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[DEFEATED] Condemn The Communist Bloc

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Hessere
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Founded: Oct 14, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hessere » Thu May 24, 2018 4:02 pm

So, is the hate-mongering over now?
I bet you'll love NS gameplay.
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Frisbeeteria
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Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu May 24, 2018 4:06 pm

Hessere wrote:So, is the hate-mongering over now?

"Hate-mongering ends in 2 days 5 hours." Or a little longer. More likely a lot longer. Maybe until the heat death of the universe.

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Ransium
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Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Ransium » Thu May 24, 2018 4:13 pm

Nakayo wrote:This issue looks like it got enough votes to pass before anyone had time to check if it was a legal proposal.

Or it is just the ugliest loophole I have ever seen.


I ruled it legal.

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Ransium
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Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Ransium » Thu May 24, 2018 4:14 pm

Coaequales wrote:Can we not turn the WA into a "condemn people who's politics I don't like" council? This proposal was obviously written by a pathetic right-winger who's mad he can't insult minorities on TCB RMB.


Unofficial warning for flaming.

I’m just going to quote myself:

Ransium wrote: Attack the quality of the resolution all you want, but personal attacks on the author, striked or not, bring you into flaming territory. Let’s all stay away from there please.
Last edited by Ransium on Thu May 24, 2018 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Commended by SC 236,
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Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445.
Issues Editor since January 20th, 2017.
Author of 21 issues. First editor of 43.
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Imperial States of Burgh
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Founded: Mar 15, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperial States of Burgh » Thu May 24, 2018 4:45 pm

Communism is illegal in the Glorious Empire. Communism is a threat to divinely ordained government. We support the resolution.
--Julian de Lusa, Vice Chancellor and Foreign Minister of the 17th Glorious Empire.

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The Grene Knyght
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Founded: May 07, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Grene Knyght » Thu May 24, 2018 4:52 pm

Resolution would benefit from even a single in-game example of what TCB is being condemned for.
As it stands, a pretty all round terrible resolution - looks like it was penned by someone who's never played the game before and is condemning the region for having the word "communist" in its name.
     
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South Acren
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Founded: Dec 19, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby South Acren » Thu May 24, 2018 4:57 pm

Not enough evidence to support it. Some of it, I feel, was made up. Looks like the author doesn't like communists.
So I'm voting no.
Last edited by South Acren on Thu May 24, 2018 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RiderSyl
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby RiderSyl » Thu May 24, 2018 7:40 pm

To anyone arriving on this thread that understandably can't be bothered to read the previous pages, I'll TL;DR it:

This proposal is anti-communist stuff, but the accusations in it are trash, and it's almost exclusively sponsored by self-proclaimed fascist regions and players that are a part of them. If you don't support it, they call you a communist too.

This is weird stuff.
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Eco Grendina
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Founded: Apr 20, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Disgusting

Postby Eco Grendina » Thu May 24, 2018 9:50 pm

Not only does this resolution COMPLETELY oppress as previously referred to "normal liberals and pragmatic centrists" it would completely undermine the point of this game, to create and play an style of nation you wish.

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Alcohol-Related Misconduct
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Founded: Jan 11, 2015
Corporate Bordello

Postby Alcohol-Related Misconduct » Fri May 25, 2018 12:11 am

Cedoria wrote:I don't see why, I didn't banject the player in my region who argued for a vote in favour of the resolution. My position and that of my region has been transparent and open in this debate from the start. Your pals in The Iron Fortress can't say the same.


I mean, isn't it hypocritical for a communist to call someone else a "violently intolerant fascist"?

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RiderSyl
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Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Mother Knows Best State

Postby RiderSyl » Fri May 25, 2018 12:37 am

Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:
Cedoria wrote:I don't see why, I didn't banject the player in my region who argued for a vote in favour of the resolution. My position and that of my region has been transparent and open in this debate from the start. Your pals in The Iron Fortress can't say the same.


I mean, isn't it hypocritical for a communist to call someone else a "violently intolerant fascist"?


There are different variants of communism, like with any ideology. Unless Cedoria believes in a violent, intolerant variant of communism, then it's not hypocritical.

For someone that hates "commies" so much they'll rub shoulders with fascists, you don't know much about communism itself.

Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:But if this corrupt, tyranny by majority, left-wing, SJW echo chamber wants to fight, I'm not just gonna close my eyes and think of England.


