[PASSED] Repeal "Crime and Punishment"

[Marcianus]

Sad how so many people have become soft to the point where they're against capital punishment. Pathetic.

"Its not really a question of being soft. Its a matter of not wanting a judicial system that fails essentially to avoid injustice, inefficiencies, or irreversible failures."

Yeah, and you can only do that by banning capital punishment, instead of, well, by improving your terrible nation in the first place? Hell, with that logic, we should ban guns, they protect people, but they can be used badly as well.

[Berlania]

Every WA country has the right to set their own laws that follow the minimum standards of the World Assembly. It’s fine if you do not want to permit capital punishment in your country, but just because you do not agree, doesn’t mean you get to tell everyone else how they should handle criminals that take someone’s right to life away. If anything, this is an attempt to impose your beliefs on every nation.

[Marcianus]

Every WA country has the right to set their own laws that follow the minimum standards of the World Assembly. It’s fine if you do not want to permit capital punishment in your country, but just because you do not agree, doesn’t mean you get to tell everyone else how they should handle criminals that take someone’s right to life away. If anything, this is an attempt to impose your beliefs on every nation.

That's why the WA exists. New laws in the WA are made to impose an opinion on other nations. Laws are made from opinion.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Its not really a question of being soft. Its a matter of not wanting a judicial system that fails essentially to avoid injustice, inefficiencies, or irreversible failures."

Yeah, and you can only do that by banning capital punishment, instead of, well, by improving your terrible nation in the first place? Hell, with that logic, we should ban guns, they protect people, but they can be used badly as well.

"Capital punishment removes the opportunity to unmake a legal error. Incarceration can be ended and compensation paid out, but if exculpatory evidence arises after sentencing...well, that's that."

[Sciongrad]

"Its not really a question of being soft. Its a matter of not wanting a judicial system that fails essentially to avoid injustice, inefficiencies, or irreversible failures."

Yeah, and you can only do that by banning capital punishment, instead of, well, by improving your terrible nation in the first place? Hell, with that logic, we should ban guns, they protect people, but they can be used badly as well.

OOC: Hey, please share your nation's secret for an absolutely perfect criminal justice system that under no circumstances incorrectly sentences people to prison. The pleb countries of the world with mere mortal justice systems would love to know.

[Xanthal]

"Its not really a question of being soft. Its a matter of not wanting a judicial system that fails essentially to avoid injustice, inefficiencies, or irreversible failures."

"Capital punishment removes the opportunity to unmake a legal error. Incarceration can be ended and compensation paid out, but if exculpatory evidence arises after sentencing...well, that's that."

That throwing money at someone constitutes compensation for years or decades in prison is... I'm not sure I can properly articulate how callously mercantile and morally craven a notion that is. Miscarriages of justice are always regrettable, but the past can never be undone. To indulge the fantasy that what has already happened can be changed is not productive, for either the criminal or the court. What is productive is understanding how and why it happened and taking steps to do better in the future. That is the justice which Xanthalian courts dispense, and the philosophy by which they improve- that which looks forward, not backward.

As to the matter of efficiency, that can be measured in many aspects, the selection and balancing of which will depend greatly on the one doing the measuring. Without greater clarity as to your own definition, I can only respond that the Federation regards execution as a more efficient remedy for a criminal who is deemed unreformable than prescribing an arbitrary term of captivity and hoping that something changes. A more humane one at that.

[Separatist Peoples]

That throwing money at someone constitutes compensation for years or decades in prison is... I'm not sure I can properly articulate how callously mercantile and morally craven a notion that is.

"Compensating somebody for lost wages and personal damages is hardly craven. It puts the person in a financial place they would likely have been but for the error."

Miscarriages of justice are always regrettable, but the past can never be undone. To indulge the fantasy that what has already happened can be changed is not productive, for either the criminal or the court.

"Guess we should shove literally all tort law out the window then. Or had you even considered the ramifications of your claim?"

What is productive is understanding how and why it happened and taking steps to do better in the future. That is the justice which Xanthalian courts dispense, and the philosophy by which they improve- that which looks forward, not backward.

"Ah, I hadn't realized you've cracked the code to a perfect legal system."

As to the matter of efficiency, that can be measured in many aspects, the selection and balancing of which will depend greatly on the one doing the measuring. Without greater clarity as to your own definition, I can only respond that the Federation regards execution as a more efficient remedy for a criminal who is deemed unreformable than prescribing an arbitrary term of captivity and hoping that something changes. A more humane one at that.

"The idea that killing somebody based on the efficiency of a system which, by virtue of it's construction by fallible people, is itself fallible, is utterly laughable, ambassador. Doubly so when you try to lecture the callousness of compensating the falsely imprisoned but finding execution to be anything less than callous.

"Why do we let the Orcs into the chamber anymore?"

[Xanthal]

It's the idea that one would consider financial compensation to "reverse" a prison term I find craven, not the notion of compensation itself. I make no claims of perfection in regards to the Xanthalian legal system, but I do believe its tenets are superior to the punitive model most of the room seems to be taking for granted. Your sarcasm aside, that you'd even suggest an implied assertion to that effect does indicate that on some level you believe it represents an ideal, which I take as a compliment to my country and thank you accordingly.

