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[DEFEATED] Ban on Capital Punishment

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West Phoenicia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1149
Founded: Jun 25, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby West Phoenicia » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:58 pm

Xanthal wrote:I agree with the West Phoenician delegation. Right and wrong may not be a democratic question, but in the WA it has to be. Otherwise what kind of question can it be? Everybody thinks they're right; how are we to decide whose morality to follow if not by voting?


Excactly Ambassador,

We have the daunting task of voting in legislation. Each day we decide is this right or wrong for my nation and the scores of WA nations. Our legislations and our votes help shape the destiny of the world population.

This legislation is prime example. The vote to ban was defeated, but it doesnt mean they are wrong in their thinking. The nays won it doesnt mean they are right in their thinking.. Most ambassadors voted hopefully with the mindset, what is best. What is right.

Hopefully each side can go away and take new insight into what the opposing parties view points are. Let each ambassador sleep with their conscience clear. I bid adieu to the next legislation.
Last edited by West Phoenicia on Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 15246
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:04 pm

West Phoenicia wrote:
Ambassador, so are you suggesting your thought process and beliefs are right and those outside your thinking are incorrect in their thinking?

What is right to you, may in fact not be the case for what is actually right.


What is right? The universal question does not lie in you alone.


"I'm suggesting your platitudes regarding how 'everybody's opinion is special' is so much pointless drivel. Denying rights based on popularity contests is how apartheid states form."

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Nogodia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 368
Founded: Dec 11, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nogodia » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:09 pm

Happy to see it fail.
Does NOT use NS Stats. Nogodia natively means no-hope-place. Don't use religion as a casus belli like that guy.
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Xanthal
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1077
Founded: Apr 16, 2005
New York Times Democracy

Postby Xanthal » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:17 pm

Personally I've found the self-assurance of being right cold comfort when I'm on the wrong side of the General Assembly, but if it works for you Ambassador then you'll get no rebuke from me. Speaking of pointless drivel though, I think my work here is done. No sense prattling on about a closed question when the issue rears its head anew elsewhere. Time for my own adieu.
Last edited by Xanthal on Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Arasi Luvasa
Diplomat
 
Posts: 640
Founded: Aug 29, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Arasi Luvasa » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:23 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
West Phoenicia wrote:
Ambassador, so are you suggesting your thought process and beliefs are right and those outside your thinking are incorrect in their thinking?

What is right to you, may in fact not be the case for what is actually right.


What is right? The universal question does not lie in you alone.


"I'm suggesting your platitudes regarding how 'everybody's opinion is special' is so much pointless drivel. Denying rights based on popularity contests is how apartheid states form."


OOC: Ugh, I hate dealing with apartheid though now I am wondering if Afrikaans exists in this setting. Very lazy word though.

"Well if you value national sovereignty so much, I hope you will at least vote in favor of the repeal on the Reproductive Freedoms resolution. Many of those against this proposal stated that it should not be up to the World Assembly to mandate these issues, let's see how far you carry those beliefs"
Ambassador Ariela Galadriel Maria Mirase
37 year old Arch-bishop of the Arasi Christian Church (also the youngest ever arch-bishop and fifth woman in the church hierarchy). An attractive but stern woman with a strict adherence to religious and moral ethical codes, also somewhat of an optimist. She was recently appointed to the position following the election of Adrian Midnight to the position of Patriarch.

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 15246
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:30 pm

Arasi Luvasa wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
"I'm suggesting your platitudes regarding how 'everybody's opinion is special' is so much pointless drivel. Denying rights based on popularity contests is how apartheid states form."


OOC: Ugh, I hate dealing with apartheid though now I am wondering if Afrikaans exists in this setting. Very lazy word though.

"Well if you value national sovereignty so much, I hope you will at least vote in favor of the repeal on the Reproductive Freedoms resolution. Many of those against this proposal stated that it should not be up to the World Assembly to mandate these issues, let's see how far you carry those beliefs"


"Ambassador, I consider the current World Assembly laws on abortion to be more than adequate to protect the rights of persons under World Assembly jurisdiction. National Sovereignty is only valuable insofar as it produces beneficial results. In this case, the evidence proves otherwise."

