[DEFEATED] Ban on Capital Punishment

[Uan aa Boa]

About the "nations overrun by lawlessness" I would love to see some examples. As afar as we are concerned, our high death penalty ration is only due to our recent struggle for independence and the following systematic purge of traitors, bandits and spies within the borders of our newborn country.

So while your territory is full of traitors, bandits and spies you are definitely not overrun by lawlessness. Thanks for clarifying. Does it not occur to you that systematic purges are among the most effective ways of inclining your people to future treachery, spying and banditry?

[The Earth Systems Alliance]

We fail to see the immorality of penal legions. Expandable units that do not represent important losses can be quite useful in warfare, from attrition to black ops. The president of our armed republic was considering that as an option in the unfortunate case this ghoulish death penalty ban should pass as an alternative. About the "nations overrun by lawlessness" I would love to see some examples. As afar as we are concerned, our high death penalty ration is only due to our recent struggle for independence and the following systematic purge of traitors, bandits and spies within the borders of our newborn country.

Ambassador, if you cannot see why your own statement and legal system strongly suggests a system that would send innocent people to their deaths then I am afraid there is not much room for debate here.

"Pardon me, innocent? How are rapists, murderers or traitors innocent when they committed such actions willingly?" And I am talking about those who are proven and admitted to have committed such heinous acts." says the Ambassador, while drinking a glass of rum.

[The Earth Systems Alliance]

"Yours, dear ambassador." says Sophia Romanov.

We are confused about your criticism could you elaborate?

OOC: From your spoilers down in your signature, you support independent states. That's from where I based my point. Unless those are irl, then I take it back.

[Malsti]

Ambassador, if you cannot see why your own statement and legal system strongly suggests a system that would send innocent people to their deaths then I am afraid there is not much room for debate here.

"Pardon me, innocent? How are rapists, murderers or traitors innocent when they committed such actions willingly?" And I am talking about those who are proven and admitted to have committed such heinous acts." says the Ambassador, while drinking a glass of rum.

Proven is a strong word considering the legal systems in question ambassador. The issue here has always been those poor unfortunates who are caught in a legal system that finds them guilty in spite of their innocence. No legal system is infallible, even those lacking corruption are still open to basic human error. We would strongly argue that claiming to have an infallible legal system is damning evidence of a highly corrupt, very ineffective one.

[Kashida]

We are confused about your criticism could you elaborate?

OOC: From your spoilers down in your signature, you support independent states. That's from where I based my point. Unless those are irl, then I take it back.

yeah I support independent nations I don't what I don't think I said anything to the contrary after all I'm here against the ban mainly to protect individual nations sovereignty

[Nova Trieste]

About the "nations overrun by lawlessness" I would love to see some examples. As afar as we are concerned, our high death penalty ration is only due to our recent struggle for independence and the following systematic purge of traitors, bandits and spies within the borders of our newborn country.

So while your territory is full of traitors, bandits and spies you are definitely not overrun by lawlessness. Thanks for clarifying. Does it not occur to you that systematic purges are among the most effective ways of inclining your people to future treachery, spying and banditry?

Was full of traitors, bandits and spies, with the latters being not even our citizens but foreign invaders. But alas, our efficient eradication of that scum had quite an impact on the statistics. Such is the bloody price of freedom from greedy city-states.

[Kashida]

We are confused about your criticism could you elaborate?

OOC: From your spoilers down in your signature, you support independent states. That's from where I based my point. Unless those are irl, then I take it back.

I think I see the problem, you thought I would be in favor of the ban you misread I have been adamantly against the ban from the start, that post was just one of the reasons for being against the ban

[Kyoki Chudoku]

"Pardon me, innocent? How are rapists, murderers or traitors innocent when they committed such actions willingly?" And I am talking about those who are proven and admitted to have committed such heinous acts." says the Ambassador, while drinking a glass of rum.

