[DEFEATED] Ban on Capital Punishment

[Estado Novo Portugues]

(for religious nations that believe in salvation)

True, they won't get their mortal lives back. But if they're really innocent, they'll go to Heaven. And Heaven is much better than Earth, no?

[Sefy the Great]

(for religious nations that believe in salvation)

True, they won't get their mortal lives back. But if they're really innocent, they'll go to Heaven. And Heaven is much better than Earth, no?

oh, with permission i'm going to open the religious can of worms, and that'll truly spiral this thread into nonsense.

[Arasi Luvasa]

(for religious nations that believe in salvation)

True, they won't get their mortal lives back. But if they're really innocent, they'll go to Heaven. And Heaven is much better than Earth, no?

"And if the individual was atheist, maybe had stolen a few illirins and a loaf of bread? There are major flaws in that logic."

[Demiurges]

and you're fine with the risks if you're wrong? yes if someone innocent is killed yes its sad but one innocent is not worth 15 in my opinion.

That's why we make damn sure we have the hard evidence before we try to convict, and why our most severe punishment is life in prison.

Oh yes, because it's completely fine for a mass murderer, or a serial rapist, or a traitor leaking government information to an enemy nation, or a pedophile who kidnaps multiple children to get a life sentence where they are living, not contributing back to society, and worst of all are doing all this on tax payer dollars. Yes, let's increase taxes making citizens pay for an inmates natural lifespan to spend their lives in a room where they will never have to work, pay for room and board, and are given a base minimum of two square meals a day, aswell as functioning bathing facilities, all just so some people can claim they took the moral and ethical high ground. When the human body is infected with disease, the natural function is for a healthy body to do is to fight off and kill the infection, not to give it cuddles and go "its okay mister infection, we know you didn't mean any harm to us intentionally.".

[Arasi Luvasa]

That's why we make damn sure we have the hard evidence before we try to convict, and why our most severe punishment is life in prison.

Oh yes, because it's completely fine for a mass murderer, or a serial rapist, or a traitor leaking government information to an enemy nation, or a pedophile who kidnaps multiple children to get a life sentence where they are living, not contributing back to society, and worst of all are doing all this on tax payer dollars. Yes, let's increase taxes making citizens pay for an inmates natural lifespan to spend their lives in a room where they will never have to work, pay for room and board, and are given a base minimum of two square meals a day, as^well as functioning bathing facilities, all just so some people can claim they took the moral and ethical high ground. When the human body is infected with disease, the natural function is for a healthy body to do is to fight off and kill the infection, not to give it cuddles and go "its okay mister infection, we know you didn't mean any harm to us intentionally.".

"We are however a more complex system, a social structure. Besides based on the same argument, those infected with serious diesieses (incurable) should be sentenced to an furnance.

[Inquisitiors]

This proposal doesn’t allow for flexibility and accountability in situations where the individual poses an active threat to society.

[Demiurges]

This proposal doesn’t allow for flexibility and accountability in situations where the individual poses an active threat to society.

Because it's an all-encompassing proposal. This proposal basically states regardless of the crime, no WA nation shall oblige to Capital Punishment. Be it mass murder, rape, kidnapping, treason, or pedophilia, theres 'no excuse to execute'. The lack of attention to these crimes of the highest degree is why Demiurges is so adamantly against it.

[Xanthal]

How isn't it? While yes, somebody who has been falsely imprisoned won't get that time back, they have the rest of their lives back, and their freedom. Someone who has been falsely executed gets neither. Seems like the former is inherently infinitely preferable to the latter, ethically speaking.

If your moral code is simply "more life = better," sure. But what about quality of life? Xanthal does not believe that life's inherent value outweighs all other considerations. We believe that a person who is suffering deserves the right to end her life. We believe that a person deserves the right to end a life inside them to preserve her own prospects and freedoms. We believe that it is a waste to pour endless resources into keeping the heart of a brain dead patient beating. It is a logical extension of this line of thought that a life to be lived out in incarceration may be better not lived.

[Greater Cesnica]

I just want to put my two cents in here and say, as I support capital punishment in my personal beliefs system, I'm against this resolution. Not that I can vote or anything, but just wanted to put my opinion in

[West Phoenicia]

"Humane?" Ambassador Baroness Margarita Too-Rak exhales.

"I find myself shaking my head at those nations who are voting yes for the ban and uttering the word humane. The victims become meaningless in many of their eyes as they choose to sympathize with the criminal and not the victim. How did it get to that point where we start worrying about the feelings of the convicted and demand if a nation enforces capital punishment it be done humanely?