It's not corrupt, of course it's tyranny by majority, most of NS is left-wing, "SJW" means nothing anymore, the SC is far from an echo chamber, the SC isn't fighting you by voting down this garbage, and leave England out of this.
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Alcohol-Related Misconduct
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Founded: Jan 11, 2015
Corporate Bordello

Postby Alcohol-Related Misconduct » Fri May 25, 2018 12:42 am

RiderSyl wrote:
There are different variants of communism.



LOL the "not real communism argument" again :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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RiderSyl
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Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Mother Knows Best State

Postby RiderSyl » Fri May 25, 2018 12:47 am

Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:
There are different variants of communism.



LOL the "not real communism argument" again


How does "There are different versions of it" read as "It's not real" to you?
Also, it's not an argument. It's literally the way communism works. There are different variants of thought.

You're not even educated on what you say you hate. I'm neutral on communism as a whole, but if I hate it in the future, I'm going to do so from a point of knowledge. You'll never be able to say the same thing.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Fri May 25, 2018 1:01 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Fri May 25, 2018 1:08 am

Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:
There are different variants of communism.



LOL the "not real communism argument" again :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Not really, no. There is a distinct difference between saying "There is more than one type of communism" and "(Example X) is not real communism."

While it's far from ideal as a source for in depth political analysis, a quick check on Wikipedia would lead you to an entire page dedicated to the most well known variants of communism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ideologies

The closest definition to communism available is a classless, moneyless and stateless society. The paths that are taken to achieve that vary wildly. Cedoria has previously advocated for something approaching Left Communism. I would imagine (and I'd have to wait and see if Cedoria would agree here) that their form of communism would have far more anarchist characteristics and likely attempt something along the lines of the implementation of grassroots participatory democracy seen in some areas of Latin America and in Spain during the Spanish Civil War. They would likely be rather disliked by Marxist Leninists for example.

Communists don't have bitter, drawn out feuds with each other because the anarchists forgot to bring the biscuits for the sixteenth time in a row.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Cedoria
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Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Fri May 25, 2018 2:04 am

Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:
Cedoria wrote:I don't see why, I didn't banject the player in my region who argued for a vote in favour of the resolution. My position and that of my region has been transparent and open in this debate from the start. Your pals in The Iron Fortress can't say the same.


I mean, isn't it hypocritical for a communist to call someone else a "violently intolerant fascist"?

No. I've never violently persecuted anybody, so I fail to see why it should be hypocritical.

Caracasus wrote:
Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:

LOL the "not real communism argument" again :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



The closest definition to communism available is a classless, moneyless and stateless society. The paths that are taken to achieve that vary wildly. Cedoria has previously advocated for something approaching Left Communism. I would imagine (and I'd have to wait and see if Cedoria would agree here) that their form of communism would have far more anarchist characteristics and likely attempt something along the lines of the implementation of grassroots participatory democracy seen in some areas of Latin America and in Spain during the Spanish Civil War. They would likely be rather disliked by Marxist Leninists for example.

Communists don't have bitter, drawn out feuds with each other because the anarchists forgot to bring the biscuits for the sixteenth time in a row.


Your basically right, lots of anarchist or council communist groups, maybe the Zapatistas in Mexico, among others. I'd consider myself a Libertarian Socialist rather than Left Communist, but my preferred form of organising it would be essential on-point with what your describing (grassroots and bottom-up, rather than top-down vanguardist elitism).
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

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Cedoria
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Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Fri May 25, 2018 2:07 am

Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:
There are different variants of communism.



LOL the "not real communism argument" again :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


That's literally not what they said. When you need to straw-man things to keep the discussion going, you've obviously lost it.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.

Nation doesn't reflect my actual views. Merely for RP purposes. If you want my real views, check my sig:)

Founding member of The Leftist Assembly

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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Fri May 25, 2018 2:13 am

Cedoria wrote:
Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:
I mean, isn't it hypocritical for a communist to call someone else a "violently intolerant fascist"?

No. I've never violently persecuted anybody, so I fail to see why it should be hypocritical.

Caracasus wrote:

The closest definition to communism available is a classless, moneyless and stateless society. The paths that are taken to achieve that vary wildly. Cedoria has previously advocated for something approaching Left Communism. I would imagine (and I'd have to wait and see if Cedoria would agree here) that their form of communism would have far more anarchist characteristics and likely attempt something along the lines of the implementation of grassroots participatory democracy seen in some areas of Latin America and in Spain during the Spanish Civil War. They would likely be rather disliked by Marxist Leninists for example.

