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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:07 pm
by Erithaca
Imperium Anglorum wrote:The words 'reasonable measures' do not appear in the submission.

Sorry. "reasonable precautions" do appear however.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:34 am
by Kenmoria
"Kenmoria is a nation with a strong belief in the free market. However, due to the relative lack of particularly crippling measures, we are FOR this proposal."

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:46 am
by Erithaca
Kenmoria wrote:"Kenmoria is a nation with a strong belief in the free market. However, due to the relative lack of particularly crippling measures, we are FOR this proposal."

The Erithacan WA delegation would like to thank you for your support. We have 100 approvals and 44 hours of remaining voting time.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:06 pm
by Erithaca
And we have hit quorum! Thanks to the 110+ who helped me out! I am excited.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:40 pm
by A Bright Future
I am glad this is going ahead. I think it is a really tightly written piece and will definitely put my support behind this!

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:46 pm
by Erithaca
A Bright Future wrote:I am glad this is going ahead. I think it is a really tightly written piece and will definitely put my support behind this!

Thanks for the support!

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:30 am
by Araraukar
Erithaca wrote:Sorry. "reasonable precautions" do appear however.

OOC: Reasonable precautions =/= reasonable measures. Also, your proposal text in this thread lies about about your AoE. See the text below. I sincerely question the chosen AoE and how exactly is it supposed to be accurate. I'd like your reply before drafting up a challenge.

Preventing Desertification

A resolution to increase the quality of the world's environment, at the expense of industry.

Category: Environmental
Industry Affected: Agriculture

The General Assembly,

Shocked at the process of desertification, which causes the loss of bodies of water as well as vegetation and wildlife,

Noting that these in turn cause famine and drought,

Understanding that a major cause of desertification is removal of vegetation,

Hereby,

1. Mandates member nations take reasonable precautions and enact reasonable regulations to reduce excessive removal of vegetation for purposes relating to agriculture and otherwise.

2. Encourages member nations to educate those involved, especially agricultural workers, on desertification.

3. Strongly encourages member nations to take part in reforestation and construction of shelter belts, woodlots and windbreaks.

4. Mandates that the WAEC shall oversee efforts against desertification and ensure that:

a) efforts are feasible, not harmful and approved by the local community and government,

b) reforestation is planned and maintained,

c) grazing is managed to prevent overgrazing,

d) water is conserved, collected and distributed in an orderly and fair manner in areas affected by desertification,

e) records are kept of areas at risk of or undergoing desertification, along with the status of any efforts against desertification.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:33 am
by Erithaca
Araraukar wrote:
Erithaca wrote:Sorry. "reasonable precautions" do appear however.

OOC: Reasonable precautions =/= reasonable measures. Also, your proposal text in this thread lies about about your AoE. See the text below. I sincerely question the chosen AoE and how exactly is it supposed to be accurate. I'd like your reply before drafting up a challenge.

Preventing Desertification

A resolution to increase the quality of the world's environment, at the expense of industry.

Category: Environmental
Industry Affected: Agriculture

The General Assembly,

Shocked at the process of desertification, which causes the loss of bodies of water as well as vegetation and wildlife,

Noting that these in turn cause famine and drought,

Understanding that a major cause of desertification is removal of vegetation,

Hereby,

1. Mandates member nations take reasonable precautions and enact reasonable regulations to reduce excessive removal of vegetation for purposes relating to agriculture and otherwise.

2. Encourages member nations to educate those involved, especially agricultural workers, on desertification.

3. Strongly encourages member nations to take part in reforestation and construction of shelter belts, woodlots and windbreaks.

4. Mandates that the WAEC shall oversee efforts against desertification and ensure that:

a) efforts are feasible, not harmful and approved by the local community and government,

b) reforestation is planned and maintained,

c) grazing is managed to prevent overgrazing,

d) water is conserved, collected and distributed in an orderly and fair manner in areas affected by desertification,

e) records are kept of areas at risk of or undergoing desertification, along with the status of any efforts against desertification.