To your larger point though, the possibility of error is present in everything we do, as individuals or as part of a group or system; I believe we can agree at least upon that. My contention is with the bizarre understanding of certain parties that a lengthy prison sentence with no firm expectation that the condemned will emerge healthier or with a contribution to society outweighing his criminal tendencies is somehow more merciful than ending his life. Merciful to whom? To the individual who is now to suffer through this captivity with his rights and freedoms stripped away, for the rest of his life or only to be cut loose with prospects no better than they were when he began his sentence? Or to the society which now must live in apprehension of this individual's return? And should it be found, after some time, that he was not a criminal to begin with, what would have been the greater mercy- a quick and painless death, or the years or decades of confinement with their consequences to be forever lived with? I simply do not see this moral high ground you seem to assume that you hold.

I hesitate to even pick up your last thread, as it is at best tangential to the subject at hand, but for the sake of thoroughness, the Xanthalian justice system does not entertain tort law in the sense which it is usually understood- which is to say in the common law tradition. There are certainly mechanisms for deciding private disputes. As I am not an expert however, and as I expect neither you nor the members of the Assembly at large really care to begin with, I will leave aside a lengthy monologue regarding the arcane details of our legal tradition.

Also, orcs? Forgive me, I believe I'm missing a reference.

[Wallenburg]

"Why do we let the Orcs into the chamber anymore?"

The ogre grabbed Bell by the collar and lifted him to eye level. An eye level made ever more apparent by the decorative scars under the ogre's eyes, indicating his completion of very painful and dangerous rituals, and marking him as a very strong warrior in his own right. During this, the sack falls to the floor, spilling the grisly contents of the former Sergeant Lupinski's head, sans the ears.

"I kill, you pay! i'Fhan'i ny drach'ki, ke? i'fhan'i isrusk juj kavam shok'gran. Maybe kill you instead, yes?"

Because they do this.

[The Palentine]

I suppose if this abortion passes, and the ban of Capital Punishment is successful, my nation will just have to bring back the sentence of Life with no parole with hard labor. There's a lot of big rocks that need to be broken into smaller rocks.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

[The Lazy Scrublands]

By decree of the Princess, the Shogunate is formally in opposition to this resolution as it denies even just criminals the right to an honorable death and prevents the rot of society from being properly cleansed as is needed in a lawful world. It is the firm belief of the country that such a binding on liberty would be poison to the world.
May the kingdom of justice reign eternally.

[Jocospor]

Imperial analysts would like to point out that clause a) of the repeal resolution at vote directly contravenes clauses 9 and 10 of the original GA#375.

Clause a) reads:

"...the finality of the death penalty prevents the state from correcting any errors made in the legal and conviction processes, thereby inevitably condemning to death certain innocent individuals,..."

while clauses 9 and 10 of GA#375 read:

"...9. Requires member nations to take every possible measure to ensure that innocent people are never executed, and further requires members to conduct regular studies of death-penalty cases to verify that proper legal procedures are followed before convicted persons are put to death;..."

"...10. Requires member nations to delay any execution wherein the accused may have been denied essential legal protections during their trial or appeal process, and not to carry out any death sentence until it can be verified that the convicted person was not unfairly or unlawfully condemned;..."

Clause a) of Repeal: “Crime And Punishment” is entirely based upon the assumption that nations sentencing criminals to death are unable to do so without condemning at least one innocent person. This is a slanderous and grossly unfair presupposition of every member nation within the World Assembly. As World Assembly compliance commissions are free from corruption and above fault, so too should be the legal formalities of member nations in the eyes of this organisation. Otherwise, based upon the above assumption, a vast majority of World Assembly legislation will be unjustly overturned.

The Imperial Empire calls upon the General Secretariat to intervene.

[The Palentine]

Imperial analysts would like to point out that clause a) of the repeal resolution at vote directly contravenes clauses 9 and 10 of the original GA#375.

Clause a) reads:

"...the finality of the death penalty prevents the state from correcting any errors made in the legal and conviction processes, thereby inevitably condemning to death certain innocent individuals,..."

while clauses 9 and 10 of GA#375 read:

"...9. Requires member nations to take every possible measure to ensure that innocent people are never executed, and further requires members to conduct regular studies of death-penalty cases to verify that proper legal procedures are followed before convicted persons are put to death;..."

"...10. Requires member nations to delay any execution wherein the accused may have been denied essential legal protections during their trial or appeal process, and not to carry out any death sentence until it can be verified that the convicted person was not unfairly or unlawfully condemned;..."

Clause a) of Repeal: “Crime And Punishment” is entirely based upon the assumption that nations sentencing criminals to death are unable to do so without condemning at least one innocent person. This is a slanderous and grossly unfair presupposition of every member nation within the World Assembly. As World Assembly compliance commissions are free from corruption and above fault, so too should be the legal formalities of member nations in the eyes of this organisation. Otherwise, based upon the above assumption, a vast majority of World Assembly legislation will be unjustly overturned.

