it submitted be kept confidential, does that data make it into the general pool of non-specific metrics used for other research? Does that make sense? What I'm getting at is, if a large majority of nations, for whatever reason, request confidentiality in relation to a certain subject, and by doing so ASTRO cannot use that data in any fashion, that would mean ASTRO would be putting out data with its stamp of approval via reports and studies that it knows to be not complete/incorrect at times. I see some members of the scientific community not being comfortable with that.4. Permits privately owned entities to contribute astronomical data to ASTRO and retain the right to negotiate for appropriate compensation,
Truly the only concern I have is relation to Clause 4. Coming from a very liberal nation, I find it a hard sell to get me to buy into providing compensation for private entities. This is a door I don't feel keeps the process true to the name of scientific advancement. It also opens the door for messy situations. Some of them being:
- What if a company refuses to provide data to ASTRO because they want more compensation, but it's groundbreaking information, and they decide to release their information only on their company website. Does ASTRO have the legal rights, after being denied full access to the information to input into the database, to use any of that data? I feel ASTRO couldn't without being sued. What would stop every private entity from demanding an outrageous amount of money for the sole point of rendering ASTRO null due to lack of breaking news/historic data, so they could financially benefit from it without ASTRO being the middle man?
- Are the payments to each entity subject to any tariffs or taxation from the hosting nation? Is there a dedicated wing of ASTRO that will be solely handling the thousands of nation's tax payment paperwork for verification that those nations will obviously request?
- Is it really in the nature of the W.A. to provide compensation to private organizations for the betterment of society and our understanding of the world?
I understand obtaining data costs money, but ASTRO is not trying to create a new industry market for the global economy. It's trying to expand our knowledge. There can be other non-financial benefits somehow for recognition to the contribution. Names on plaques, brochures, newsletters, documentaries on how the data was obtained, etc. But a straight, thanks for the data here's a few hundred thousand whatever your currency is feels kind of wrong to me. Something like, offering grants to the organizations instead of bartering for compensation feels more in line with a way to pay for the data that fits with what I feel is the theme of science in the W.A.
by Kranostav » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:50 am
Bears Armed wrote:Capercom wrote:[blocktext]
A point that I don't believe was made before, the secrecy of the data could be in relation to where the astrological data was being obtained. If the coordinates of the telescope is input with the data, and said telescope is on a secret military base...you wouldn't want that being public information. If a scientist in the military who is undercover working in another nation discovers something and sends it back to his/her home nation and they submit it...you wouldn't want that information being public. So I think this was worded properly and stands valid.
OOC
Without the coordinates [and time] where it was obtained, any data about the positions or movements of astronomical bodies loses most [if not all...] of its value...
... Unless you're assuming that observations are made from a flat world which is stationary at the centre of the cosmos?
by Kranostav » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:52 am
Capercom wrote:Bears Armed wrote:OOC
Without the coordinates [and time] where it was obtained, any data about the positions or movements of astronomical bodies loses most [if not all...] of its value...
... Unless you're assuming that observations are made from a flat world which is stationary at the centre of the cosmos?
Upon thinking about it further that makes sense. Astrological data is obtained by specific measurements based on location of the observer and the object. If that location data is altered/incorrect, it throws off the rest of the data and the future scientific observation and discoveries will be based on inaccuracies.
I told my boss I needed to meet with someone in the science wing of our government but he trusted my "B" in one semester of "Astronomy 101" in undergrad to be sufficient.
by Kenmoria » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:32 am
by Kranostav » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:51 am
Kenmoria wrote:“Your definition of astronomical data appears quite recursive, as both of the words are being used in the explanation itself. What makes an object astronomical? Some clarification on this point would be ideal. Other than that, I see no major issues with the proposal you are presenting.”
by Kenmoria » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:57 am
Kranostav wrote:Kenmoria wrote:“Your definition of astronomical data appears quite recursive, as both of the words are being used in the explanation itself. What makes an object astronomical? Some clarification on this point would be ideal. Other than that, I see no major issues with the proposal you are presenting.”
Would the following edit suffice as a replacement that more adequately addresses the definition?
"Defines ‘astronomical data’ for the purposes of this proposal as information regarding objects within or related to space and the practice of astronomy, their features and physical attributes, and/or the stellar coordinates containing the aforementioned data,"
by Kranostav » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:29 pm
Kenmoria wrote:Kranostav wrote:Would the following edit suffice as a replacement that more adequately addresses the definition?
"Defines ‘astronomical data’ for the purposes of this proposal as information regarding objects within or related to space and the practice of astronomy, their features and physical attributes, and/or the stellar coordinates containing the aforementioned data,"
“That seems good, yes; it’s much more precise and has less leeway for misinterpretation by member states.”
by Kranostav » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:37 am
by Kenmoria » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:40 am
by Kranostav » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:44 am
Kenmoria wrote:“Clause 4 has an a subclause then an i subclause, I believe the i should instead be a b.”
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