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Arasi Luvasa
Diplomat
 
Posts: 640
Founded: Aug 29, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Arasi Luvasa » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:39 pm

"While we are unhappy with abortion laws in general, we find it repulsive that our nation should be forced to allow abortion up until the point of birth. A variation which forces nation to allow abortions to an extent, such as until the nervous system forms, would be acceptable. That still leaves, I believe, a few month for the woman to abort the child."
Ambassador Ariela Galadriel Maria Mirase
37 year old Arch-bishop of the Arasi Christian Church (also the youngest ever arch-bishop and fifth woman in the church hierarchy). An attractive but stern woman with a strict adherence to religious and moral ethical codes, also somewhat of an optimist. She was recently appointed to the position following the election of Adrian Midnight to the position of Patriarch.

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United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2574
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:41 pm

Jocospor wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:Ooc: you folks keep going on as if this is a milestone or watershed moment for the GA when new policies fail literally all the time. This is business as usual.

Oh, please my friend, don't be such a sore loser. Believe us, history will remember where you stood on this.

Indeed it will. The fight continues.

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 15246
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:01 pm

Arasi Luvasa wrote:"While we are unhappy with abortion laws in general, we find it repulsive that our nation should be forced to allow abortion up until the point of birth. A variation which forces nation to allow abortions to an extent, such as until the nervous system forms, would be acceptable. That still leaves, I believe, a few month for the woman to abort the child."

"You're entitled to believe what you will. This is not the proper avenue for that discussion."

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Arta
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 11
Founded: Sep 08, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Arta » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:45 pm

Ha! Glad to see such idiotic legislation fail.
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Gudmund
Envoy
 
Posts: 240
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Gudmund » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:28 pm

Scanning over her tablet, the Secretary of Civilian Security, Zoe Pontar, smirks at the replies of squabbling nations.

"What many nations in support of this resolution seem to be forgetting, is the potential economic expenses that come with replacing the death penalty. Alternative punishments, such as life imprisonment, are inefficient and costly for small and large nations alike, as these prisoners have to be provided the necessary space and resources until their eventual death."

Sighing from across the room, the Secretary of Health, Philo Moreschi stares blankly at his tablet, "Of course, its also debatable whether or not life imprisonment is a breach of human rights too. In some places its actually considered inhumane and torturous to lock another individual up for the rest of their lives, that is of course until they are potentially proven innocent, which would of course require some form of reimbursement."

"That is true I suppose," replies Zoe, staring blankly at the roof, "In fact, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of nations that don't even have prisons to house such criminals. Oh well... with us being so distant in this part of the galaxy, it doesn't really matter in the long run."

TL:DR I do not support the Banning of Capital Punishment.
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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5969
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:39 pm

Eternal Lotharia wrote:The Emperor chuckles.

"It seems justice and national liberty has prevailed. This is the start of a new era: A World Assembly, not a Global Empire."

"You're who knows how long out of date with your claimed new era, and I expect that soon this Assembly will return to the way it has been, and always will be."
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Linux and the X
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5476
Founded: Apr 29, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Linux and the X » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:40 pm

Kashida wrote:
Linux and the X wrote:We hope this will be resubmitted. Even if it fails again, we're happy to see it drain the resources of those states that believe it acceptable to kill.

This cost Kashida literally nothing to fight in fact after the first day we just kept an eye on the voting.Also how petty lose with dignity.

Well, that's lovely for you, but many states invested resources into campaigning against this, and we're happy to see them invest more. Petty? Sure, but at least we're not killing anyone.
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Elwher
Senator
 
Posts: 4437
Founded: May 24, 2012
Anarchy

Postby Elwher » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:46 pm

Linux and the X wrote:
Kashida wrote:This cost Kashida literally nothing to fight in fact after the first day we just kept an eye on the voting.Also how petty lose with dignity.

Well, that's lovely for you, but many states invested resources into campaigning against this, and we're happy to see them invest more. Petty? Sure, but at least we're not killing anyone.


The delegate from Elwher puts down his celebratory Laphroaig and addresses the group.