Its capital punishment, not a day at the local amusement park nor is is prolonged torture. Its swift justice because they broke the law and committed a heinous act. And the right to capital punishment enforcement or banning it should be held in the hands of each nation.

A young child is brutally raped? But we should care more about the rapists feelings and to ensure his death by lethal injection, hanging, gulliotone is as painless as possible. World Assembly what about that victims pain that you now overlook?

A man who commits domestic violence on his wife and one day goes to far and beats his wife to death for the simple reason that dinner was not on the table when he got home from work. He beat her so bad her own parents could not recognize her at the morgue. World Assembly, what about the victims pain that you choose to ignore by voting yes to the ban and stripping sovereign nations of their right of law to punish the offender.

World Assembly, where is the justice for the 12 church members shot dead by militant lesbian atheist ( name withheld) whose bigotry and hate led her to shoot 12 innocent people than brag about it on social media.

World Assembly, don't strip away our rights to capital punishment!

Think of the victims right to justice!
Just like in the bombing of a gay night club in a rural area of West Phoenicia by a terrorist organization known as The Puritian Collective that murdered 25 gay people enjoying a night out at a nightclub, including in that was a young man who planned to marry his life partner the next day.
Or the bombing of a primary school that left 10 dead children or the bombing of the aged care facility, that killed 30 staff and residents. Some child wont get to see their nanna now. A husband of a nurse who worked there, wont get to see his wife's face again, nor will her children.
No thoughts seem to cross the minds of some liberal ambassadors who only care about the guilty party.
The deaths of these women and children and men of every colour, creed and race are entitled to justice. Their deaths were inhumane. Think about them for a change.

The list is endless. So people who talk of ensuring that the perpetrators of these crimes is snuffed out humanely, seem to only ever care about their rights and not of the poor victims who were taken away before their time. World Assembly ambassadors, some of you may not agree with capital punishment, that is fine, ban it in your own nation but don't strip away the rights of other nations who seek further justice for the victims.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Humane?" Ambassador Baroness Margarita Too-Rak exhales.

"I find myself shaking my head at those nations who are voting yes for the ban and uttering the word humane. The victims become meaningless in many of their eyes as they choose to sympathize with the criminal and not the victim. How did it get to that point where we start worrying about the feelings of the convicted and demand if a nation enforces capital punishment it be done humanely?

Its capital punishment, not a day at the local amusement park nor is is prolonged torture. Its swift justice because they broke the law and committed a heinous act. And the right to capital punishment enforcement or banning it should be held in the hands of each nation.

A young child is brutally raped? But we should care more about the rapists feelings and to ensure his death by lethal injection, hanging, gulliotone is as painless as possible. World Assembly what about that victims pain that you now overlook?

A man who commits domestic violence on his wife and one day goes to far and beats his wife to death for the simple reason that dinner was not on the table when he got home from work. He beat her so bad her own parents could not recognize her at the morgue. World Assembly, what about the victims pain that you choose to ignore by voting yes to the ban and stripping sovereign nations of their right of law to punish the offender.

World Assembly, where is the justice for the 12 church members shot dead by militant lesbian atheist ( name withheld) whose bigotry and hate led her to shoot 12 innocent people than brag about it on social media.

World Assembly, don't strip away our rights to capital punishment!

Think of the victims right to justice!
Just like in the bombing of a gay night club in a rural area of West Phoenicia by a terrorist organization known as The Puritian Collective that murdered 25 gay people enjoying a night out at a nightclub, including in that was a young man who planned to marry his life partner the next day.
Or the bombing of a primary school that left 10 dead children or the bombing of the aged care facility, that killed 30 staff and residents. Some child wont get to see their nanna now. A husband of a nurse who worked there, wont get to see his wife's face again, nor will her children.
No thoughts seem to cross the minds of some liberal ambassadors who only care about the guilty party.
The deaths of these women and children and men of every colour, creed and race are entitled to justice. Their deaths were inhumane. Think about them for a change.

The list is endless. So people who talk of ensuring that the perpetrators of these crimes is snuffed out humanely, seem to only ever care about their rights and not of the poor victims who were taken away before their time. World Assembly ambassadors, some of you may not agree with capital punishment, that is fine, ban it in your own nation but don't strip away the rights of other nations who seek further justice for the victims.

"Suffering is not a necessary part of an execution, and criminals are, in fact, people. Requiring humanity in method does not detract from the punishment. Unless you believe the point to execution is only vengeance, of course."