The Imperial Empire calls upon the General Secretariat to intervene.

File a legality challenge with the mods for the Festering Snakepit.

[Jocospor]

How do we go about doing that? We shall. Such a proceeding is warranted.

[Separatist Peoples]

How do we go about doing that? We shall. Such a proceeding is warranted.

Ooc: I wouldn't if I were you. Your challenge wouldn't succeed.

"Why do we let the Orcs into the chamber anymore?"

The ogre grabbed Bell by the collar and lifted him to eye level. An eye level made ever more apparent by the decorative scars under the ogre's eyes, indicating his completion of very painful and dangerous rituals, and marking him as a very strong warrior in his own right. During this, the sack falls to the floor, spilling the grisly contents of the former Sergeant Lupinski's head, sans the ears.

"I kill, you pay! i'Fhan'i ny drach'ki, ke? i'fhan'i isrusk juj kavam shok'gran. Maybe kill you instead, yes?"

Because they do this.

"Hey now, I had nothing to do with that! I didn't even know my government had put a price on that psychopath's head, let alone literally."

[New Min]

How do we go about doing that? We shall. Such a proceeding is warranted.

OOC: If you decide to file a legality challenge, you can find the instructions here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=401599

[Jocospor]

Ooc: I wouldn't if I were you. Your challenge wouldn't succeed.

That's right. We forgot the General Secretariat was partial.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

Ooc: I wouldn't if I were you. Your challenge wouldn't succeed.

That's right. We forgot the General Secretariat was partial.

OOC: Tell yourself whatever you need to. I will point out the reason I am unsympathetic to your argument: it's based on the cheesiest, campiest, most masturbatory possible interpretation of mandatory compliance imaginable. I'll let a more articulate fella than myself explain:

OOC: While what you've said is much more realistic and conducive to interesting roleplay, the "magical compliance" school of thought has taken hold, wherein it is literally impossible not to have perfect compliance with WA law. This was seen for example during the Repeal ICC debate, where it was actually said, for example:

There is no genocide to try because genocide has been banned by the WA and compliance is mandatory.

There's no genocide because the WA passed a law against it! Well, that was simple. And hey, the WA has also banned rape! Now let's pass some laws against poverty, disease, death, too! Gene Roddenberry eat your fucking heart out!

So no, I don't think your argument holds water. The very existence of the WACC, which you acknowledge, gives the lie to your most basic assumption.

[Separatist Peoples]

Ooc: I wouldn't if I were you. Your challenge wouldn't succeed.

That's right. We forgot the General Secretariat was partial.

OOC: SL beat me to why you're wrong, but just in case you needed the reinforcement: You Are Wrong.

[Last Man Standing]

is thanks to those capitalist states we have this nonsense resolutions, if they weren't corrupt like they are they could reinforce their security force and avoid sentence inocent ppl, in Last Man Standing there are no innocents, we have security cams everywhere: in the streets,in the trees, in the homes, in the bedrooms and even in the bathrooms, our people feels unconfortable but they are safe so... there's no place we can't see you and we can prove you are a criminal even in a 4k HD 360°resolution btw they have the chance of choose between the lethal inyection or participate in our tv show "tyranosaurus vs gladiators" so if they win(survive) they achieve not only his freedom they also become a famous tv star so they can change their life, and thank Stalin they removed that slow capitalist resolution because the 7th season of the show is ending and we need more victims i mean participants for the 8th one.

[The Earth Systems Alliance]

The Alliance will not back this proposal as some people are irredeemable, particularly mass murderers and terrorists

[Jocospor]

OOC: While what you've said is much more realistic and conducive to interesting roleplay, the "magical compliance" school of thought has taken hold, wherein it is literally impossible not to have perfect compliance with WA law.

But what is possible is that WA compliance commissions are themselves perfect? We'll always contest that. [OOC: We'll contest that in-character, we know full well how the game is regrettably engineered.]

I will point out the reason I am unsympathetic to your argument: it's based on the cheesiest, campiest, most masturbatory possible interpretation of mandatory compliance imaginable.

Such enthusiastic language, dear friend! Of course, we knew the General Secretariat was unrepresentative of the NationStates community and biased towards its own agenda - now we know it's rude as well.

[Wallenburg]

But what is possible is that WA compliance commissions are themselves perfect? We'll always contest that. [OOC: We'll contest that in-character, we know full well how the game is regrettably engineered.]

OOC: Committees are considered to be run by gnomes, who are uncorrupted and impartial in all things. This is to permit authors to write legislation without dedicating pages of additional clauses to handling corruption, bias, inefficiency, etc. within committees.

[Dragonvista]

The Alliance will not back this proposal as some people are irredeemable, particularly mass murderers and terrorists

"Neither will the Queendom of Dragonvista," Queen Alethia declares, and stalks off, shaking her head in disgust.

[Tinhampton]

Repeal "Crime and Punishment" was passed 11,284 votes to 3,827.