What is an AoE? If the text here is different from the text on the WA, I will change it. I am not trying to fool anybody. Are you going to make a legality challenge?

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:48 am
by Merni
Erithaca wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Reasonable precautions =/= reasonable measures. Also, your proposal text in this thread lies about about your AoE. See the text below. I sincerely question the chosen AoE and how exactly is it supposed to be accurate. I'd like your reply before drafting up a challenge.

Preventing Desertification

A resolution to increase the quality of the world's environment, at the expense of industry.

Category: Environmental
Industry Affected: Agriculture

The General Assembly,

Shocked at the process of desertification, which causes the loss of bodies of water as well as vegetation and wildlife,

Noting that these in turn cause famine and drought,

Understanding that a major cause of desertification is removal of vegetation,

Hereby,

1. Mandates member nations take reasonable precautions and enact reasonable regulations to reduce excessive removal of vegetation for purposes relating to agriculture and otherwise.

2. Encourages member nations to educate those involved, especially agricultural workers, on desertification.

3. Strongly encourages member nations to take part in reforestation and construction of shelter belts, woodlots and windbreaks.

4. Mandates that the WAEC shall oversee efforts against desertification and ensure that:

a) efforts are feasible, not harmful and approved by the local community and government,

b) reforestation is planned and maintained,

c) grazing is managed to prevent overgrazing,

d) water is conserved, collected and distributed in an orderly and fair manner in areas affected by desertification,

e) records are kept of areas at risk of or undergoing desertification, along with the status of any efforts against desertification.

What is an AoE? If the text here is different from the text on the WA, I will change it. I am not trying to fool anybody. Are you going to make a legality challenge?

An AoE is an Area of Effect. For this category, it is referred to as an Industry Affected.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:57 am
by Erithaca
I was not trying to lie and am sorry for any trouble caused. I edited the proposal on the WA and forgot to change the forum version. The AoE is Environmental, both here on the forum and on the WA. Thanks for explaining it Merni!

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:27 am
by Auralia
What kind of role is the WAEC playing here? Advisory or regulatory?

Martin Russell
Chief Ambassador, Auralian Mission to the World Assembly

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:32 am
by Erithaca
Auralia wrote:What kind of role is the WAEC playing here? Advisory or regulatory?

Martin Russell
Chief Ambassador, Auralian Mission to the World Assembly

In the resolution, the word is "oversee". This suggests either advisory and regulatory, when appropriate.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:40 am
by Auralia
Erithaca wrote:
Auralia wrote:What kind of role is the WAEC playing here? Advisory or regulatory?

Martin Russell
Chief Ambassador, Auralian Mission to the World Assembly

In the resolution, the word is "oversee". This suggests either advisory and regulatory, when appropriate.

Another important word is "ensure", which is even stronger.

If indeed the WAEC is playing a regulatory role, then its mandate and powers should be clearly defined and limited. This is not presently the case. At the moment the resolution suggests that the WAEC can freely regulate desertification efforts (a) and forestation (b), as well as aspects of agriculture (c) and water usage (d). I think this is far too much unchecked power for an international administrative agency.

Martin Russell
Chief Ambassador, Auralian Mission to the World Assembly

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:48 am
by Araraukar
Erithaca wrote:The AoE is Environmental, both here on the forum and on the WA.

OOC: Environmental is the category. The AoE you have submitted under is Agricultural. Could you please explain to me exactly how does the proposal hinder agriculture? (Or, at least, how does it hinder agriculture more than it hinders any other industry?)

EDIT: Also what ^Auralia said.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:47 am
by Erithaca
Auralia wrote:
Erithaca wrote:In the resolution, the word is "oversee". This suggests either advisory and regulatory, when appropriate.

Another important word is "ensure", which is even stronger.

If indeed the WAEC is playing a regulatory role, then its mandate and powers should be clearly defined and limited. This is not presently the case. At the moment the resolution suggests that the WAEC can freely regulate desertification efforts (a) and forestation (b), as well as aspects of agriculture (c) and water usage (d). I think this is far too much unchecked power for an international administrative agency.