[Arasi Luvasa]

"You assume that we do not sympathize with the victim because we do not wish to cause more bloodshed in their name? Have you asked the victim if they want to cause further bloodshed or is it just to satisfy your conscience?"

[Greater Cesnica]

"Humane?" Ambassador Baroness Margarita Too-Rak exhales.

"I find myself shaking my head at those nations who are voting yes for the ban and uttering the word humane. The victims become meaningless in many of their eyes as they choose to sympathize with the criminal and not the victim. How did it get to that point where we start worrying about the feelings of the convicted and demand if a nation enforces capital punishment it be done humanely?

Its capital punishment, not a day at the local amusement park nor is is prolonged torture. Its swift justice because they broke the law and committed a heinous act. And the right to capital punishment enforcement or banning it should be held in the hands of each nation.

A young child is brutally raped? But we should care more about the rapists feelings and to ensure his death by lethal injection, hanging, gulliotone is as painless as possible. World Assembly what about that victims pain that you now overlook?

A man who commits domestic violence on his wife and one day goes to far and beats his wife to death for the simple reason that dinner was not on the table when he got home from work. He beat her so bad her own parents could not recognize her at the morgue. World Assembly, what about the victims pain that you choose to ignore by voting yes to the ban and stripping sovereign nations of their right of law to punish the offender.

World Assembly, where is the justice for the 12 church members shot dead by militant lesbian atheist ( name withheld) whose bigotry and hate led her to shoot 12 innocent people than brag about it on social media.

World Assembly, don't strip away our rights to capital punishment!

Think of the victims right to justice!
Just like in the bombing of a gay night club in a rural area of West Phoenicia by a terrorist organization known as The Puritian Collective that murdered 25 gay people enjoying a night out at a nightclub, including in that was a young man who planned to marry his life partner the next day.
Or the bombing of a primary school that left 10 dead children or the bombing of the aged care facility, that killed 30 staff and residents. Some child wont get to see their nanna now. A husband of a nurse who worked there, wont get to see his wife's face again, nor will her children.
No thoughts seem to cross the minds of some liberal ambassadors who only care about the guilty party.
The deaths of these women and children and men of every colour, creed and race are entitled to justice. Their deaths were inhumane. Think about them for a change.

The list is endless. So people who talk of ensuring that the perpetrators of these crimes is snuffed out humanely, seem to only ever care about their rights and not of the poor victims who were taken away before their time. World Assembly ambassadors, some of you may not agree with capital punishment, that is fine, ban it in your own nation but don't strip away the rights of other nations who seek further justice for the victims.

"Suffering is not a necessary part of an execution, and criminals are, in fact, people. Requiring humanity in method does not detract from the punishment. Unless you believe the point to execution is only vengeance, of course."

*Slick McCooley, former representative to the WA, now honorary speaker, steps up*

"Vengeance is seen here in Greater Cesnica as the only remedy to the atrocities committed by the evil elements of a society. Vengeance brings justice, and needs not be prolonged. We aren't gutting the condemned alive. We give them a process to appeal, we give them stays, the system favors them up to the moment of execution."

[Greater Cesnica]

"You assume that we do not sympathize with the victim because we do not wish to cause more bloodshed in their name? Have you asked the victim if they want to cause further bloodshed or is it just to satisfy your conscience?"

"We must set a precedent. In Greater Cesnica, the crime rate has drastically fallen since the introduction of capital sentences for crimes like rape, torture, kidnapping, armed robbery, and the production of Class A drugs such as Heroine, Methamphetamine, PMMA, carfentanil, and the such."

[Separatist Peoples]

"Vengeance is seen her in Greater Cesnica as the only remedy to the atrocities committed by the evil elements of a society. Vengeance brings justice, and needs not be prolonged. We aren't gutting the condemned alive. We give them a process to appeal, we give them stays, the system favors them up to the moment of execution."

"Then your nation doesn't understand the goals of punishment. Retribution is an act taken to satisfy you. Punishment is an act taken to deter, rehabilitate, and isolate perpetrators. Interjecting emotional pleas for vengeance into a rational and logical situation shows a fundamental misunderstanding of criminal justice."

[Greater Cesnica]

"Vengeance is seen her in Greater Cesnica as the only remedy to the atrocities committed by the evil elements of a society. Vengeance brings justice, and needs not be prolonged. We aren't gutting the condemned alive. We give them a process to appeal, we give them stays, the system favors them up to the moment of execution."