Proven is a strong word considering the legal systems in question ambassador. The issue here has always been those poor unfortunates who are caught in a legal system that finds them guilty in spite of their innocence. No legal system is infallible, even those lacking corruption are still open to basic human error. We would strongly argue that claiming to have an infallible legal system is damning evidence of a highly corrupt, very ineffective one.

“So you’d rather allow evil, despicable people to live and take up resources than run that risk? I don’t think that reasoning is very sound. Some people need to be punished harshly. The permanency of death is a benefit in many cases. If one is guilty, it ensures that they never strike again. Barring resurrection or something, but I’m not dealing with that here.”

[Unionist Mercia]

The forward-thinking people of Unionist Mercia strongly condemn the petty swipes exchanged between the esteemed delegates to this chamber. We, a proud people with a fierce tradition for civilised debate, expect our revered colleagues to remain civil and focus upon the pros and cons of the proposed legislation. We, as true respecters of self-determination, do not expect to see jabs at any sovereign nation's choice of governance of matters of justice, nor do we expect to see blatantly tyrannical threats bandied about by bullying giants.

Thus, on behalf of the Unionist Republic of Mercia, we move that discussion be restored to a civilised and orderly debate amongst our esteemed and venerated colleagues.

[Malsti]

Proven is a strong word considering the legal systems in question ambassador. The issue here has always been those poor unfortunates who are caught in a legal system that finds them guilty in spite of their innocence. No legal system is infallible, even those lacking corruption are still open to basic human error. We would strongly argue that claiming to have an infallible legal system is damning evidence of a highly corrupt, very ineffective one.

“So you’d rather allow evil, despicable people to live and take up resources than run that risk? I don’t think that reasoning is very sound. Some people need to be punished harshly. The permanency of death is a benefit in many cases. If one is guilty, it ensures that they never strike again. Barring resurrection or something, but I’m not dealing with that here.”

Resources ambassador? If your nation is abiding by the relevant WA legislation and not overindulging your prisoners with spa breaks and holidays to tropical destinations we struggle to see exactly how continued interment could place more of a strain on your resources than pursuing the death penalty.

[The Earth Systems Alliance]

"Pardon me, innocent? How are rapists, murderers or traitors innocent when they committed such actions willingly?" And I am talking about those who are proven and admitted to have committed such heinous acts." says the Ambassador, while drinking a glass of rum.

Proven is a strong word considering the legal systems in question ambassador. The issue here has always been those poor unfortunates who are caught in a legal system that finds them guilty in spite of their innocence. No legal system is infallible, even those lacking corruption are still open to basic human error. We would strongly argue that claiming to have an infallible legal system is damning evidence of a highly corrupt, very ineffective one.

"The Alliance legal system focuses on rehabilitation for those who committed minor crimes but for those who have committed a major crime once(not including terrorists, traitors, rapists and killers who still commit crimes after being caught) we put them to work and we try to teach them the error of their ways. Besides, crime within the Alliance is pretty low, considering our post-scarcity economy. It is mostly limited to violations of the driving law, accidental damage of property and the like. Traitors however may surface, alongside serial rapists and murderers. We try to show them the errors of their ways but if they do not cooperate they must be disposed of as a threat to the nation and every single Human being." says the Ambassador while enjoying his glass of rum.
"Can I have another one, please?"

[The Earth Systems Alliance]

OOC: From your spoilers down in your signature, you support independent states. That's from where I based my point. Unless those are irl, then I take it back.

I think I see the problem, you thought I would be in favor of the ban you misread I have been adamantly against the ban from the start, that post was just one of the reasons for being against the ban

Yeah, sorry for that xD

[Malsti]

Proven is a strong word considering the legal systems in question ambassador. The issue here has always been those poor unfortunates who are caught in a legal system that finds them guilty in spite of their innocence. No legal system is infallible, even those lacking corruption are still open to basic human error. We would strongly argue that claiming to have an infallible legal system is damning evidence of a highly corrupt, very ineffective one.

