[PASSED] Liberate KAISERREICH

[Lenlyvit]

Look, Dallas, my recommendation is you find another German region, such as one modeled on the modern Federal Republic, or one that tries to live up to the kaiserreich name while brooking no fascists.

I might just found my own region and invite puppets of those I know aren’t Nazi or heavy fascist to join Incase KR implodes. Thanks for the concern.

I'm pretty sure the kaiserreich is such a region that doesn't hold with the same stuff KAISERREICH does.

[The New Texan Republic Of Dallas]

I might just found my own region and invite puppets of those I know aren’t Nazi or heavy fascist to join Incase KR implodes. Thanks for the concern.

I'm pretty sure the kaiserreich is such a region that doesn't hold with the same stuff KAISERREICH does.

I just want a place to RP, and maybe a new region could be better than the original.

[Kurnugia]

You seem like a nice dude. Honestly, why don't you leave your region? There are many nice regions out there.

It’s like I have been in one area too long and the out side seems too hostile. I once left the region for a region that had been formed from a separatist movement and they tried going to war with KR 4 different times so I always kept a smidge of care for the poor place, think of the region like a neighborhood and the houses and families as the nation and groups of peoples occupying the region, just because some are bad, is it fair the brand the whole as evil?

Trust me, the outside world is waaaay nicer than whatever region KR is today. Ever considered a feeder? Those have a wide pallet of activities. I understand what you feel, a feeling of insecurity in the face of the unknown, I've been there once. If you are not a complete arse, you will be greeted with open arms. You only will regret that you did not do this sooner.

Also, it's not a few bad apples are not a big deal but a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

[The New Texan Republic Of Dallas]

It’s like I have been in one area too long and the out side seems too hostile. I once left the region for a region that had been formed from a separatist movement and they tried going to war with KR 4 different times so I always kept a smidge of care for the poor place, think of the region like a neighborhood and the houses and families as the nation and groups of peoples occupying the region, just because some are bad, is it fair the brand the whole as evil?

Trust me, the outside world is waaaay nicer than whatever region KR is today. Ever considered a feeder? Those have a wide pallet of activities. I understand what you feel, a feeling of insecurity in the face of the unknown, I've been there once. If you are not a complete arse, you will be greeted with open arms. You only will regret that you did not do this sooner.

Also, it's not a few bad apples are not a big deal but a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

True, still refounding the region under new management might work but I am not one to advocate for replacing them by force

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Trust me, the outside world is waaaay nicer than whatever region KR is today. Ever considered a feeder? Those have a wide pallet of activities. I understand what you feel, a feeling of insecurity in the face of the unknown, I've been there once. If you are not a complete arse, you will be greeted with open arms. You only will regret that you did not do this sooner.

Also, it's not a few bad apples are not a big deal but a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

True, still refounding the region under new management might work but I am not one to advocate for replacing them by force

When I'm not sure if I want to move regions, I'll put a puppet into the other region and try and stay active on both for a bit; if you're going to move then that puppet will slowly become your main I find.

[Oakrugia]

You have my support.

[Hinodia]

A few active and edgy neo-fascists on a Discord server doesn’t mean an entire region needs to die. No support.

[Fauxia]

A few active and edgy neo-fascists on a Discord server doesn’t mean an entire region needs to die. No support.

What if that fascism (more specifically, nazism) is rooted in the region, a part of its establishment?

[Jar Wattinree]

It's for when the founder CTEs, as a preemptive measure.


lmao

KAISERREICH claims it is not fascist or Nazi and instead says it is German Empire themed. Yet, when we look at the evidence, they not only tolerate it amongst their ranks but refuse to change by eliminating it when it is brought to their attention. A proper Gameplay-conscious region would purge those elements from its ranks, or at the very least keep them suppressed and secure. If KReich was smarter, they would have locked those "joking" channels behind citizen masks so your random Joe wouldn't be able to take screenshots of its own Discord channels containing the very evidence you claim is not representative of the region.

Have you seen our past history, if we started purging now, we might have another separatist movement or heavy attacks on the government like spam attacks or or just flat out spam posting of insults and threats in rmb and that would call for tens or even hundreds of page s to be supressed.

If that is what it will take to clear your name, then I highly advise that you take whatever measures possible to save KAISERREICH. Or, alternatively, look for a better German-themed region.