The important thing, in our opinion, is that any nation opposed to capital punishment is still free to ban it within their nation. This is a victory, not for execution, but for national sovereignty.
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Cosmopolitan borovan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1033
Founded: Jan 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Cosmopolitan borovan » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:11 pm

Gudmund wrote:Scanning over her tablet, the Secretary of Civilian Security, Zoe Pontar, smirks at the replies of squabbling nations.

"What many nations in support of this resolution seem to be forgetting, is the potential economic expenses that come with replacing the death penalty. Alternative punishments, such as life imprisonment, are inefficient and costly for small and large nations alike, as these prisoners have to be provided the necessary space and resources until their eventual death."

Sighing from across the room, the Secretary of Health, Philo Moreschi stares blankly at his tablet, "Of course, its also debatable whether or not life imprisonment is a breach of human rights too. In some places its actually considered inhumane and torturous to lock another individual up for the rest of their lives, that is of course until they are potentially proven innocent, which would of course require some form of reimbursement."

"That is true I suppose," replies Zoe, staring blankly at the roof, "In fact, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of nations that don't even have prisons to house such criminals. Oh well... with us being so distant in this part of the galaxy, it doesn't really matter in the long run."

TL:DR I do not support the Banning of Capital Punishment.

"Ms. and Mr. Secretary, I disagree with this. In some developed nations, the cost of executing a person is not less than the cost of housing a prisonmate. There are legal costs1, and studies and news are shown that while the execution itself is cheaper and you are placing the prisoners in less prison time, you are dealing with higher costs in trying to defend a condemned prisoner than someone serving life. Obviously, the studies and costs would vary within each country and states or provinces, but since the stakes are higher and deals with the person's life in question, you cannot say that capital punishment is cheaper than life in prison.

And when you are out there believing that capital punishment is more humane because it is unfair to stick them in a place where they don't want to be, keep in mind that in some countries euthanisia and suicide is considered illegal. If a person who hasn't committed a serious crime is suffering under mental health or physical condition, why should the prisoner be able to live more freely than the person undergoing trauma and needs to consider ending his or her own life? And if your prisons aren't there, I am not sure how do you manage to house the rest of the prisonmates."

1. [Considering the Death Penalty, Your Tax Dollars at Work, https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphill ... 0f30ed664b]

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Sefy the Great
Diplomat
 
Posts: 777
Founded: May 08, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Sefy the Great » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:21 pm

Cosmopolitan borovan wrote:
Gudmund wrote:Scanning over her tablet, the Secretary of Civilian Security, Zoe Pontar, smirks at the replies of squabbling nations.

"What many nations in support of this resolution seem to be forgetting, is the potential economic expenses that come with replacing the death penalty. Alternative punishments, such as life imprisonment, are inefficient and costly for small and large nations alike, as these prisoners have to be provided the necessary space and resources until their eventual death."

Sighing from across the room, the Secretary of Health, Philo Moreschi stares blankly at his tablet, "Of course, its also debatable whether or not life imprisonment is a breach of human rights too. In some places its actually considered inhumane and torturous to lock another individual up for the rest of their lives, that is of course until they are potentially proven innocent, which would of course require some form of reimbursement."

"That is true I suppose," replies Zoe, staring blankly at the roof, "In fact, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of nations that don't even have prisons to house such criminals. Oh well... with us being so distant in this part of the galaxy, it doesn't really matter in the long run."

TL:DR I do not support the Banning of Capital Punishment.

"Ms. and Mr. Secretary, I disagree with this. In some developed nations, the cost of executing a person is not less than the cost of housing a prisonmate. There are legal costs1, and studies and news are shown that while the execution itself is cheaper and you are placing the prisoners in less prison time, you are dealing with higher costs in trying to defend a condemned prisoner than someone serving life. Obviously, the studies and costs would vary within each country and states or provinces, but since the stakes are higher and deals with the person's life in question, you cannot say that capital punishment is cheaper than life in prison.

And when you are out there believing that capital punishment is more humane because it is unfair to stick them in a place where they don't want to be, keep in mind that in some countries euthanisia and suicide is considered illegal. If a person who hasn't committed a serious crime is suffering under mental health or physical condition, why should the prisoner be able to live more freely than the person undergoing trauma and needs to consider ending his or her own life? And if your prisons aren't there, I am not sure how do you manage to house the rest of the prisonmates."