Communists don't have bitter, drawn out feuds with each other because the anarchists forgot to bring the biscuits for the sixteenth time in a row.


Your basically right, lots of anarchist or council communist groups, maybe the Zapatistas in Mexico, among others. I'd consider myself a Libertarian Socialist rather than Left Communist, but my preferred form of organising it would be essential on-point with what your describing (grassroots and bottom-up, rather than top-down vanguardist elitism).


I figured. I've followed the Zapatistas with interest for a while, interesting methodology they have. Anyway, I'll stop there before this runs the risk of totally derailing the thread.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Alcohol-Related Misconduct
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Founded: Jan 11, 2015
Corporate Bordello

Postby Alcohol-Related Misconduct » Fri May 25, 2018 2:47 am

Cedoria wrote:
Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:

LOL the "not real communism argument" again :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


That's literally not what they said. When you need to straw-man things to keep the discussion going, you've obviously lost it.


So we're playing this game again. I say communism is bad, one of you say "that's not real communism", then you say I'm straw-manning. :rofl:

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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Fri May 25, 2018 2:52 am

Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
That's literally not what they said. When you need to straw-man things to keep the discussion going, you've obviously lost it.


So we're playing this game again. I say communism is bad, one of you say "that's not real communism", then you say I'm straw-manning. :rofl:


Well given that no-one said "that's not real communism" I don't really know how anyone is supposed to argue with what you said in reply, other than to point out that "that's not real communism" wasn't a point that was raised...

Having said that, back on topic. Are there reasons to support or not support this?
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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RiderSyl
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Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Mother Knows Best State

Postby RiderSyl » Fri May 25, 2018 3:30 am

Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:one of you say "that's not real communism"


Again, I never said that. Let's replace communism with something else that has different versions, to sum up how absurd you've acted here:

Me: "There are actually different versions of the iPhone."
You: "You're saying it's not a real iPhone!"
Me: "... no, I'm not. There are just different versions."
You: "How can you say that's not a real iPhone?"
Other people: "That's not what they said. You're just making stuff up."
You: "This is a game! One of you said it's not a real iPhone, and now I'm being accused of making things up!"

I don't why you couldn't process a simple comment of mine, but because you couldn't, this whole mess has happened.
So thanks for that.
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West Leas Oros
Minister
 
Posts: 2597
Founded: Jul 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros » Fri May 25, 2018 4:51 am

Cedoria wrote:
Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:
I mean, isn't it hypocritical for a communist to call someone else a "violently intolerant fascist"?

No. I've never violently persecuted anybody, so I fail to see why it should would agree here) that their form of communism would have far more anarchist characteristics and likely attempt something along the lines of the implementation of grassroots participatory democracy seen in some areas of Latin America and in Spain during the Spanish Civil War. They would likely be rather disliked by Marxist Leninists for example.

Communists don't have bitter, drawn out feuds with each other because the anarchists forgot to bring the biscuits for the sixteenth time in a row.

Your region aligns itself with destructive allies, and you don’t raise a finger to stop it.
Just your friendly neighborhood democratic socialist revisionist traitor.
PMT nation. Economically to the left of Karl Marx. Social justice is a bourgeois plot.
Brothers and sisters are natural enemies, like fascists and communists. Or libertarians and communists. Or social democrats and communists. Or communists and other communists! Damn commies, they ruined communism!"

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Oros, no. Please. You were the chosen one. You were meant to debunk the tankies, not join them. Bring balance to the left, not leave it in darkness.

WLO Public News: Protest turns violent as Orosian Anarchists burn building. 2 found dead, 8 injured. Investigation continues.

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West Leas Oros
Minister
 
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Founded: Jul 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros » Fri May 25, 2018 5:02 am

RiderSyl wrote:
Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:But if this corrupt, tyranny by majority, left-wing, SJW echo chamber wants to fight, I'm not just gonna close my eyes and think of England.


It's not corrupt, of course it's tyranny by majority, most of NS is left-wing, "SJW" means nothing anymore, the SC is far from an echo chamber, the SC isn't fighting you by voting down this garbage, and leave England out of this.