"The Alliance legal system focuses on rehabilitation for those who committed minor crimes but for those who have committed a major crime once(not including terrorists, traitors, rapists and killers who still commit crimes after being caught) we put them to work and we try to teach them the error of their ways. Besides, crime within the Alliance is pretty low, considering our post-scarcity economy. It is mostly limited to violations of the driving law, accidental damage of property and the like. Traitors however may surface, alongside serial rapists and murderers. We try to show them the errors of their ways but if they do not cooperate they must be disposed of as a threat to the nation and every single Human being." says the Ambassador while enjoying his glass of rum.
"Can I have another one, please?"

We take it then that your justice system is not infallible. Given this then ambassador, exactly what excuse does a post scarcity society have for executing someone who might be innocent?

[Kashida]

Yeah, sorry for that xD

It is no problem no harm done.

[The Earth Systems Alliance]

"The Alliance legal system focuses on rehabilitation for those who committed minor crimes but for those who have committed a major crime once(not including terrorists, traitors, rapists and killers who still commit crimes after being caught) we put them to work and we try to teach them the error of their ways. Besides, crime within the Alliance is pretty low, considering our post-scarcity economy. It is mostly limited to violations of the driving law, accidental damage of property and the like. Traitors however may surface, alongside serial rapists and murderers. We try to show them the errors of their ways but if they do not cooperate they must be disposed of as a threat to the nation and every single Human being." says the Ambassador while enjoying his glass of rum.
"Can I have another one, please?"

We take it then that your justice system is not infallible. Given this then ambassador, exactly what excuse does a post scarcity society have for executing someone who might be innocent?

"We only execute individuals whom we have concrete evidence of. We don't execute a person who violated driving laws, that's absurd. The death penalty is only used as a last resort, with the exception of traitors. For someone to be put on death row, there needs to be enough evidence to do so."

[Kyoki Chudoku]

“So you’d rather allow evil, despicable people to live and take up resources than run that risk? I don’t think that reasoning is very sound. Some people need to be punished harshly. The permanency of death is a benefit in many cases. If one is guilty, it ensures that they never strike again. Barring resurrection or something, but I’m not dealing with that here.”

Resources ambassador? If your nation is abiding by the relevant WA legislation and not overindulging your prisoners with spa breaks and holidays to tropical destinations we struggle to see exactly how continued interment could place more of a strain on your resources than pursuing the death penalty.

“Ambassador!?” Aozora prepared herself to short, but just sighed. “No, no, don’t worry. It’s simple. Death penalty? One prisoner becomes one corpse. No more food needed for them for the rest of forever. Live prisoner for life sentence? Decades worth of supplies needed. See the difference?”

[Malsti]

We take it then that your justice system is not infallible. Given this then ambassador, exactly what excuse does a post scarcity society have for executing someone who might be innocent?

"We only execute individuals whom we have concrete evidence of. We don't execute a person who violated driving laws, that's absurd. The death penalty is only used as a last resort, with the exception of traitors. For someone to be put on death row, there needs to be enough evidence to do so."

Within a legal framework, correct? Something we'd all understand as something like a trial or tribunal where evidence is presented, representatives make arguments and cases and something approaching a jury makes a decision?

Now we've agreed that such systems are not infallible, that they may result in a wrongful conviction. Given your nation has access to enough resources to be either quite literally a post scarcity society or for all intents and purposes be a post scarcity society then what exactly is your nation's excuse for condemning potentially innocent people to death?

[Nexus of Autons]

...Booting Diplomatic Unit #12U65JK
As this proposal BAN ON CAPITAL PUNISHMENT has drawn some ire and controversy to it, the central Nexuses shall give its opinion on it. _{(OOC: I got like 4 telegrams like omg this must be really controversal??)} Central Processing has decided to vote FOR this proposal, on basis that human life must be protected. Now, there might be arguments for capital punishment, either emotional or logical. This, of course means that the emotional arguments will be ignored or downplayed, as emotions are important to humans.