They, at least, own up to the label. Sticking to your beliefs is better than trying to deny what is obvious.

I don't see how a Nazi region owning up to the label means that we should redirect our attention to who isn't even a Nazi region.

---

My point is that a lot less of their breath and thought would be taken up by denial, and they'd instead find better usage of those resources into finding other arguments. At the very least they wouldn't try to say they can't see the elephant when it is about to step on them.

The region perhaps may not endorse being Nazi, or fascist, but it does contain and tolerate members who do espouse such things, even if it is jokingly done. As I've said before, in every other region and chat I've been in, the admin staff is quick to kick out anybody who engages in these jokes, if they are not persuaded beforehand by members of the community to delete their jokes. A prominent Feeder I hang out in, The East Pacific, is quite known for its memes and jokes -- especially in their Discord -- but they keep things on a leash and it never gets out of hand without an admin saying "That's enough". Queen Yuno can answer any questions.

Even if the region contains and tolerates members who "espouse such things, even if it is jokingly done", why does it matter? Isn't it the point to find the region to be Nazi/fascist (support by the region, practiced by the region), and not a section of a region's population to be so?

---

Why does it matter? Because it reflects badly on a government who cannot even self-moderate. Thus it behooves the World Assembly to do what KAISERREICH cannot, that is to moderate via force if necessary. The threat of the WAD and ROs being unable to PW the region once the Founder CTEs should be enough to convince even the most diehard of folk not toeing the line.

Does "regionally endorsed Nazism" include allowing memes about the Jews and Holocaust denial in Discord channels that aren't even hidden from random Joes who wander into the server? In the mind of the greater Gameplay community, this is legitimate reason enough, plus the aforementioned individuals you tolerate to be among your ranks.

And again, your right to a community isn't being taken away. Your Founder still stands. You'd fall either way without a Liberation when your Founder CTEs. This is just a formality.

Allowing memes about the Jews and Holocaust denial in free-to-see Discord channels doesn't mean endorsement or any support of that at all.

Incorrect, it means you support the attitudes and behavior of people who endorse and support it. Kids these days. Tolerance is a virtue, as preached by many, but quickly becomes a vice when it allows far too many things to undermine what allowed tolerance to exist in the first place.

Lack of moderation doesn't mean support.

---

True, but this means KAISERREICH cannot even control its members. Why does it even have a bad reputation in the first place if not for these same people? Surely if you want to say you aren't fascist or Nazi, but then fail to back up those claims when it is plain to see that not only can you not self moderate but have absolutely no desire to do so at all.

[Kiyevskuyu Slavyane]

"Appalled by KAISERREICH’s apparent disregard towards others, as well as the regions use of Nazi propaganda and swastikas;"

In what manner has there even been the use of a swastika within the NS and/or Discord. Because I am in both, and within the discord the only time the use of a swastika has been used is in a joking way.
Following "Nazi" propaganda, a majority of their posters which have been converted to their needs, are originally that from WWI. During the reign of the KAISER, not Furher. Others from the Inter-war period PRE-Nazi control of Germany.

Condemn due to blatant overreaction from liberals and left-wing hysteria.

[Scheinenland]

I am a citizen and Regional Officer of Agia Germania. As someone who has served as Kaiserreich's Intelligence Director and Minister of Propaganda many times now, I can assure anyone that no Nazi ideals are supported in Kaiserreich. Kaiserreich is purely based on the German Empire, and Nazis have been suppressed in the past. Kaiserreich never discriminates against anyone's beliefs, and will always be a region of respect to all people. This Liberation is pointless and should be destroyed.

[Lenlyvit]

I am a citizen and Regional Officer of Agia Germania. As someone who has served as Kaiserreich's Intelligence Director and Minister of Propaganda many times now, I can assure anyone that no Nazi ideals are supported in Kaiserreich. Kaiserreich is purely based on the German Empire, and Nazis have been suppressed in the past. Kaiserreich never discriminates against anyone's beliefs, and will always be a region of respect to all people. This Liberation is pointless and should be destroyed.

Tell that to the screenshots taken directly from KREICH's discord server.