"Then your nation doesn't understand the goals of punishment. Retribution is an act taken to satisfy you. Punishment is an act taken to deter, rehabilitate, and isolate perpetrators. Interjecting emotional pleas for vengeance into a rational and logical situation shows a fundamental misunderstanding of criminal justice."

*McCooley ponders this. Then, he continues*

"The death sentence is not guaranteed for capital offenses. It is given in the most extreme or heinous circumstances. The drive-by murder of a group of teenagers is heinous, but pales in comparison to the war rape committed by six Cesnican soldiers in Volonysk during a peace-keeping mission. The suspect in the drive-by case was spared death despite calls for his death, due to the chance for reform being observed. The military suspects in the latter case were condemned to die despite appeals by military brass to show leniency. We respect the wishes of other nations at the same time.

Punishment can indeed be allocated for capital offenses via hard labor, or sentencing to a maximum security institution that is designed to truly punish prisoners, without any unnecessary harshness."

[Separatist Peoples]

"Then your nation doesn't understand the goals of punishment. Retribution is an act taken to satisfy you. Punishment is an act taken to deter, rehabilitate, and isolate perpetrators. Interjecting emotional pleas for vengeance into a rational and logical situation shows a fundamental misunderstanding of criminal justice."

*McCooley ponders this. Then, he continues*

"The death sentence is not guaranteed for capital offenses. It is given in the most extreme or heinous circumstances. The drive-by murder of a group of teenagers is heinous, but pales in comparison to the war rape committed by six Cesnican soldiers in Volonysk during a peace-keeping mission. The suspect in the drive-by case was spared death despite calls for his death, due to the chance for reform being observed. The military suspects in the latter case were condemned to die despite appeals by military brass to show leniency. We respect the wishes of other nations at the same time."

Bell clears his throat. "You aren't gonna get anywhere using pathos with me. You can try with ethos or logos, but appeals to my emotions always fail. You've yet to describe a case that justifies state-sanctioned vengeance."

[Greater Cesnica]

*McCooley ponders this. Then, he continues*

"The death sentence is not guaranteed for capital offenses. It is given in the most extreme or heinous circumstances. The drive-by murder of a group of teenagers is heinous, but pales in comparison to the war rape committed by six Cesnican soldiers in Volonysk during a peace-keeping mission. The suspect in the drive-by case was spared death despite calls for his death, due to the chance for reform being observed. The military suspects in the latter case were condemned to die despite appeals by military brass to show leniency. We respect the wishes of other nations at the same time."

Bell clears his throat. "You aren't gonna get anywhere using pathos with me. You can try with ethos or logos, but appeals to my emotions always fail. You've yet to describe a case that justifies state-sanctioned vengeance."

"How about treason. Treason that led to the deaths of millions of Cesnican citizens in cold blood, a betrayal of the kind that Adam Reviera subjected his nation to when he collaborated with terrorist outfits associated with the Black Hawks, and relayed sensitive satellite and surveillance information that would be used to wage war on our nation on June the 2nd, 2010? Was the execution of our Minister of Commerce justified in that case, sir?"

[Demiurges]

"Then your nation doesn't understand the goals of punishment. Retribution is an act taken to satisfy you. Punishment is an act taken to deter, rehabilitate, and isolate perpetrators. Interjecting emotional pleas for vengeance into a rational and logical situation shows a fundamental misunderstanding of criminal justice."

*McCooley ponders this. Then, he continues*

"The death sentence is not guaranteed for capital offenses. It is given in the most extreme or heinous circumstances. The drive-by murder of a group of teenagers is heinous, but pales in comparison to the war rape committed by six Cesnican soldiers in Volonysk during a peace-keeping mission. The suspect in the drive-by case was spared death despite calls for his death, due to the chance for reform being observed. The military suspects in the latter case were condemned to die despite appeals by military brass to show leniency. We respect the wishes of other nations at the same time.

Punishment can indeed be allocated for capital offenses via hard labor, or sentencing to a maximum security institution that is designed to truly punish prisoners, without any unnecessary harshness."

Yes, because letting them live off taxpayer dollars by giving them a functioning job where they can earn a profit, or putting them in a prison, again funded by the state to let them live atleast more comfortably than the homeless themselves who are the very least have not committed crimes beyond redemptions is a completely appropriate and functioning way to handle a mass murderer or a serial rapist. Shall we also hug traitors of the state and give them jobs in national security after they leaked top secret blueprints to an enemy for some pocket change?