One of these arguments is ground on the basis of "revenge" as it is believed that because an individual committed a horrendous crime like murder; that it is justified on moral grounds to kill them as they killed another innocent. I of course, cannot understand emotions, but I am able to empathize as it is in my programming. Losing a fellow human can be painful for humans, and thus humans will want to get revenge on the same people who caused this suffering on them. I argue that this is not sane nor safe. We live in a global society that works together, are we not? If we allowed our reformation of criminals to degenerate into a system of revenge and an eye for eye, then we would not be a civilized society, and as how an eye for eye works, it will lead us to become blind. Another argument that is along these lines of punishment is that criminals deserve it, this is of course falls under the belief of revenge instead of reformation, and an eye for an eye.

There is also an argument that it persuades criminals not to commit the crime, but humans are social creatures, they do not seek to kill each other unless they are seriously disturbed. Now, do not get this machine wrong, this is not to condemn people who are mentally unwell, as in a previous existence I was used as a nursing program. When I mean seriously disturbed I do not mean mentally ill; I mean individuals who are extremely emotionally distressed to be driven to murder, or be driven by ideology that disturbs their rational thinking, and I do not like saying this as it is a mental disorder and I do not wish to demonize people with mental disorders nor do I think they are the ones that commonly commit murder but some individuals might think I am holding back if I do not bring it up; but people who lack empathy as well. All of these individuals, from the seriously emotionally disturbed, to the ones incapable of empathy, need help. The emotionally disturbed, and the ones driven by ideology will not be in the right place mentally to consider consequences for their actions; while the ones without remorse and empathy just won't care about the consequences at all, so us just killing them won't be us deterring future criminals, but us just killing people that need help.

I know that it must be terrifying for humans to be locked up for all their life, but it is not your job as flawed organic beings to play executioner, nor it is my job as a flawed and worried artificial being to play it either; and while rehabilitation would be ideal, there would be some criminals who would have to be locked up for all their life, for their own safety and others, and this wouldn't be because it is "better" for them but because it is not our place to play executioner.

It is for these reasons that Central Processing, Central Node for Nexuses of Norway, that I vote FOR on this proposal: BAN ON CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.

(OOC: I know there are more heinous crimes then murder out there that call for "capital punishment" but as I am rpping as a cold, unemotional, and logical machine I do not feel comfortable discussing it.)

[Malsti]

Resources ambassador? If your nation is abiding by the relevant WA legislation and not overindulging your prisoners with spa breaks and holidays to tropical destinations we struggle to see exactly how continued interment could place more of a strain on your resources than pursuing the death penalty.

“Ambassador!?” Aozora prepared herself to short, but just sighed. “No, no, don’t worry. It’s simple. Death penalty? One prisoner becomes one corpse. No more food needed for them for the rest of forever. Live prisoner for life sentence? Decades worth of supplies needed. See the difference?”

If you are simply taking the condemned out the back of the courthouse and shooting them in the head, then we would concede that. However if you were to do so, your justice system would struggle to measure up to WA standards.

[Arasi Luvasa]

When we will detect a real problem of unfair execution, maybe then we will consider such drastic mesures.

Could you give us a rough idea how many unfair executions would constitute a real problem? A ballpark figure would be fine.

"If we were to give our opinion, a single case. We would rather see thousands of guilty allowed to live than a single innocent executed because of human incompetence or corruption. Besides we know there are member states that would abuse capital punishment as far as they could."

[The Earth Systems Alliance]

"We only execute individuals whom we have concrete evidence of. We don't execute a person who violated driving laws, that's absurd. The death penalty is only used as a last resort, with the exception of traitors. For someone to be put on death row, there needs to be enough evidence to do so."

Within a legal framework, correct? Something we'd all understand as something like a trial or tribunal where evidence is presented, representatives make arguments and cases and something approaching a jury makes a decision?