1. [Considering the Death Penalty, Your Tax Dollars at Work, https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphill ... 0f30ed664b]

(OOC: it seems you have forgotten the old nationstates joke "Having the Death Penalty for Attempted Suicide")
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Sacara
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1753
Founded: May 13, 2014
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Sacara » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:26 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Ambassador, I consider the current World Assembly laws on abortion to be more than adequate to protect the rights of persons under World Assembly jurisdiction. National Sovereignty is only valuable insofar as it produces beneficial results. In this case, the evidence proves otherwise."
"Ambassador, the World Assembly rejected the outright ban of capital punishment because it wasn't right. It wasn't because the majority is oppressing everyone. It's more so about we care about our citizens, and we see it entirely fit to condemn to death those who commit especially heinous crimes. Stop accusing and complaining about the majority of nations of being oppressive and get your head out of your ass for once."
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Ru-
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1092
Founded: Aug 01, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ru- » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:41 pm

An alternative death penalty resolution is up for vote. There doesn't seem to have been much discussion, but we are tentatively in favor of it. Our one and only complaint would be that the term "nonviolent" interferes with executions for particularly egregious cases of high treason.

but this is an acceptable sacrifice to make in the face of the scores of nations implementing capital punishment for just any old crime. This is something we can discuss with the compliance comittee or perhaps this proposed "Division" at a later time. Or perhaps we can argue our way around this particular article.

we will support in any event.
Last edited by Ru- on Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jocospor
Diplomat
 
Posts: 911
Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Jocospor » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:41 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
West Phoenicia wrote:
But dear Ambassador it is not your right alone to dictate what is right and wrong. Just because you may feel your view on capital punishment is right and justified doesnt make it so.

Its a grey issue not a black and white issue. Same goes for abortion, euthanasia and sending men and women to war knowing they could be killed. You will never get 100% agreement to think so is selfish.

Your rights may lie with the accused or the woman wanting to abort or the person dying a painful death, other people feel the rights of the victim have been trampled on and justice needs to be served or they think of the life growing in the womb or the fact that doctors have given false diagnosis and healthy people have died or members of society feeling people with mental issues should also be euthanized.


"Ambassador, what is right is also not a democratic question. Which is why we dont permit majorities to vote minorities into oppression. That people disagree means little."


Ah yes, but what is right and wrong is subjective.

And which is why we don't permit majorities to vote minorities into oppression? Please, give us a break. The entire voting structure of the World Assembly does just that. Deny it, if you will, though you'd be fundamentally wrong. Oh - shouldn't use subjective terminology, silly us! You'd be fundamentally incorrect.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | IMPERIAL OFFICES
JOCOSPOR | CENTRAL IMPERIAL DIREKTORATE


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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 15246
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:44 am

Jocospor wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
"Ambassador, what is right is also not a democratic question. Which is why we dont permit majorities to vote minorities into oppression. That people disagree means little."


Ah yes, but what is right and wrong is subjective.

And which is why we don't permit majorities to vote minorities into oppression? Please, give us a break. The entire voting structure of the World Assembly does just that. Deny it, if you will, though you'd be fundamentally wrong. Oh - shouldn't use subjective terminology, silly us! You'd be fundamentally incorrect.


"The abmassador appears to be conflating the issue of moral right being non-democratic and the only available mechanism in the WA. I've given up on hoping your delegation's keen legal minds can notice context. Voting to enforce slavery would be wrong despite it's theoretical democratic support.

"At any rate, as your nation appears to be noncompliant with several WA nations, my nation is required to enforce economic and political sanctions against you. Which, per the Foreign Ministry, means ignoring you and pelting your delegation with rotting fruit. I dont have any fruit now, so I'll have to waive that part. It looks like there will be a shipment within the next few days."

Bell looks at the Jocospor delegation and shrugs. "Well, the law is the law, ambassador."

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Jocospor
Diplomat
 
Posts: 911
Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Jocospor » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:14 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Jocospor wrote:
Ah yes, but what is right and wrong is subjective.