1. While not corrupt, several extremist communists have been currying favor in the WA
2. I have no problem with leftists on NS, but a certain group called the NS Left, a coalition of terrorists.
3. SJW may be misused, but their overall ideals are similar to those championed by the NS Left
4. Actually, no. The SC shows a clear bias. La Nav’s Neoliberation debacle proves the SC is politically charged.
5. True, but what does it say when regions with unpopular opinions are liberated on ideological grounds? How is this different? It’s not even a liberation, but we can apparently only condemn ideologies you disagree.
Just your friendly neighborhood democratic socialist revisionist traitor.
PMT nation. Economically to the left of Karl Marx. Social justice is a bourgeois plot.
Brothers and sisters are natural enemies, like fascists and communists. Or libertarians and communists. Or social democrats and communists. Or communists and other communists! Damn commies, they ruined communism!"

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Oros, no. Please. You were the chosen one. You were meant to debunk the tankies, not join them. Bring balance to the left, not leave it in darkness.

WLO Public News: Protest turns violent as Orosian Anarchists burn building. 2 found dead, 8 injured. Investigation continues.

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Cedoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5518
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Fri May 25, 2018 5:11 am

Alcohol-Related Misconduct wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
That's literally not what they said. When you need to straw-man things to keep the discussion going, you've obviously lost it.


So we're playing this game again. I say communism is bad, one of you say "that's not real communism", then you say I'm straw-manning. :rofl:

Except that not a single one of us said that it's not "Real communism".


Go and quote me or Caracasus or anybody else on this thread saying that. You can't. Because we didn't.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.

Nation doesn't reflect my actual views. Merely for RP purposes. If you want my real views, check my sig:)

Founding member of The Leftist Assembly

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Cedoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5518
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Fri May 25, 2018 5:14 am

West Leas Oros wrote:
Cedoria wrote:No. I've never violently persecuted anybody, so I fail to see why it should would agree here) that their form of communism would have far more anarchist characteristics and likely attempt something along the lines of the implementation of grassroots participatory democracy seen in some areas of Latin America and in Spain during the Spanish Civil War. They would likely be rather disliked by Marxist Leninists for example.

Communists don't have bitter, drawn out feuds with each other because the anarchists forgot to bring the biscuits for the sixteenth time in a row.

Your region aligns itself with destructive allies, and you don’t raise a finger to stop it.


I don't see why The Red Fleet should be prevented from attacking violent Fascist regions. But this is not an argument relevant to The Communist Bloc and this thread, since they are not a member, and not particularly friendly with The Red Fleet anyway. I've certainly got my issues with some members of some regions who align with TRF, no question about that, but they also do much good work that I support. One needn't throw out the good along with the bad.

Discuss TRF and our relations with them in another thread if you wish however, as this is veering wildly off topic.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.

Nation doesn't reflect my actual views. Merely for RP purposes. If you want my real views, check my sig:)

Founding member of The Leftist Assembly

User avatar
West Leas Oros
Minister
 
Posts: 2597
Founded: Jul 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros » Fri May 25, 2018 5:16 am

Cedoria wrote:
West Leas Oros wrote:Your region aligns itself with destructive allies, and you don’t raise a finger to stop it.


I don't see why The Red Fleet should be prevented from attacking violent Fascist regions. But this is not an argument relevant to The Communist Bloc and this thread, since they are not a member, and not particularly friendly with The Red Fleet anyway. I've certainly got my issues with some members of some regions who align with TRF, no question about that, but they also do much good work that I support. One needn't throw out the good along with the bad.

Discuss TRF and our relations with them in another thread if you wish however, as this is veering wildly off topic.

While I would very much love to debate why you are wrong about TRF, you are right, this is wildly off topic.
Just your friendly neighborhood democratic socialist revisionist traitor.
PMT nation. Economically to the left of Karl Marx. Social justice is a bourgeois plot.
Brothers and sisters are natural enemies, like fascists and communists. Or libertarians and communists. Or social democrats and communists. Or communists and other communists! Damn commies, they ruined communism!"

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Oros, no. Please. You were the chosen one. You were meant to debunk the tankies, not join them. Bring balance to the left, not leave it in darkness.

WLO Public News: Protest turns violent as Orosian Anarchists burn building. 2 found dead, 8 injured. Investigation continues.

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