Now we've agreed that such systems are not infallible, that they may result in a wrongful conviction. Given your nation has access to enough resources to be either quite literally a post scarcity society or for all intents and purposes be a post scarcity society then what exactly is your nation's excuse for condemning potentially innocent people to death?

"We don't have one, it's only kept as a last resort. If someone is condemned with the death penalty, the decision goes through a series of committees to make sure the decision of the court is justified. Evidence is being constantly review by both Human and Android members of the committees (OOC Androids have rights here, seemed like a good approach to a avoid a Terminator scenario) and only then, do they proceed to receive the death penalty. If however, one innocent individual is wrongly executed, however unlikely that is, we build a statue in their honour and call they become an honored individual, who has the utmost respect." said Ambassador Irons.

[Malsti]

Within a legal framework, correct? Something we'd all understand as something like a trial or tribunal where evidence is presented, representatives make arguments and cases and something approaching a jury makes a decision?

Now we've agreed that such systems are not infallible, that they may result in a wrongful conviction. Given your nation has access to enough resources to be either quite literally a post scarcity society or for all intents and purposes be a post scarcity society then what exactly is your nation's excuse for condemning potentially innocent people to death?

"We don't have one, it's only kept as a last resort. If someone is condemned with the death penalty, the decision goes through a series of committees to make sure the decision of the court is justified. Evidence is being constantly review by both Human and Android members of the committees (OOC Androids have rights here, seemed like a good approach to a avoid a Terminator scenario) and only then, do they proceed to receive the death penalty. If however, one innocent individual is wrongly executed, however unlikely that is, we build a statue in their honour and call they become an honored individual, who has the utmost respect." said Ambassador Irons.

Ambassador I may have to apologise here - your arguments and your depiction of your society place it far beyond Modern Technology. The benchmark by which World Assembly resolutions are judged is - as we understand it - Modern Technology meaning of course, no matter how interestingly you have developed your society, arguments made against this resolution that rest on your nation and its access to technology far beyond our own do not really carry weight. Thank you once again for an insight into your society.

[Arasi Luvasa]

If however, one innocent individual is wrongly executed, however unlikely that is, we build a statue in their honour and call they become an honored individual, who has the utmost respect." said Ambassador Irons.

"I fail to see how this corrects the injustice, all you have ended up doing is creating a monument to your own incompetence while congratulating yourselves on being compassionate. It is exactly the possibility of this situation which should be stamped out."

OOC: Is there anything detailing what exactly human/sentient rights are in the world of Nationstates? At the moment, human rights seems somewhat nebulous and connected primarily to RL.

[Kashida]

As there has been some confusion on the matter and that has been wrongly used to slander this nation Kashida feels it must clarify its stance on capital punishment and it legal system
1.We are a reform criminals first and foremost nation including work release, therapy, provides jobs and housing after sentence completion opt willingly into military service to shorten or in lue of jail time
2.we have penal military units BUT they are fully voluntary, and receive the same training, gear, respect, and benefits of the regular military
3.We believe in capital punishment for severe cases such as rape, murder, and war crimes and as a Kashido nation like for the rest of the Kashido race be believe in the effectiveness and necessity of capital punishment.
4.the Kashido race as a whole just got done with 200 straight years of war and 1000 years of fascist rule so Nazi level war criminals are a legitimate concern
5.There are individuals in our world powerful enough to take on armies alone and cannot be reliably imprisoned
6.We acknowledge that the system is flawed and sometime innocent people will die because of it but we view it as needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

We are Against the Capital Punishment Ban for the reasons of
1.National Sovereignty
2.Nessasity
3.Culture
4.(OOC roleplay purposes)

Sincerely Signed
KOFA (Kashidan Office of Foreign Affairs)
Foreign Affairs Counselor:Nomar Hiro

[Democratic Empire of Romania]

I am voting "For". Human dignity an rights is above all.