Martin Russell
Chief Ambassador, Auralian Mission to the World Assembly


I accept that "ensure" is a strong word. This proposal is, however, quite weak and needs some strength to be of any use at all. To actually get the WAEC to do anything, a verb no less stronger than "ensure" has to be used. The WAEC, being an environmental committee, might already have the powers to deal with forestation etc.

I think that, to settle the debate over the actual meaning of "oversee", we should look at dictionary or legal definitions.

According to Burton's Legal Thesaurus:
oversight(Control), noun management, superintendence, supervision, watchful care


According to Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary:
to watch or organize a job or an activity to make certain that it is being done correctly:


I should have looked at the definition of "oversee" before informing you incorrectly. Sorry. Because of the weak nature of "oversee", "ensure" should be "take all possible/reasonable/allowed steps to ensure that"


Araraukar wrote:
Erithaca wrote:The AoE is Environmental, both here on the forum and on the WA.

OOC: Environmental is the category. The AoE you have submitted under is Agricultural. Could you please explain to me exactly how does the proposal hinder agriculture? (Or, at least, how does it hinder agriculture more than it hinders any other industry?)

EDIT: Also what ^Auralia said.


Out of all the categories, it hinders agriculture the most. While it still will help agriculture greatly by preventing arable land turning into sand, it might have some negative impacts on agriculture. In 4c and possibly 4d, agriculture could be temporarily hindered. By controlling grazing, some farms working with grazing animals could have their business slowed.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:32 am
by Kenmoria
Erithaca wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Environmental is the category. The AoE you have submitted under is Agricultural. Could you please explain to me exactly how does the proposal hinder agriculture? (Or, at least, how does it hinder agriculture more than it hinders any other industry?)

EDIT: Also what ^Auralia said.


Out of all the categories, it hinders agriculture the most. While it still will help agriculture greatly by preventing arable land turning into sand, it might have some negative impacts on agriculture. In 4c and possibly 4d, agriculture could be temporarily hindered. By controlling grazing, some farms working with grazing animals could have their business slowed.

(OOC: One could also argue that one of the biggest of desertification is harvesting resources, which would make this proposal more "manufacturing". I would put this as "all businesses" instead, as there are only slight, subjective differences in how different industries will be affected by the mandates.)

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:04 am
by Erithaca
Kenmoria wrote:
Erithaca wrote:
Out of all the categories, it hinders agriculture the most. While it still will help agriculture greatly by preventing arable land turning into sand, it might have some negative impacts on agriculture. In 4c and possibly 4d, agriculture could be temporarily hindered. By controlling grazing, some farms working with grazing animals could have their business slowed.

(OOC: One could also argue that one of the biggest of desertification is harvesting resources, which would make this proposal more "manufacturing". I would put this as "all businesses" instead, as there are only slight, subjective differences in how different industries will be affected by the mandates.)

I do not think that it would be worth deleting the proposal and trying to regain 110 approvals because of an AoE. If the proposal fails at vote and I propose it again, which I probably won't, I will change the AoE. Thanks for all the help!

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:45 pm
by Zone 71
Erithaca wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: One could also argue that one of the biggest of desertification is harvesting resources, which would make this proposal more "manufacturing". I would put this as "all businesses" instead, as there are only slight, subjective differences in how different industries will be affected by the mandates.)

I do not think that it would be worth deleting the proposal and trying to regain 110 approvals because of an AoE. If the proposal fails at vote and I propose it again, which I probably won't, I will change the AoE. Thanks for all the help!

I must agree with the God of Grammar. I believe that submitting a proposal with an unsuitable AoE would mean having the bill be declared illegal. And this proposal would be more appropriately set under the "All businesses" category, as it does, in some respects, extend influence to several industries beyond agriculture. I would strongly recommend that you consult GenSec about this issue and withdraw this proposal if necessary.