"Appalled by KAISERREICH’s apparent disregard towards others, as well as the regions use of Nazi propaganda and swastikas;"

In what manner has there even been the use of a swastika within the NS and/or Discord. Because I am in both, and within the discord the only time the use of a swastika has been used is in a joking way.
Following "Nazi" propaganda, a majority of their posters which have been converted to their needs, are originally that from WWI. During the reign of the KAISER, not Furher. Others from the Inter-war period PRE-Nazi control of Germany.

Condemn due to blatant overreaction from liberals and left-wing hysteria.

They had a Nazi Swastika in the background of their forum for quite some time.

[Princess Luna Gangleader of Boil Heights]

A few active and edgy neo-fascists on a Discord server doesn’t mean an entire region needs to die. No support.

A few active and edgy neo-fascists on a Discord server doesn’t mean an entire region needs to die. No support.

What if that fascism (more specifically, nazism) is rooted in the region, a part of its establishment?

Abstain.

[Hemuraile]

I don't see how a Nazi region owning up to the label means that we should redirect our attention to who isn't even a Nazi region.

---

My point is that a lot less of their breath and thought would be taken up by denial, and they'd instead find better usage of those resources into finding other arguments. At the very least they wouldn't try to say they can't see the elephant when it is about to step on them.

I don't have anything to say here besides that "KR is not a Nazi region."

Even if the region contains and tolerates members who "espouse such things, even if it is jokingly done", why does it matter? Isn't it the point to find the region to be Nazi/fascist (support by the region, practiced by the region), and not a section of a region's population to be so?

---

Why does it matter? Because it reflects badly on a government who cannot even self-moderate. Thus it behooves the World Assembly to do what KAISERREICH cannot, that is to moderate via force if necessary. The threat of the WAD and ROs being unable to PW the region once the Founder CTEs should be enough to convince even the most diehard of folk not toeing the line.

It's not that the government can't self-moderate, but that the government decides not to self-moderate because these are just [albeit shitty] jokes. Plus, how does it suddenly behoove the World Assembly to moderate the region? I don't see why the World Assembly should take the role of moderating because of the actions of not even the region or its government, but of a section of the region.
The purpose of the WA, specifically the SC, is to "Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary", not to moderate a region based on a few people in a region that some people say has not done "anything significant on NationStates" ^{(https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=437736&p=33621513#p33621513)}, something which comes off as "control freak" to me.

Allowing memes about the Jews and Holocaust denial in free-to-see Discord channels doesn't mean endorsement or any support of that at all.

Incorrect, it means you support the attitudes and behavior of people who endorse and support it. Kids these days. Tolerance is a virtue, as preached by many, but quickly becomes a vice when it allows far too many things to undermine what allowed tolerance to exist in the first place.

No, it does not. If I were to own a Discord server, and had a group of communists or fascists who espouse their ideology in one of the channels, I would allow them to, but that doesn't mean I support their attitudes and behavior.

Lack of moderation doesn't mean support.

---

True, but this means KAISERREICH cannot even control its members. Why does it even have a bad reputation in the first place if not for these same people? Surely if you want to say you aren't fascist or Nazi, but then fail to back up those claims when it is plain to see that not only can you not self moderate but have absolutely no desire to do so at all.

Wait, didn't you just say that was incorrect, or is it because if it is about Holocaust/Jew memes that it suddenly is not true? Or because "allow" and "not moderate" mean different things?

[Lord Dominator]

Roughly 36 hours from posting to submission, and we're up to 11 pages.
I can't wait to see where we get with voting for four days

[The Fatheland]

As with the las proposal you have the full support of Kaiserreich. While condemnation was preferrable, we take what we can get.

[Princess Luna Gangleader of Boil Heights]

As with the las proposal you have the full support of Kaiserreich. While condemnation was preferrable, we take what we can get.

Fatherland, that sounds like a bold challenge.

[Hemuraile]

Roughly 36 hours from posting to submission, and we're up to 11 pages.
I can't wait to see where we get with voting for four days

200 approvals by the time the sun sets in Japan.

[Princess Luna Gangleader of Boil Heights]

Already the proposal got 10 more approvals since that last 20 minutes. It will likely reach quorum.