And which is why we don't permit majorities to vote minorities into oppression? Please, give us a break. The entire voting structure of the World Assembly does just that. Deny it, if you will, though you'd be fundamentally wrong. Oh - shouldn't use subjective terminology, silly us! You'd be fundamentally incorrect.


"The abmassador appears to be conflating the issue of moral right being non-democratic and the only available mechanism in the WA. I've given up on hoping your delegation's keen legal minds can notice context. Voting to enforce slavery would be wrong despite it's theoretical democratic support.

"At any rate, as your nation appears to be noncompliant with several WA nations, my nation is required to enforce economic and political sanctions against you. Which, per the Foreign Ministry, means ignoring you and pelting your delegation with rotting fruit. I dont have any fruit now, so I'll have to waive that part. It looks like there will be a shipment within the next few days."

Bell looks at the Jocospor delegation and shrugs. "Well, the law is the law, ambassador."

*the Delegate's Office collectively raises all the room's eyebrows* We welcome your sanctions, though you would be wise to consider otherwise. It would bode poorly for you to be considered an official enemy of the Imperial State.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | IMPERIAL OFFICES
JOCOSPOR | CENTRAL IMPERIAL DIREKTORATE


The Shadow Cult is rising...

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 15246
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:18 am

Jocospor wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
"The abmassador appears to be conflating the issue of moral right being non-democratic and the only available mechanism in the WA. I've given up on hoping your delegation's keen legal minds can notice context. Voting to enforce slavery would be wrong despite it's theoretical democratic support.

"At any rate, as your nation appears to be noncompliant with several WA nations, my nation is required to enforce economic and political sanctions against you. Which, per the Foreign Ministry, means ignoring you and pelting your delegation with rotting fruit. I dont have any fruit now, so I'll have to waive that part. It looks like there will be a shipment within the next few days."

Bell looks at the Jocospor delegation and shrugs. "Well, the law is the law, ambassador."

*the Delegate's Office collectively raises all the room's eyebrows* We welcome your sanctions, though you would be wise to consider otherwise. It would bode poorly for you to be considered an official enemy of the Imperial State.

Bell shrugs helplessly. "Thems the rules, bud." He looks around at his desk, picks up a half-eaten granola bar, and flicks it at the Jocosporian delegation, and then shrugs again.

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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West Phoenicia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1149
Founded: Jun 25, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby West Phoenicia » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:51 am

Jocospor wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
"The abmassador appears to be conflating the issue of moral right being non-democratic and the only available mechanism in the WA. I've given up on hoping your delegation's keen legal minds can notice context. Voting to enforce slavery would be wrong despite it's theoretical democratic support.

"At any rate, as your nation appears to be noncompliant with several WA nations, my nation is required to enforce economic and political sanctions against you. Which, per the Foreign Ministry, means ignoring you and pelting your delegation with rotting fruit. I dont have any fruit now, so I'll have to waive that part. It looks like there will be a shipment within the next few days."

Bell looks at the Jocospor delegation and shrugs. "Well, the law is the law, ambassador."

*the Delegate's Office collectively raises all the room's eyebrows* We welcome your sanctions, though you would be wise to consider otherwise. It would bode poorly for you to be considered an official enemy of the Imperial State.



The Confederate Empire of West Phoenicia is happy for our Trades Minister to touch base with yours in regards to trade if you fear economic sanctions from the above nations ambassadors threats. Ambassador Baroness Margarita Too-Rak chuckles.

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PaleoAmerica
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 11
Founded: Jul 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby PaleoAmerica » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:46 am

Arta wrote:Ha! Glad to see such idiotic legislation fail.

Agreed. It's amazing that some supporting ambassadors of this acted like rude know-it-alls, and this blew up in their face.
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Die PreuBen Kaiserreich
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 123
Founded: Jan 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Die PreuBen Kaiserreich » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:00 am

PaleoAmerica wrote:
Arta wrote:Ha! Glad to see such idiotic legislation fail.

Agreed. It's amazing that some supporting ambassadors of this acted like rude know-it-alls, and this blew up in their face.

We got another one coming up. This better fail too. It's the same thing.
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