EDIT: I just realized that three members of GenSec deemed this proposal legal. Please disregard my commentary.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:58 pm
by Erithaca
Zone 71 wrote:
Erithaca wrote:I do not think that it would be worth deleting the proposal and trying to regain 110 approvals because of an AoE. If the proposal fails at vote and I propose it again, which I probably won't, I will change the AoE. Thanks for all the help!

I must agree with the God of Grammar. I believe that submitting a proposal with an unsuitable AoE would mean having the bill be declared illegal. And this proposal would be more appropriately set under the "All businesses" category, as it does, in some respects, extend influence to several industries beyond agriculture. I would strongly recommend that you consult GenSec about this issue and withdraw this proposal if necessary.

EDIT: I just realized that three members of GenSec deemed this proposal legal. Please disregard my commentary.

"DISREGARD? I HAD A HEART ATTACK READING THAT! I'VE JUST FIRED THREE INTERNS FOR THAT MISTAKE!" the Erithacan WA Ambassador thunders. It's been a long day.

OOC: It's fine. Everybody makes mistakes. The AoE isn't wholly unsuitable either.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:26 am
by Araraukar
Erithaca wrote:Are you going to make a legality challenge?

OOC: Yes: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=444345

Zone 71 wrote:EDIT: I just realized that three members of GenSec deemed this proposal legal. Please disregard my commentary.

OOC: That doesn't mean anything; if they always got it 100% right in one, legality challenges wouldn't be a thing.

Environmental Safeguards

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:57 am
by Mordheimar
Distinguished Comrades, protection of the environment is of the utmost importance to the people of Mordheim. We are pleased to vote yes on this measure. Our projections show that any loss to business revenue will only be short term when compared to the staggering economic and social calamity that widespread unregulated destruction of the environment would cause.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:09 am
by The Palentine
From the Palentine delegation that lovable lush, Senator Sulla began to speak,
"You lucky bastards, I wish I could just sit and listen to myself talk all day, but that would take time away from hobnailing my liver, admiring the Thessadorian Ambassador, and canoodling with wayward catgirls. So I'll make this quick and serenade you with the Palentine's position on the matter at vote."

At this point begins to sing in a very nice baratone voice.

"Your proposition may be good,
But let's get one thing understood.
Whatever it is, I'm against it!
And even when you change it
Or condense it, I'm against it!
On general principles I'm opposed to it!"

The Economy and Environment

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:20 am
by Liberis Civitatibus
Personally, I love the environment. It's a beautiful thing. But nature will always adapt. The entire Earth can be burned away, and nature will, as it always has, return. Therefore my nation, though encourages eco-friendliness, refuses to sacrifice our industry for the environment. It would be best if we created an industry based off of the environment, thus both the economy and environment can be supported, especially the tourism industry.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:31 am
by Drescauld
President Red speaks:
"After thorough and consistent debate with the grand counsel of Drescauld, the Dresian people choose to vote against this proposition brought before us. Within the counsel we find ourselves agreeing that desertification is indeed a problem found within Drescauld and other nations within the WA, however we believe that the terms of this proposal will heavily damage and regulate agriculture and cause a stable increase to starvation and poverty at an equal rate to that of the decreasing of desertification. We, the Gold Republic, would recommend that any further proposal occupying and affecting the environment base itself off the tourism industry and its ability to be used to save the world's ecosystems, as there are many ways to preserve the natural beauty of the world. Drescauld is known well for its glorious environment and wildlife, and we are known as eco friendly indeed, however there is always a tradeoff in these ways, such a proposal being ratified leading to a decrease in global health standards and lifespans, exchanging the wellbeing of the common man for the wellbeing of the environment. And as is common in the world, we find this proposal's price too high for the given reward."

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:37 pm
by HerpDeDerp
Nighteye has given his thoughts on this issue "Yet again the left are attacking economy in hopes to save the environment. How about finding a solution that helps the environment and the economy? How about we convince a company to make a genetic modifier that is tested and made to make animals develop a better immune system, and move industry to another planet? My country would be more than happy to help poor or primitive nations move to the space age and set up industry outside of our planet. We will be voting against this resolution."