[Hogwarts Pride]

Minister McCall rises from his seat and addresses his colleges

We must also remember that some people cannot be reformed and are too dangerous to be allowed to live. These people don't care about human life or how their victims suffered, they only understand one thing, and that's violence. We in Hogwarts Pride see what these murders and rapists truly are... scum to be hung from the gallows. They forfeited their right to live when they inflicted their heinous crimes on the innocent.

[Greater Cesnica]

*McCooley ponders this. Then, he continues*

"The death sentence is not guaranteed for capital offenses. It is given in the most extreme or heinous circumstances. The drive-by murder of a group of teenagers is heinous, but pales in comparison to the war rape committed by six Cesnican soldiers in Volonysk during a peace-keeping mission. The suspect in the drive-by case was spared death despite calls for his death, due to the chance for reform being observed. The military suspects in the latter case were condemned to die despite appeals by military brass to show leniency. We respect the wishes of other nations at the same time.

Punishment can indeed be allocated for capital offenses via hard labor, or sentencing to a maximum security institution that is designed to truly punish prisoners, without any unnecessary harshness."

Yes, because letting them live off taxpayer dollars by giving them a functioning job where they can earn a profit, or putting them in a prison, again funded by the state to let them live atleast more comfortably than the homeless themselves who are the very least have not committed crimes beyond redemptions is a completely appropriate and functioning way to handle a mass murderer or a serial rapist. Shall we also hug traitors of the state and give them jobs in national security after they leaked top secret blueprints to an enemy for some pocket change?

"You seem to be disregarding the essence of what is humanity within the justice system. A mass rapist would not stand to benefit or earn a single shulling after their conviction from their crimes."

[Separatist Peoples]

Bell clears his throat. "You aren't gonna get anywhere using pathos with me. You can try with ethos or logos, but appeals to my emotions always fail. You've yet to describe a case that justifies state-sanctioned vengeance."

"How about treason. Treason that led to the deaths of millions of Cesnican citizens in cold blood, a betrayal of the kind that Adam Reviera subjected his nation to when he collaborated with terrorist outfits associated with the Black Hawks, and relayed sensitive satellite and surveillance information that would be used to wage war on our nation on June the 2nd, 2010? Was the execution of our Minister of Commerce justified in that case, sir?"

"I didn't argue that the execution was unjustified, though imprisonment was more than sufficient. I argued that state-sanctioned vengeance is never justified. Because it is never justice. Vengeance is merely self-gratification."

[Greater Cesnica]

Minister McCall rises from his seat and addresses his colleges

We must also remember that some people cannot be reformed and are too dangerous to be allowed to live. These people don't care about human life or how their victims suffered, they only understand one thing, and that's violence. We in Hogwarts Pride see what these murders and rapists truly are... scum to be hung from the gallows. They forfeited their right to live when they inflicted their heinous crimes on the innocent.

"Wrong on that count, Mr. McCall. Psychopathy is a medical disorder. In cases where the most revolting atrocities occurred, this is not a valid defense. But it paints an insight into the circumstances that led to the crime."

[Xanthal]

I agree with Ambassador Bell, at least on the point that a justice system based upon retribution is an oxymoron. However I would go further still and say that a philosophy of punishment does not serve the purposes of deterrence or rehabilitation as well as a positive model of justice. Isolation, perhaps, but every credible study shows that rehabilitation and isolation as principles are generally at odds: if the goal is reform and reintegration, ostracizing an individual is the worst course of action. Given the choice between a system that better serves one goal over the other, my choice is clear.

[Greater Cesnica]

"How about treason. Treason that led to the deaths of millions of Cesnican citizens in cold blood, a betrayal of the kind that Adam Reviera subjected his nation to when he collaborated with terrorist outfits associated with the Black Hawks, and relayed sensitive satellite and surveillance information that would be used to wage war on our nation on June the 2nd, 2010? Was the execution of our Minister of Commerce justified in that case, sir?"

"I didn't argue that the execution was unjustified, though imprisonment was more than sufficient. I argued that state-sanctioned vengeance is never justified. Because it is never justice. Vengeance is merely self-gratification."

*A silence emerges, as both men ponder the argument beforehand. Finally, McCooley decides to ease the tension.*

"I personally commend your fine nation on its progressive view on the Justice System. Right now, here in Greater Cesnica, our society needs to acclimatize to the concept of showing mercy to criminals who have committed reprehensible offenses. After all... It hasn't been eight years... Since 6/2/10."