[Jar Wattinree]

Why does it matter? Because it reflects badly on a government who cannot even self-moderate. Thus it behooves the World Assembly to do what KAISERREICH cannot, that is to moderate via force if necessary. The threat of the WAD and ROs being unable to PW the region once the Founder CTEs should be enough to convince even the most diehard of folk not toeing the line.

It's not that the government can't self-moderate, but that the government decides not to self-moderate because these are just [albeit shitty] jokes. Plus, how does it suddenly behoove the World Assembly to moderate the region? I don't see why the World Assembly should take the role of moderating because of the actions of not even the region or its government, but of a section of the region.
The purpose of the WA, specifically the SC, is to "Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary", not to moderate a region based on a few people in a region that some people say has not done "anything significant on NationStates" ^{(https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=437736&p=33621513#p33621513)}, something which comes off as "control freak" to me.

Merely existing is sufficient enough for most people to count as "anything significant".

Incorrect, it means you support the attitudes and behavior of people who endorse and support it. Kids these days. Tolerance is a virtue, as preached by many, but quickly becomes a vice when it allows far too many things to undermine what allowed tolerance to exist in the first place.

No, it does not. If I were to own a Discord server, and had a group of communists or fascists who espouse their ideology in one of the channels, I would allow them to, but that doesn't mean I support their attitudes and behavior.

There's a fine line between tolerating it and supporting it. In the eyes of most GPers, tolerance equals support. As I've said elsewhere, every region I've been in has a zero-tolerance policy for these kinds of unacceptable content. KReich not only does not take the precaution of securing these channels behind special masks but leaves it open for everyone to see.

Regardless of whether or not you support these attitudes, the fact of the matter is KReich doesn't care who sees it, and this has opened the can of worms that is plaguing you right now, since it can be construed that KReich supports it through its very inaction. How many more "dancing around the bush" exceptions will we have to go before the point is made emphatically and firmly?

True, but this means KAISERREICH cannot even control its members. Why does it even have a bad reputation in the first place if not for these same people? Surely if you want to say you aren't fascist or Nazi, but then fail to back up those claims when it is plain to see that not only can you not self moderate but have absolutely no desire to do so at all.

Wait, didn't you just say that was incorrect, or is it because if it is about Holocaust/Jew memes that it suddenly is not true? Or because "allow" and "not moderate" mean different things?

I suppose it is a failure on my part to distinguish between "lack of moderation" and "support". I shall reiterate my above paragraph and will stick to it: lack of moderation is equal to passive support. If the government does not care enough to squash this unsavoury behavior, then it supports it implicitly, and no amount of "but what about this exception here?" arguments will change that fact.

[USS Monitor]

It's for when the founder CTEs, as a preemptive measure.


lmao

KAISERREICH claims it is not fascist or Nazi and instead says it is German Empire themed. Yet, when we look at the evidence, they not only tolerate it amongst their ranks but refuse to change by eliminating it when it is brought to their attention. A proper Gameplay-conscious region would purge those elements from its ranks, or at the very least keep them suppressed and secure. If KReich was smarter, they would have locked those "joking" channels behind citizen masks so your random Joe wouldn't be able to take screenshots of its own Discord channels containing the very evidence you claim is not representative of the region.

Have you seen our past history, if we started purging now, we might have another separatist movement or heavy attacks on the government like spam attacks or or just flat out spam posting of insults and threats in rmb and that would call for tens or even hundreds of page s to be supressed.

Do you know what you can use against people that spam threats on your RMB, and it doesn't cost any influence to use? The GHR page.

[Oresland]

"What's the purpose of this? No password in place, nothing to liberate. Just a waste of time for everybody. Against

[Routcher]

Looks like the gentlemen at KR are trying to larp as Imperial Germans, but since nobody can be bothered to learn what "Reich" means, I guess we'll go through this every few months, huh?

[Kavagrad]

Looks like the gentlemen at KR are trying to larp as Imperial Germans, but since nobody can be bothered to learn what "Reich" means, I guess we'll go through this every few months, huh?

There is significant evidence (someone posted it here, but removed it as it may have been rulebreaking, although it still exists in quotes in this thread) of Nazi elements in their region that their leaders, for one reason or another, have failed to deal with, either by incompetence or by choice. If they acted to remove those elements, I doubt that this proposal would have any support. Alas, here we are.

[Breezelandia]

Supported